GETTING AN EDUCATION

[cyyz]

But never fear. Those that don't have a degree will in due time sue the Government that they're being discriminated against.

Damn I'm good..

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... hub=Canada

"The Grade 10 literacy test unfairly discriminates against disabled students and those whose first language isn't English, says a group of Ontario parents fighting to see their children graduate high school.

There are ESL students who are getting straight A's in high school in the academic stream and they're not going to be allowed to go on to university because of this test,"

ROFL.. That's funny, reminds me of a peer who didn't know how to speak a lick of english but magically got A's on all her English written assignments.

Either the teacher was being nice with the marking or taking her "disability" into consideration. Which means she was discriminating against those who didn't play the ESL card.

But like I said. See, people already complaining they're not allowed to graduate..

Bring back the good ol' days when people could fail elementary school. Today everyone graduates and gets A's no big deal...

[smartass]

Both of them also require a significant amount of effort on the individual getting them, they prove you have good learning skills, and lastly they also give you a marketable skill that can be useful in the aviation world. But there is one major difference between them and a University degree: cost.

Yet both the airlines and the military treat these extra skills as irrelevant compared to having a degree. If cost is the only difference then all we're doing is separating the rich from the poor. Not that it isn't possible to become rich first - but we all know what a high paying gig this aviation deal is.

umm....


Trade 4 years of paid work a few months of easy... easy courses
Diploma 2 years commitment of somewhat difficult coarses
Degree 4 years commitment of some very difficult coarses

I've been involved in all of the outlined education and you can't compare them. Have you ever noticed that the majority of people with a trade under their belt didn't have the grades to make it to College. Also I transferred my diploma to a U to finish my degree and my GPA plummeted. Obtaining a trade requires no commitment in that you aren't sacraficing anything to learn. A Diploma requires two years of not making money while spending the majority of your time with your head in the books. A Degree requires 4 years at a much more intensive level.

It's like ranking the applicants at a level of skill proven. The person with the degree is the highest skilled applicant and as such he is offered a DEO position. It shows that he has spent four years without earning a descent income for the possibility to learn something. As such the military thought it was neccessary to award him for his time and effort. The other skills will help for the person who is applying as a regular applicant not a DEO.

[smartass]

Greenwich said:

So essentially you are saying that a bunch of high school graduates may have done a better job with A/C than Milton and his current group of Lawyers, MBA's, Business School grads, etc.

Not likely!

One of the problems with pilots is that we all live in our own little world and have very little exposure to other facets of life like the 'corporate world'! We start flying at 18, get our first ramp job at 20, and then wake-up one day in the left seat of a Boeing!

I see you’re doing an excellent job of upholding the “people with attitude problems” image that I was talking about.

It is possible that an experienced group of managers with a "Lowly High School Education" may well have done better. Who knows? All things are possible.

ummm... I thought Lawyers had to pass a bar exam and take eight years of intensive schooling because it was a very specialised skill.

Are you suggesting that a highschool grad should start performing operations rather than Doctors? I guess Doctors have attitude problems.

What I believe Greenwich was trying to point out is that in order for Milton to run Air Canada he needed to know the various concepts involved in business and surround himself with people who had extensive schooling in very specific areas.

Imagine replacing his Lawyers with high school graduates who have real world experience testifying in court. He'd have law suits coming out of his wazoo. Sure businesses can be very successful with owners that have no formal education but to hire someone with such experience and surround him with a bunch of people who haven't spent a large portion of their lives studying a variety of business concepts, would be a suicide path for any large corporation.

I know of several people who have created very successful businesses for themeselves including my father. They started small and learned slowly step by step as they gradually grew in size. The only thing that they have studied is how their company/business runs. To remove them from that environment and put them in charge of a multi million dollar corporation with more subsections than you can imagine, would be ridiculous. The only uneducated applicant that would be considered would be someone already running a large corporation in the industry like Westjet's CEO. Sure someone may have spent the time studying all the business concepts learned in a MBA of business and may know just as much as the applicant that actually holds the paper but how can an employer know this? Do you pick the guy who shows you his test results or the guy who tells you his self scored test results.

[smartass]

I'd like to point out that I don't put myself on a higher horse than my co-workers because I have an education. Unfortunately a lot of my co-workers who found out that I have a BA suddenly developed their own attitudes towards me. I was suddenly laughed at whenever I made a simple mistake and everyone felt that I should know better.

Point in case, the spelling mockery that goes on here. Sure people should have a grasp of their mother tongue but if someone can cure cancer do I really care whether or not he can spell mississippi (is that right?) without the spell checker? Also acceptance to University and most degrees out there require English 12 and several University level english coarses. The ones that don't spend that time studying specific knowledge in a totally unrelated subject. Are you saying that U grads have worse spelling skills than high school dropouts? Do you really want to have a spelling bee between University grads and trade students? Any predicitions on the outcome?

If you feel that people with a degree have an attitude, look at if you treat them differently. At times I probably do show some attitude because I feel that everyone around me is constantly questioning my intelligence.

[cyyz]

ummm... I thought Lawyers had to pass a bar exam and take eight years of intensive schooling because it was a very specialised skill.

Ontario, ROFL. 5-7 years ago, everyone failled the Bar Exam. The thing is that the highest marks "pass." So we have 20 "lawyers" because the bar is a scam.

Are you suggesting that a highschool grad should start performing operations rather than Doctors? I guess Doctors have attitude problems.

Toronto, had a "doctor" charging ohip for 20 years in excess of 20 million. They found out he had no degrees and "fined" him $250,000 and told him to stop.. Yes.. Everyone can do it.. You think the Shamans of the third world nations went to Universities when they were healing their people? Education is a scam created by lawyers and doctors so they could protect their trade it's their own personal union..

Imagine replacing his Lawyers with high school graduates

Everyone here was arguing they have the Air Canada act to contend with, didn't they think of having their lawyers do work and try to amend the act??? Think the High School students would have been just as useless.

who haven't spent a large portion of their lives studying a variety of business concepts, would be a suicide path for any large corporation.

Think they spent several million on their accountants.. Ummm, they made no profit yet he got a "bonus." Seems like these professionals are causing their demise..

Do you pick the guy who shows you his test results or the guy who tells you his self scored test results.

You pick the best candidate.. That's what interviews are for. If he's dull, long winded and boring and has high marks he can fark himself. If he has people skills he's got my vote. If he's got high marks and great personality bonus. =)

I was suddenly laughed at whenever I made a mistake and everyone felt that I should know better.

Yet, silently you don't laugh at them when they do something wrong, "lol, I learnt that in my first year class?"

If you don't do that, you're one of very few people that doesn't belittle their fellow man.

but if someone can cure cancer do I really care whether or not he can spell mississippi (is that right?) without the spell checker?

And would I really care if he had a PhD before he can get a grant? Before he's taken seriously by those with an education? Just like the dropout in the east coast who created the alternative fuel for cars, but wasn't taken seriously for 10 years because he was a drop out.

http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp

"began programming computers at age 13. "

Not a high school drop out but a university drop out. I could probably paste all the brain children too.

Universities/Education are a facade.. "oh you went to a University." Blah.. read the book/text/manual. You'll have the same knowledge as the next university student.

Application has to do with genetics and personal skills no university can give you that. You either got it or you don't and being in the right place at the right time.

That's why many of the boomers got an education after they were VPs, CEO's etc.

[Yoyoma]

Going to school doesn't make you smarter...

It's a stimulation tool that uses educational techniques to push the grey matter towards intelligent growth. This growth occurs when the brain is confronted to foreign yet understandable knowledge, which will be analyzed, memorized and used. It doesn’t' work for everyone!

I agree that a PhD doesn't mean a thing...But personally, I would think twice before arguing about optronics with a holder of a PhD in nano-optronic technology...! Wouldn't you?

I also read a lot of medical books but I refrain from giving medical advice to my Doctor.

We studied to become pilots and other forms of education ARE valuable and are a nice added value to your portfolio...

Cheers

[Shiny Side Up]

umm....


Trade 4 years of paid work a few months of easy... easy courses
Diploma 2 years commitment of somewhat difficult coarses
Degree 4 years commitment of some very difficult coarses

Difficult in this case is a relative term. While your typical trades man probably can't write a good thesis, your average doctor can't figure out how to put up drywall despite my best teachings. Paid work is just that - its work. Or why do you think most kids with money like to go to school? When was the last time you were on a construction site? Or spent a day in a shop? Give me the class room anytime. Now plant this on top of your "easy" course load. Now all of the above of course are relative to one another definitely a BSc in Medicine is more difficult to get than a BA in say Jazz Appreciation - yet both are respected as degrees. By the same token getting your ticket as a welder or AME is a little more demanding than getting your ticket in say Aromatherapy.

I've been involved in all of the outlined education and you can't compare them.

Exactly. But here we are. You're comparing a degree and saying its better than any other type of experience or education.

Have you ever noticed that the majority of people with a trade under their belt didn't have the grades to make it to College. Also I transferred my diploma to a U to finish my degree and my GPA plummeted. Obtaining a trade requires no commitment in that you aren't sacraficing anything to learn.

Have you also noticed how a lot of universities regularly drop their requirements when they have low enrollment? One year I needed a 85% HS average the next I needed a 75%. Besides, if you're planning on fixing cars for the rest of your life why bust your ass to get yourself prepared for university? Which is what the public school system is designed for - lets face it, everyone can't go to university.

A Diploma requires two years of not making money while spending the majority of your time with your head in the books. A Degree requires 4 years at a much more intensive level.

Who says you can't make money? The few truly hard workers I know who've gone to university had a job the entire time they were there. Maybe if you had a ton of money to start with though you might be able to go with the keep your head in your books plan.

It's like ranking the applicants at a level of skill proven. The person with the degree is the highest skilled applicant and as such he is offered a DEO position. It shows that he has spent four years without earning a descent income for the possibility to learn something. As such the military thought it was neccessary to award him for his time and effort. The other skills will help for the person who is applying as a regular applicant not a DEO.

I've also spent the last four years learning without a decent income but that doesn't put me in the same boat as someone who might have a piece of paper in his hand. Highest skilled applicant is once again relative, because having a degree doesn't prove skill.

[shitdisturber]

[



It's like ranking the applicants at a level of skill proven. The person with the degree is the highest skilled applicant and as such he is offered a DEO position. It shows that he has spent four years without earning a descent income for the possibility to learn something. As such the military thought it was neccessary to award him for his time and effort. The other skills will help for the person who is applying as a regular applicant not a DEO.

In a word, BS Having been in the military I can assure you that's not why they use the DEO program. It's a simple matter of economics; someone with a degree can be commissioned as soon as they get through basic. A considerable savings for our cash strapped military. To put a candidate through RMC, or the civilian institution of their choice for four years is a wee bit more expensive.

[smartass]

Ontario, ROFL. 5-7 years ago, everyone failled the Bar Exam. The thing is that the highest marks "pass." So we have 20 "lawyers" because the bar is a scam.

The highest marks pass... so where does this exam start becoming a scam? The smartest most dedicated move on in their education once again proving their intelligence.

Toronto, had a "doctor" charging ohip for 20 years in excess of 20 million. They found out he had no degrees and "fined" him $250,000 and told him to stop.. Yes.. Everyone can do it.. You think the Shamans of the third world nations went to Universities when they were healing their people? Education is a scam created by lawyers and doctors so they could protect their trade it's their own personal union..

Does this mean I can start doing brain surgury on you... by the sounds of it, you need it.

Everyone here was arguing they have the Air Canada act to contend with, didn't they think of having their lawyers do work and try to amend the act??? Think the High School students would have been just as useless.

Yup and when that piece of foam came off the shuttle we all thought... damn those rocket scientists are stupid. They can't even adhere foam to metal. Look at the big picture, not one simple fu*k up.

Think they spent several million on their accountants.. Ummm, they made no profit yet he got a "bonus." Seems like these professionals are causing their demise..

You would know best after all you have read a couple articles about the situation.

You pick the best candidate.. That's what interviews are for. If he's dull, long winded and boring and has high marks he can fark himself. If he has people skills he's got my vote. If he's got high marks and great personality bonus. =)
.

O.k. so hire Jim Carry over Milton? What the hell are you saying... people skills are at the top of your list for a CEO position? Schools provide tests. Tests do exactly that... test knowledge in an area. Providing a record of schooling is providing a record of skill. But I guess your saying that a ten minute interview would be better than 4 years of testing to determine someones skill level.

Yet, silently you don't laugh at them when they do something wrong, "lol, I learnt that in my first year class?"

If you don't do that, you're one of very few people that doesn't belittle their fellow man.
.

No a mistake is simply that. Before they knew I was educated they'd simply change it with going, "oh look at the degree boy who can't even add." You get held in a different light.

And would I really care if he had a PhD before he can get a grant? Before he's taken seriously by those with an education? Just like the dropout in the east coast who created the alternative fuel for cars, but wasn't taken seriously for 10 years because he was a drop out.

And now he is selling these cars and making money off of it??? It's too bad he never applied his intelligence with the combined intelligence of the proffessers. He might have built rocket cars, rather than a piece of shit running on vegetable oil.

Universities/Education are a facade.. "oh you went to a University." Blah.. read the book/text/manual. You'll have the same knowledge as the next university student.

Application has to do with genetics and personal skills no university can give you that. You either got it or you don't and being in the right place at the right time.

That's why many of the boomers got an education after they were VPs, CEO's etc.

Once again, until the individual has proven himself in his work or his schooling you don't know his skill level. If someone goes to school and achieves a degree masters or a doctors... he's proven something. If someone simply reads the book, he has not been tested yet and has not proven anything. If someone has made it big in the real world he will be considered over someone who has made it big in the artificial world, I'm not arguing this. What I am arguing is that until he's done one or the other he has shown no skill at all.

[smartass]

Difficult in this case is a relative term. While your typical trades man probably can't write a good thesis, your average doctor can't figure out how to put up drywall despite my best teachings. Paid work is just that - its work. Or why do you think most kids with money like to go to school? When was the last time you were on a construction site? Or spent a day in a shop? Give me the class room anytime. Now plant this on top of your "easy" course load. Now all of the above of course are relative to one another definitely a BSc in Medicine is more difficult to get than a BA in say Jazz Appreciation - yet both are respected as degrees. By the same token getting your ticket as a welder or AME is a little more demanding than getting your ticket in say Aromatherapy.

So take ten people... teach 5 to hammer nails and 5 to study biology. Which would have the higher pass rate? Sure there are easy degrees thats why the course name is on the front of them.

I've been involved in all of the outlined education and you can't compare them.
Exactly. But here we are. You're comparing a degree and saying its better than any other type of experience or education.

What I meant is you can't compare the levels of intelligence or intellectual stimultation involoved

Have you also noticed how a lot of universities regularly drop their requirements when they have low enrollment? One year I needed a 85% HS average the next I needed a 75%. Besides, if you're planning on fixing cars for the rest of your life why bust your ass to get yourself prepared for university? Which is what the public school system is designed for - lets face it, everyone can't go to university.

Sure... They have to fill classes. Carleton is especially known for this but it also has the highest failure rate of first year students out of any U. If you're planning on fixing cars you don't need U. If you want to make go somewhere and challenge yourself... everyone has the opportunity, whether they can do it or not depends on intelligence, skill, determination... all of the things that an education proves.

Who says you can't make money? The few truly hard workers I know who've gone to university had a job the entire time they were there. Maybe if you had a ton of money to start with though you might be able to go with the keep your head in your books plan.

The higher up you get in education the more time is required for studying the less time you can work and the more commitment you need.

I've also spent the last four years learning without a decent income but that doesn't put me in the same boat as someone who might have a piece of paper in his hand. Highest skilled applicant is once again relative, because having a degree doesn't prove skill.

Do you go to the unlicenced Mechanic for you 1200 overhaul? Why would you then hire someone who doesn't have any certification in another field?

[festivus]

smartass - Quote "Providing a record of schooling is providing a record of skill. "

NO it is not.

Schooling, on the most part is theory, skill comes from practical application of said theory. Just because you have a degree or certificate in whatever does not mean you are "skilled" in that particular field. There's many folks out there with education that don't do particularly well in their fields. Education will help you get established in your career but it isn't the be all and end all of success.

[ronjeremy]

..

[Shiny Side Up]

So take ten people... teach 5 to hammer nails and 5 to study biology. Which would have the higher pass rate? Sure there are easy degrees thats why the course name is on the front of them.

But you don't hire the people who studied biology to pound nails. But here we are we're hiring people to fly airplanes based on the fact that they might have some education in some other field. It really makes no sense. If I hire a gang of shovellers I don't pay one of them more because he's went to university.

Sure... They have to fill classes. Carleton is especially known for this but it also has the highest failure rate of first year students out of any U. If you're planning on fixing cars you don't need U. If you want to make go somewhere and challenge yourself... everyone has the opportunity, whether they can do it or not depends on intelligence, skill, determination... all of the things that an education proves.

Anyone technically can make it to the NHL as well with some intelligence, skill, and determination. But that doesn't mean I'm going to hire Iginla to fly one of my planes over another qualified applicant. Once again having that piece of paper in your hand doesn't prove any of those. Does a University degree differentiate between the graduate who took the minimum required courses to get by each semester, and the one who worked hard taking the best possible to bust his/her way through? No. Nor does it differentiate between who was at the top of his class and whom might be at the bottom. -Something to think about next time you go to the doctor!

The higher up you get in education the more time is required for studying the less time you can work and the more commitment you need.

With the possible exception of those in medicine, most applicants working on their masters in something actually get to set their own schedule - while granted there's a fair amount of work to do being able to do it on your own time allows you to get a fair chunk else done as well. I know. My buddy who's working on his is always asking me to go fishing with him.

Do you go to the unlicenced Mechanic for you 1200 overhaul? Why would you then hire someone who doesn't have any certification in another field?

But if you have two mechanics the one with a degree isn't necessarily the better of the two. Do you go to the one who has spent the last four years in university studying biology or the one who has been doing overhauls for the last four years?

I rest my case.

What I can't do that?!

Case closed.

[cyyz]

Dag nabit..

Sorry smart ass I had nice reply.. But whatever.. It didn't post/load/save properly..

heading to bed, so I'll be brief.

Miller is a lawyer, yet he made his comments about our cops? Not the brightest move on his "educated" part.

Bush has his MBA, yet

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0 ... 58-7388302

"Page after page (after page) of quotations, suggests Miller, reveal that Bush is a man who, while not stupid, is prodigiously illiterate and woefully uneducated."

Uneducated, be that's the only thing we're sure of, he has an education he's got his papers proving he's educated..

Then I brought up the Lawsuit from the nurse who commented the Docs shouldn't have said SARS was done.

Then I mentioned the tainted blood scandal, educated people let that happen.

So yes, you would be able to do an operation on me just as well as the next guy, the only difference would be you wouldn't have a paper from that field and as such you wouldn't be able to charge me as much.

Heck you could even run the city or country just as "well" as anyone else..

So I concluded with the best way to solve this problem about greed, that's all it is, that's why everyone pursues higher education, money. Solution would involve abolishing capitalism. and,

Breeding children.. Yes it creates drones, but that's not the point, if we breed and condition our children we'll know what jobs need to be filled we won't have hate or crime anymore. We'll have a perfect utopian socialistic society. Everyone is equally human, just some are born/destined to shovel sh8t while others are born to run the world.

thoughts on the solution?

[Phantomwray]

cyyz wrote:

Then I brought up the Lawsuit from the nurse who commented the Docs shouldn't have said SARS was done.

Then I mentioned the tainted blood scandal, educated people let that happen.

What you fail to realize is that everybody is human and everybody makes mistakes, education or no education. I agree that there are people who have higher education who look down on those without. I'll bet though, that if you followed those type of people back to their childhood, you'll find that a lot of them always felt superior to those around them in some way or another. You can't characterize an entire group of people based on a few.

So I concluded with the best way to solve this problem about greed, that's all it is, that's why everyone pursues higher education, money. Solution would involve abolishing capitalism. and,

That is not why everyone pursues higher education. I certainly didn't get a degree to get more money. I went on to University because I enjoy learning. I wanted to open more doors in my future than would be available with only a high school diploma. I could really care less about making enormous sums of money. What I am looking for is satisfaction in my chosen vocation. I want to be able to say that I love what I do, that it is interesting. Getting a degree was the right thing to do for me. It is not necessarily right for the next person though.

I can also vouch for several of my friends at University. Their pursuit of higher education was not for the money. Granted, I knew of one person who was in it for the money and is now a Chiropractor. However, that seems to be the exception.

Heck you could even run the city or country just as "well" as anyone else..

As Ralph Klein demonstrates. A person doesn't need an education to be successful. Someone can be a success with or without higher learning. A degree is just one more tool that someone may use to help them achieve success. It doesn't guarantee that they'll succeed.

This us versus them mentality has to stop. It's meaningless.

[cyyz]

That is not why everyone pursues higher education. I certainly didn't get a degree to get more money.

I can also vouch for several of my friends at University. Their pursuit of higher education was not for the money. Granted, I knew of one person who was in it for the money and is now a Chiropractor. However, that seems to be the exception.

I appologise for that. My last post included the word "many" but in my haste the second time around I wrote the word "everyone." You're correct, several people pursue a higher education so they can get a profession they really care for and are passionate about. But remember when you were in elementary school and people asked the kids "what do you want to be when you grow up?" Many people would say "lawyer," and their answer to "why" was simple and short, "money."

Wouldn't it just be easier if we did have a socialistic world, where the doctors get a free education(no student loans) but make just as much money as the garbage man? Then we'd really have people doing the things they "like." Instead of things that bring them power, wealth and bring down others(because some aren't good at what they do).

As Ralph Klein demonstrates. A person doesn't need an education to be successful. Someone can be a success with or without higher learning. A degree is just one more tool that someone may use to help them achieve success. It doesn't guarantee that they'll succeed.

This us versus them mentality has to stop. It's meaningless.

I blame the situation on society.. Someone started this mess, and we should re-evaluate the situation.

Does a Teller really need a BA in music to be a good teller? Does a pilot need a B. Sc in Bio to really get a job in Air Canada?

It's like women when you go "mrs" and they say "no it's miss." Or when you go hey Mr. Bob, and he goes "no it's Dr. Bob" but he keeps the fact that it's a PhD in Theology to himself...

bad society..

[smartass]

CYYZ...

What the hell are you on??? what are you saying??

I'd be able to operate on you??? Are you really this F$#*ed??

Didn't you have kids in school that you dreaded getting partnered with for projects? You'd end up correcting all of their mistakes and do twice the work! We aren't all equals!!! I could never become a brain surgon!!!!!!!!

You then have a mind flop and start talking about equal opportunity and pay for everyone????

The reason there are proffesions such as Doctors and Lawyers is largely based upon the benefits of the proffession. Great pay and great time off. These people have dedicated their lives to get to the level of knowledge that they've reached and as such should be rewarded. Like the nurses that are one strike right now... why is everyone honking??? They went to school for 2 years and a lot of people are commenting that they should be paid close to the same wage as doctors because they do more work. Well then go back to school and get your doctors. And then there's this argument which I love... "We have families too". Well so do the people on welfare... do they deserve six figure salaries? If you take this approach everyone would want to be working at McDonalds. We all have control over our own destinies whether we become successful and wealthy is up to us. If your present position provides neither happiness or wealth move on.

And yes... those that have made it to the top of their game and are changing the world as we know it, deserve more respect than those happy to sit back and get by. The grease monkey that is changing our oil deserves less respect than the genious that built the engine. This respect is only on the level of intelligence and skill, not on a personal level. If the genious is an ass and the mechanic is a great guy on a personal level he'll recieve a higher level of respect. It's the same as admiring Wayne Gretzky. He had both the skill and the drive to become what he became. If he was satisfied to stay in the juniors, he wouldn't get the same respect.

As for hiring educated pilots... it simply shows another ability to learn. A lot of ground school in the airlines is just like a boring 4th year lecture. Determining whether or not an employee will get anything out of it can be better predicted by looking at grades achieved in upper education. Sure they might not be a better pilot then someone without an education but they can show the employer that they can hack a classroom style groundschool. Chances are those with degrees will average higher scores than those without. They've learned how to study and take in information as well as have shown an initiative to learn.

As for grades and classes dropped etc. A degree doesn't show that but transcripts do. Every job that I've applied for required me to show my transcripts. I then had to deliver explanations as to why I didn't do as well in some coarses as others. All of this is useful to the employer in determining whether you'll do well in that environment or not. You are able to present numbers to an employer just like a University uses SAT scores to accept applicants.

Sure education isn't a direct translation of skill but if you can grasp the concepts presented to you in the classroom chances are you'll grasp them in the real world. Those that can't understand the concepts generally won't do well.

There are always exceptions to rules and we could spend all month talking about these exceptions such as Bill Gates etc. but I'm talking in general. Sure someone that dropped out of highschool turned around and made a great invention. Should we then cancel highschool? As CYYZ pointed out, I should be able to do brain surgery because someone else managed to operate as a doctor without problems. So why not cancel med school? Once again... what sort of drugs did your doctor prescribe?

[Shiny Side Up]

CYYZ...

Didn't you have kids in school that you dreaded getting partnered with for projects? You'd end up correcting all of their mistakes and do twice the work! We aren't all equals!!! I could never become a brain surgon!!!!!!!!

Wait, wait, wait here a minute. Didn't you say before that anyone could do anything if they put their mind to it? I guess maybe not in this case. But you said anyone could get a degree... I guess maybe a degree holder doesn't necessarily confer skill. Hmmm. I guess we're back in agreement.

You then have a mind flop and start talking about equal opportunity and pay for everyone????

The reason there are proffesions such as Doctors and Lawyers is largely based upon the benefits of the proffession. Great pay and great time off. These people have dedicated their lives to get to the level of knowledge that they've reached and as such should be rewarded.

That's the only reason we have doctors and lawyers? I thought the purpose we have them was to help people. Hmmm maybe most of them are bigger assholes than I thought. But seriously, level of education isn't the only meathod of determining pay level. Responsibility, risk and skill level.

Responsibility: Lets put two pilots against each other. One is flying an aircraft that has 20 people on board the other has 130. Who gets the greater pay? Obviously the one who is responsible for the greater amount of people - not the one who is better educated.

Risk: The whole idea of hazard pay. A worker who faces the hazards of working in an H2S enclosed area with various highly flammable gasses in near proximity should get better pay than one who doesn't.

Skill: I got two trackhoe operators. You reward skill directly. In other words you pay the one more who digs more ditch in a day. His level of education makes no difference as long as his skill proves his capability for quality work.

Like the nurses that are one strike right now... why is everyone honking??? They went to school for 2 years and a lot of people are commenting that they should be paid close to the same wage as doctors because they do more work.

I want you to tell the nurse that next time you go for your medical. And they're right in a lot of cases - the reason? Responsibility. The nurses are getting more and more of the responsibility for patients - If you're on the hook for someone's well being you deserve a greater chunk of the money. In the pilot world lets put it in terms some of us can understand. Say you're the captain on a hundred passenger airplane. If you get moved up to a larger airplane - greater responsibility - greater pay.

Well then go back to school and get your doctors. And then there's this argument which I love... "We have families too". Well so do the people on welfare... do they deserve six figure salaries? If you take this approach everyone would want to be working at McDonalds.

Once again you're forgetting our principals of skill, risk and responsibility. Some one on welfare has none and someone at McDonalds only has a bit. If we follow what you say though it means we should give the welfare applicant that has a degree more money than one who hasn't.

As for hiring educated pilots... it simply shows another ability to learn. A lot of ground school in the airlines is just like a boring 4th year lecture. Determining whether or not an employee will get anything out of it can be better predicted by looking at grades achieved in upper education. Sure they might not be a better pilot then someone without an education but they can show the employer that they can hack a classroom style groundschool. Chances are those with degrees will average higher scores than those without. They've learned how to study and take in information as well as have shown an initiative to learn.

Now that's the first compelling arguement for having a degree I've heard so far in terms of culling one's hiring pool. It does not however give reason for some to demand higher pay for having one. Say you do hire two people, One with a degree, one without. Both do well in the groundschool you put them through for a PPC on your airplane. Do you now pay the guy with the paper in his hand more? No. They get paid by the level of skill they have shown and responsibility given them.

Sure education isn't a direct translation of skill but if you can grasp the concepts presented to you in the classroom chances are you'll grasp them in the real world. Those that can't understand the concepts generally won't do well.

Exactly. Its what we're saying here. Having a degree is only a potential indicator to how well a student or employee might do in a certain field. Understanding concepts and ability to do are two different things. World of aviation example: You might have a degree in thermodynamics in your hand, but if those hands can't put one of my airplanes on the runway without damaging it I'm not going to pay you more.

[Shiny Side Up]

BTW: For those of you who are long-winded like myself yet are finding you are unable to post your rants because the system kicks you out, simply highlight the text of your post before you submit and right click and copy. If it boots you out and makes you sign back in then you simply paste your valuable input back in when you sign back in again.

[smartass]

CYYZ...




That's the only reason we have doctors and lawyers? I thought the purpose we have them was to help people. Hmmm maybe most of them are bigger assholes than I thought. But seriously, level of education isn't the only meathod of determining pay level. Responsibility, risk and skill level.

Responsibility: Lets put two pilots against each other. One is flying an aircraft that has 20 people on board the other has 130. Who gets the greater pay? Obviously the one who is responsible for the greater amount of people - not the one who is better educated.

Risk: The whole idea of hazard pay. A worker who faces the hazards of working in an H2S enclosed area with various highly flammable gasses in near proximity should get better pay than one who doesn't.

Skill: I got two trackhoe operators. You reward skill directly. In other words you pay the one more who digs more ditch in a day. His level of education makes no difference as long as his skill proves his capability for quality work.

Like the nurses that are one strike right now... why is everyone honking??? They went to school for 2 years and a lot of people are commenting that they should be paid close to the same wage as doctors because they do more work.

I want you to tell the nurse that next time you go for your medical. And they're right in a lot of cases - the reason? Responsibility. The nurses are getting more and more of the responsibility for patients - If you're on the hook for someone's well being you deserve a greater chunk of the money. In the pilot world lets put it in terms some of us can understand. Say you're the captain on a hundred passenger airplane. If you get moved up to a larger airplane - greater responsibility - greater pay.

Well then go back to school and get your doctors. And then there's this argument which I love... "We have families too". Well so do the people on welfare... do they deserve six figure salaries? If you take this approach everyone would want to be working at McDonalds.

Once again you're forgetting our principals of skill, risk and responsibility. Some one on welfare has none and someone at McDonalds only has a bit. If we follow what you say though it means we should give the welfare applicant that has a degree more money than one who hasn't.

As for hiring educated pilots... it simply shows another ability to learn. A lot of ground school in the airlines is just like a boring 4th year lecture. Determining whether or not an employee will get anything out of it can be better predicted by looking at grades achieved in upper education. Sure they might not be a better pilot then someone without an education but they can show the employer that they can hack a classroom style groundschool. Chances are those with degrees will average higher scores than those without. They've learned how to study and take in information as well as have shown an initiative to learn.

Now that's the first compelling arguement for having a degree I've heard so far in terms of culling one's hiring pool. It does not however give reason for some to demand higher pay for having one. Say you do hire two people, One with a degree, one without. Both do well in the groundschool you put them through for a PPC on your airplane. Do you now pay the guy with the paper in his hand more? No. They get paid by the level of skill they have shown and responsibility given them.

Sure education isn't a direct translation of skill but if you can grasp the concepts presented to you in the classroom chances are you'll grasp them in the real world. Those that can't understand the concepts generally won't do well.

Exactly. Its what we're saying here. Having a degree is only a potential indicator to how well a student or employee might do in a certain field. Understanding concepts and ability to do are two different things. World of aviation example: You might have a degree in thermodynamics in your hand, but if those hands can't put one of my airplanes on the runway without damaging it I'm not going to pay you more.

SHiny, shiny, shiny...

You've expelled so much wind without giving any thought.

To start off with I never said anyone can just go out and get a degree. I said everyone has the opportunity to go out and get a degree. I was referring to the costs of education. Some degrees are extremely difficult and not everyone can get their mind around it. Don't twist my words around.

Secondly Doctors and Lawyers are mainly there because of the benefits. I never said only. Once again don't put words in my mouth. If they weren't, they wouldn't be fighting for higher wages right now and what lawyer do you know of that just wants to keep innocent people out of prison. Wake up and smell the coffee.

As for basing pay on risk skill and responsibility you are right. Unfortunately your whole argument is based upon me supposedly saying that people with degrees should be paid more. When did I say that? I simply said that hiring someone with a degree is a safer bet than someone without. If you hire both for the same job then of coarse they will get the same pay.

Lastly about the nurses. I just spent a long time in the sick house after being involved in an accident. What were the nurses responsible for?
Blood pressure,
Bandage replacing,
Keeping me from falling out of bed while I pissed in a cup,
Sheet changing,
Moral lifting.
All of these events don't involve any complex skill, don't provide any risk except the possibility of disease transfer, and don't involve any responsibility. If I were to sue anyone it would be my surgeon and they do get sued all the time. An Orthapedic Surgeon is the second most commonly sued occupation next to a Gynocologist. So breaking down his job involves:
12 years of intesive skill training,
Taking peoples lives in their hands every day,
and going one on one with all sorts of diseases.

I'm sorry I don't understand where the nurses responsibilities have increased. Although I am very thankfull for the services that they provide I can not understand a wage increase. If its all about the money, go to the states. We can't have a health care system as we know it unless we start cutting back.

Myself personally, I welcome the American system. All of the people going to the doctor for bumps and bruises would be paying for it themeselves. I don't understand how people think that our system is better. The system as a whole costs a lot more to run and do you think the government pays for it? We pay!!! All it is is a forced private health care plan. Just because its a national health care doesn't mean that it is magically funded by some hidden gov. income. We pay through taxes and premiums. You can't pick and choose what level of protection we want and if you go to the doctor only for serious problems, you still pay as much as someone who goes everyday for coffee. The more you make the more you pay. This is planning on being extended to a level where it increases even more with national and provincial premiums based soley on income.

Once again working back to the degree argument. I put it all on the line to get myself on firm ground and make a descent salary. The closer I get to succeeding the more money is being thrown into this public pool. We are turning into a communist state where people don't get awarded for getting educated, skilled, experienced. Why should I pay $30,000 in education without expecting any return from it? Am I the selfish one or is the person who doesn't bother achieving anything because he knows it will be provided by those who do? Hard work should pay off!!!!!

[scubasteve]

I think the reason this is such a passionate discussion is everyone is defending their choice. No one likes to think that they are less than someone else and no one is. Education is a choice. For every person there is different path. No 2 people are alike and what works for one person doesnt necessarily work for someone else. My resume and work history is all over the map...retail, construction, bouncer, bartender, ski bum/liftie, summer camp, payphone collector, corn detassler, pig food maker, cappucino bar, forest fire fighter, fast food...I may have been working "meaningless" jobs but that doesnt make me stupid. I've also spent 4 years at university getting a degree thru 2 different programs. You can compare college and university and trades but you can also compare programs...some are harder than others or at least require more of a committment. The last 3 years of university for me, I lived at home, volunteered coaching at my highschool, and worked 2 or 3 jobs while studying business management and flight training. The number of hours of class and courses allowed me to do the other activities. However in my first year I studied aerospace engineering - 10 more hours spent in class each week and a heck of a lot more homework and studying was required which was made difficult as I played on the volleyball team as well.

The reason I bring this up is to challenge the idea that you can work and pay for school at the same time. Even if I hadn't played volleyball that year I could have used that time to study. If I had worked I would have been lucky to make $8/hr and been limited to at the most 15 hours of work a week. that does not pay tuition or living expenses. Working 3 jobs and living at home, I still wasnt able to cover the costs of school. Am I bitter? maybe a little as I feel everyone should have the opportunity to chase their dreams and get a higher education if they choose. At the same time it was my choice. Not everyone can or should follow the same path.

My point in all that rambling is that each individual should be treated as such...on an individual basis. They're level of intelligence or they're ability to learn, to communicate, or they're work ethic etc are not printed on paper. I do believe that you can never know too much whether someone goes to university or just reads textbooks or whatever in their spare time. make the decision to go to school because its what you want to do and because you will get some enjoyment or sense of accomplishment out of it.

[cyyz]

I could never become a brain surgon!!!!!!!!

Yes you can.. Anyone can. That's the thing, you might really suck at it but you can find a school that will accept and pass you! Do you not see how that's wrong? You might as well have joe boo do the operation, because with everyone getting a degree left right and center you don't know who's "good" and who just has a "degree". Which means degrees are useless and shouldn't be used in the hiring process...

You then have a mind flop and start talking about equal opportunity and pay for everyone?

No, I said we should turn to socialism and only allow those who really want and are able to become brain surgeons to go to Brain Surgeon school for free at the tax payers coin, but not have them get paid 1+ million a year. That way it's actually cheaper for the tax payer, the brain surgeon will only join said profession if he's dedicated otherwise he can become a garbage man at the age of 15 and get paid the same amount.

The reason there are proffesions such as Doctors and Lawyers is largely based upon the benefits of the proffession. Great pay and great time off. These people have dedicated their lives to get to the level of knowledge that they've reached and as such should be rewarded. Like the nurses that are one strike right now... why is everyone honking??? They went to school for 2 years and a lot of people are commenting that they should be paid close to the same wage as doctors because they do more work. Well then go back to school and get your doctors. And then there's this argument which I love... "We have families too". Well so do the people on welfare... do they deserve six figure salaries? If you take this approach everyone would want to be working at McDonalds. We all have control over our own destinies whether we become successful and wealthy is up to us. If your present position provides neither happiness or wealth move on.

See Phantomwray, greed, ignorance and poor attitude is an accurate repersentation of your peers.

Lawyers, lol, that's the biggest scam in the world. I even have more respect for the Prostitution profession. You need a lawyer to sell your home and another to sign off on your newly purchased home. Good ol' days when all you needed was a handshake. Lawyers who live just so they can sue for any little thing.

You're right many(for Phantomwray) people become lawyers and doctors for one reason and that's greed. How much were the doctor's making in Vietnam, WWI, II? Or the pilots in those wars?

We would have better professionals that don't make mistakes like serving tainted blood to clients if they were actually "good." And since you brought it up, even a dumb arsed McDonald's employee wouldn't serve raw meat, if they're so "stupid" how come they can tell the difference between right and wrong?

And yes... those that have made it to the top of their game and are changing the world as we know it, deserve more respect than those happy to sit back and get by.

Saw that on TV either a show or an interview, but the person was a liberal(I hate liberals by the way) commented on that, paraphrased "It's funny how once the republicans make their millions they're always the first to start regulating the industry." It's true, conveniently Canada has it's 10 or so large corps that run the insurance industry but it's impossible for jimbo bob to create an insurance firm..

But, you're right we should respect the Bill Gates and Joseph Stalin type Drop Outs seeing as they actually accomplished something. Unlike the people who you despise who rant "we have families". Which also happen to be the people that rant "I went to University and can't find a job," yet McDonald's is always hiring, yet "working" is just below them and they think they should be served everything on a silver platter because they have a BA in music.

The grease monkey that is changing our oil deserves less respect than the genious that built the engine.

Like Henry Ford......

Sure they might not be a better pilot then someone without an education but they can show the employer that they can hack a classroom style groundschool. Chances are those with degrees will average higher scores than those without. They've learned how to study and take in information as well as have shown an initiative to learn.

Exactly, like our "doctors" that give the wrong and tainted blood to patients, who misdiagnos or don't even accept the clients own diagnosis?

Sure education isn't a direct translation of skill but if you can grasp the concepts presented to you in the classroom chances are you'll grasp them in the real world. Those that can't understand the concepts generally won't do well.

Yet, we have doctors making mistakes, and Lawyers making offending comments on Camera.. Seems like they didn't "grasp" anything at all..

Should we then cancel highschool? As CYYZ pointed out, I should be able to do brain surgery because someone else managed to operate as a doctor without problems. So why not cancel med school? Once again... what sort of drugs did your doctor prescribe?

I didn't say cancel high, elementary, post-secondary schools.. I said why force children to take courses they don't like. If you like math it's in your best interest to get more math and less gym. If you hate languages and want to be an artist why not let children take art over other classes?

That way we'd produce better artists, better doctors better pilots.

Sometimes Phantom it's also the parents who force and push children to become lawyers and doctors because if they became anything less they'd be a disgrace to their family(*points to suicide rate in Japan*).

[cyyz]

I think the reason this is such a passionate discussion is everyone is defending their choice. No one likes to think that they are less than someone else and no one is. Education is a choice.

make the decision to go to school because its what you want to do and because you will get some enjoyment or sense of accomplishment out of it.

Scubasteve, you're correct it's a choice for the individual and everyone is unique.

But because of our capitalist system we have people who dream of making $250k/yr as a lawyer, doctor or a pilot, but aren't really good at either of those professions. If we could curtail all this greed create a viable solution(socialism of sorts) we'd have excellent surgeons who would rarely make a mistake and atleast never make a mistake because of their greed.

60 Minutes did the show where dentists would tell their patients to get fillings, teeth pulled, root canals, gold teeth etc. Just so they could make money, everyone in my family has numerous filling yet my gf's family no one in her family has any and they all eat the same junk food we eat and brush twice a day as we do.

Law and Order(fiction) did a show where doctors were doing pregnancies at record numbers just so they could make another dollar in the end a patient dies. "Malpractice" exsists because these people are in the profession and aren't doing their job right.

I've been to the doctor where he spent a minute with me said "go home and you'll be fine in a day, next" I went for a second opinion. Why do we need to go for a second opinion these are supposed to be "trained" professionals. Degrees should equal identical credentials, equal talent and most importantly equal desire to do their job.

CYYZ...

What the hell are you on???

Are you really this F$#*ed??

Scuba those are words(text) from a person who swore he never belittled people even though he has a higher education. It's that attitude that forces everyone to just generalise one group, and the other group does it too.

Before in the past as stated it was a class system(supposedly). "I'm rich I deserve a VP job" and now it's the new thing to go around saying "I have a degree give me a VP job."

Wealth bought you a commission in the British Army in the past and now a Degree will almost get you that commission but we still had Lt's and Capt's getting fragged in Nam.

Knowledge is good, but all that's important is how you'll be able to use it. A doctor that's a doctor for the sake of having it "easy" as stated by our forum member shouldn't be a doctor because that may put my life in harms way if he's operating on me. Like wise a disgruntled nurse who thinks she deserves as much as a doctor.

The only solution to this problem is to abolish wealth.

Society needs all the people that contribute, who's to say the grease monkey isn't as important as the guy who built the engine? If you have an engine but no one to fix it, it's no good. Like wise having someone available to fix something that isn't invented isn't good as well.

We all need one another. As Scuba mentioned we're all individuals but we should all try to better society and not ourselves at the expense of others.

*end long winded rant

[greenwich]

'Smartass':
My man...PM me next time u are passing through CYYC! I'll buy the beer (seriously)! Great comments, great points of view! You sound like a great bloke!!

I think it's time to move on to other topics as we have all beaten this one to death!! 'CYYZ' seems to be seroiusly losing his mind, and a few others seem to be getting a little too personaly involved in this discussion!

I find it quite ironic that a serious underlying tone has emerged in this thread, and that is to attack and criticise 'higher education'! It's ironic in the sense in the threads first post 'JACKASS' was simply asking why so many people in aviation look down on pilots with post secondary education!

I guess this thread may not have proven WHY so many people in aviation look down on pilots with post secondary, but it clearly proves that so many people in aviation DO look down on pilots with post secondary education!!

Who knows!? Perhaps it's because having a post secondary education is having achieved something that most pilots have not. Perhaps it's because pilots with post secondary have something to fall back on if their aviation carreer doesn't work out. Perhaps it's because pilots with post secondary may (and probably will) get a slight 'leg-up' as their carreers advance. Or perhaps it is because pilots with a post secondary education are a minority in the world of aviation. Who knows?

I'm done with this topic!!

G

[cyyz]

but it clearly proves that so many people in aviation DO look down on pilots with post secondary education!

And it's also displayed the arrogance and inept aptitude by some with a higher education who frown on the common man.

This thread has answered and solved the mystery of

WHY so many people in aviation look down on pilots with post secondary

And it's because some of the individuals ruin it for each group they repersent and each group is forced to generalise each group. It takes 1 bad thing to lose 5 customers it takes 5 good things to gain 1 customer.

Or perhaps it is because pilots with a post secondary education are a minority in the world of aviation

Minority?? Bah, Ummm, as stated all the chaps in Air Canada have degrees of sorts. They're pilots part-time, and professionals full-time. Many pilots have a Seneca/Centenial/UofT/Algonquin diploma/degree..

Where did you get the fact the "educated" are a minority??

Or I guess they're educations don't count either??

So not only do you frown on those without a degree but also have shown you probably frown on everyone that doesn't have a PhD in BS.