Airline Bans Bibles to Avoid Offending Muslims

priest · Post by **priest** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:44 pm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=48269

Airline bans Bibles to avoid offending Muslims
Carrier to Saudi Arabia also precluding crucifixes, teddy bears
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

A British airline banned its staff from taking Bibles and wearing crucifixes or St. Christopher medals on flights to Saudi Arabia to avoid offending the country's Muslims.
British Midland International also has told female flight attendants they must walk two paces behind male colleagues and cover themselves from head to foot in a headscarf and robe known as an abaya, the Mirror newspaper of London reported.
Teddy bears or other cuddly toys also are not allowed.
Airline officials, who have sparked outrage, the paper says, explain the Islamic kingdom's strict laws – enforced by religious police – prohibit public practice of Christianity and figures of animals.
BMI spokesman Phil Shepherd said: "In providing air services people want, demand and use, we have an obligation to respect the customs of the destination country."
An airline employee who asked not to be named told the Mirror: "It's outrageous that we must respect their beliefs but they're not prepared to respect ours." The employee said his grandmother gave him a crucifix shortly before she died that he wears at all times. "It's got massive sentimental value and I don't see why I have to remove it," he said.
The airline's staff handbook says: "Prior to disembarking the aircraft all female crew will be required to put on their company issued abaya. It will be issued with the headscarf which must be worn."
The employees' union wants staff members to be able to opt out of the flights, but the airline says the only option is to transfer from overseas staff to domestic flights, which could mean a loss of about $30,000 a year in wages.
About 40 staff members have filed complaints since the route began in September.
Some of the male members who are homosexual have called in sick, because they are afraid of traveling to Saudi Arabia, where homosexual activity is punishable by flogging, jail or death.

This is going to far, in my opinion. I'm not sure if Saudi Arabia puts pressure on the airlines servicing them to "play by their rules," but if they are, that is just ridiculous! Airlines are doing a service to the country by operating there!

CID · Post by **CID** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:01 pm

If you want to do business IN a foreign country, you have to respect their customs and culture. Period.

If you don't want to, or if doing so conflicts with your own principals then you need to make a decision to find other markets.

By the way. The name of this thread is somewhat misleading in my opinion.

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:20 pm

You're right, CID, but the airline should be taking the employee's preferences into consideration as well, they ought to be able to opt out of the flights without penalty. Asking them not to wear jewellery is one thing, but putting women into a submissive position is something else entirely.

And as for the source for this article... check out their homepage: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.asp It's like the Fox News of the Internet...

priest · Post by **priest** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:42 pm

CID wrote:If you want to do business IN a foreign country, you have to respect their customs and culture. Period.

True, but you dont see any Jewish or Christian countries doing this.

The name of the thread was copied from the title of the article. I guess it is a little misleading, though. Hope I didn't disappoint you too much

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:33 pm

Respecting a foreign country is one thing, but this is ridiculous.

I can understand the need to respect a countries customs and practices, but at some point you have respect your employees rights and even there personal safety.

I mean here in Canada at least you can not discriminate against an employee based on sex, race, creed, religion, sexual preference or disability. Would forcing your employees into situations that could cause them harm for simply being them selves not violate there basic human rights?

I think it would be very wise for the airline to offer guidance to getting along in Saudi Arabia though at there may be some crew that feel unsafe due to who they are. That being the case they should be allowed to opt out of the runs. If they get to the point where they cannot get enough crew for the runs perhaps that should tell them something about the way they are operating it!

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:40 pm

CID wrote:If you want to do business IN a foreign country, you have to respect their customs and culture. Period.

If you don't want to, or if doing so conflicts with your own principals then you need to make a decision to find other markets.

By the way. The name of this thread is somewhat misleading in my opinion.

You are right on CID
I don't know how long will muslims have to take this shit..
If you don't like it ..don't go there ..

Cheers
Adam

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:41 pm

Teddy bears or other cuddly toys also are not allowed

I agree today's #1 on the THREAT DOWN BEARS!!!!

JOE BOY · Post by **JOE BOY** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:06 am

Pilot_adam

WTF is that? How about in our own country we allow plenty of this shit to go on...oh sorry i hurt your feelings oh this oh that...@#$k you!! How about the fact that we celebrate x-mas with the so tree of said name sudenly a few find it offensive and oh oh! sorry we'll make that the holiday tree...give me a @#$kin' break pull your head out of your ass!

You are right on CID
I don't know how long will muslims have to take this shit..
If you don't like it ..don't go there ..

Cheers
Adam

And by the way if you don't like stay the @#$! out!

my 2 cents

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:23 am

True, but you dont see any Jewish or Christian countries doing this.

bingo. why do some have to change their "customs" while others shove theirs right into your face. The problem is it is an international airline...

the only reason i would purposely walk 2 paces behind anyone is to kick their ass.
humans rights should be advancing, not receeding into a cave...no, i won't go there... but give ME back my Gawdamn Canadian CHRISTMAS tree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... unless it offends you of course.

LH · Post by LH » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:43 am

Whooooooaaaaaa, hang-on there. There's some kind of pure bullshit being reported here or else the given airline hasn't been doing trips to Saudi Arabia for long. That rule spoken to here has been in place forever in Saudi Arabia. I attended an American Embassy social evening in 1975 when I worked over there and there were Canadian, American and other folks at that affair....including some BOAC and American Airline F/A's. They socialized and drank with male Saudis during the evening and males from other countries. I noted during the evening that there was not ONE Saudi female in that room for the whole night and knew the reason why. The evening ended and everyone went their way. The next morning, the Police were escorting female F/A's for both airlines out of their hotel rooms and they were driven to the airport. They were advised and their airlines advised that they were now "persona non grata" in Saudi Arabia and would no longer be allowed back in. The reason? They were females in the same room as males and were drinking alcohol in that same room with males. They might have over-looked the "associating" part because the Embassey was considered "Foreign Territory", BUT they were not about to over-look the alcohol part and doing it with males yet.

In our part of the world religion doesn't "hold sway" over the government the way it does in the Middle east and other spots worldwide. THAT'S why the Saudis and their ilk don't have the same things imposed them by us as they impose upon us when we're in their countries. Religion in those parts permeates everything from the government on-down for every waking-moment of every day. It's not "in your face" all the time, BUT it's there and you learn that fact real quick. Women and homosexuals have Rights in our world that they can't even dream about in the Arab world, so don't even bother comparing.

Don't go looking for bacon with your eggs on an EL AL flight either. It's their customs, their traditions, their religions and if some business or person doesn't like it........then don't go there period........as has already been rightly stated. Watch what you do and say when you get off a flight to Singapore also and that's a long, long way from the Middle East. Cross their religious laws and you'll think the Saudis are "wimps" with theirs.

There's something not being reported with that news article and anyone who has visited or worked that area for the last 50 years will tell you the same thing. This is really, VERY old news, but obviously many think that it is somethig NEW. It may be damn well unfair by our standards, but it sure as Hell ain't NEW.

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:30 am

All of this respect for other people's rights is something that we've come up with in the past 20 or 30 years. What would the response have been to a Sikh wearing a turban into a Legion bar in the 1960's? The few people that knew first hand would be the only ones not looking to eject the man.

The bottom line is that no matter where you go, you have to play be the host's rules. We just have to realize that we've made ourselves so politically correct that our rules now say "If you don't really like our rules, feel free to import any section of your rules that you see fit."

We've got nobody to blame but ourselves.

JOE BOY · Post by **JOE BOY** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:25 am

So true w squared!

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:14 am

What would the response have been to a Sikh wearing a turban into a Legion bar in the 1960's?

Where have you been? That happened in the 90's at the Red Deer Legion. The tragic thing was that the Sikh gentleman was invited.

In the beginning of 1994, an unfortunate controversy had started in the Canadian press regarding the right of a Sikh veteran to wear a turban in the legion hall. The Royal Canadian Legion in Calgary had stopped a Sikh veteran from entering the hall with turban.

It was a sad day for Canada.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:52 am

hey, i get the whole religion thing. I have been to Israel, to Jordan etc... i do respect customs when i am in the area. I think i and othes are really frustrated here as our home traditions ( no matter what your religion) are being trodden on. The whole idea of multiculture rocks ( says the daughter of immigrants) but, i wished we as North Americans, OK, as Candians could be as assertive as the middle East in maintaining our culture -such as it is- and applying it to foreigners visiting here. If you even go to Yellowknife, public signs are in 2 languages... and one of them ain't French. which is cool, but, we have sacrificed one of our cultures right there...i can barely find an English channel on TV in certain areas. I have heard school announcements in 3 languages, so the students could understand...

I was supposed to be a Saudi Citizen as a young girl, heading over with Dad with the Airlines. I would have been allowed to do, well, nothing once off the compound. that is where it gets frustrating. We are OK with respecting their culture, but we are weak when it comes to standing up for our traditions and advancements for basic human rights. We make a point of trying to keep religion and politics seperate, and keeping everyone else happy and unoffended but as a gender that could get rocks thrown at her, or a police escort for having a drink with my friends, this scares the living crap outta me that we are OK with this. I have 2 neices and don't want the respect of someone else's culture infringing on their rights. I love diversity, but am frightened we are slowly loosing it.. from our side over...i am afraid that the "if you don't like it, don't go there" attitude is too passive. Before you know it, there may be nowhere to go.

Oh, and when i was in Israel, i ate bacon. My hosts just called it pink chicken... sneaky monkeys..

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:48 am

i am afraid that the "if you don't like it, don't go there" attitude is too passive. Before you know it, there may be nowhere to go.

That attitude is very "American" in my opinion. I may be accused of generalizing here, but my opinion is based on personal experience. When Americans travel, they expect citizens in foreign lands to accommodate them. They have a hard time understanding why the world doesn't speak English.

I don't want to adopt the "ugly American abroad" attitude. It's really not what Canada, tolerance and true multi-culturalism is all about.

http://www.transitionsabroad.com/public ... neff.shtml

If you even go to Yellowknife, public signs are in 2 languages... and one of them ain't French. which is cool, but, we have sacrificed one of our cultures right there...i can barely find an English channel on TV in certain areas. I have heard school announcements in 3 languages, so the students could understand...

You travel to the NWT and consider the lack of English programming a loss of Canadian "culture"? Sorry, I don't agree. Can you imagine what the Inuit feel when they are bombarded with English? First Nations culture has been eroded by ignorance over the decades. I fully support preserving it.

but, i wished we as North Americans, OK, as Candians could be as assertive as the middle East in maintaining our culture -such as it is- and applying it to foreigners visiting here.

Sounds like pure retaliation to me. And what exactly is "Canadian Culture"? I'll tell you what it isn't. Intolerance to other people's religion or race or customs. Do we really want to risk lowering ourselves to the level of others by retaliating in kind and in total contravention of what Canada stands for? Or do we want to continue to be an example of how tolerance and multiculturalism works?

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:13 pm

it's kinda crappy doing this in writting... a tone of voice is deffinetely needed here... anyway. Yes, i agree: Intolerance is unacceptable and as you brought up, so are loud tourists abroad. I have been asked if i spoke "american" and "why was i speaking French, what was i proving by doin' that?" he asked...this was in the Arctic on a vacation he paid big coin for..

I LOOOOOOVE travelling, cultures etc and would never purposely offend anyone by say, wearing HotPants in the Vatican, BUT i will not reduce myself into a lower life form. That should not be culture. The crews should be allowed NOT to do this flight. I would be booking off sick if i had to do that BS ( i wouldn't get on as a pilot anyway, but i digress). I would then be getting in hock with my company by calling in sick...

To a degree, the host country attracting the business does need to comprimise as well, just like we have been doing. Tolerance on the host country's part? sure, why not.

As far as respecting odd cultural ideas, well, here's one. Back in the day, Europeeans took the brightest young boys from their choirs and castrated them so their voice remained pure. Extreme measures to maintain, what was at the time, a contemporary and perfectly acceptable pop culture. Cultures evolve and traditions change, to protect those that may be repressed or discriminated against, or mutilated such as these young boys. Honor killings are culturally acceptable by some, but it doesn't make them right.

I have had debates over this stuff with my Jewish freinds, my East Indian friends (various backgrounds there) and a friend of mine caught between her traditional values as a good Chinese girl and her new Canadian identity...One particular culture should not be "pussy footed" around just because they may offend easier than others and to an extent, make others fearful...just a thought.

Special K · Post by **Special K** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:01 pm

We in the west have become politically correct(Tolerant) of many things.
Muslim's live in the stone ages when it comes to tolerance. It's very unlikely they will modify their world to accomidate the infidels. In fact, they might even say they will change to accomidate the non-muslims, but the Koran says that it's ok to lie to non-muslims(infidels).
Almost all other religions have changed for the better with time. Not the muslims.
Women/Gays/Non-muslims should all be afraid of these guys. Europe has somewhere between 15-33% of their population following Islam, with their birth rate being triple that of the rest of the population.
Pretty scary in about 15-20 years for them.

Back to the topic though. Gays/ Women should be able to choose whether or not they have to fly to these countries. Maybe this issue should be part of the interview process for Airlines going to these places.

CYA
K

Special K · Post by **Special K** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:03 pm

Double post

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:11 pm

THIS IS A JOB FOR...

BUDDY JESUS!

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:33 pm

Almost all other religions have changed for the better with time. Not the muslims.

That's an interesting viewpoint you have there Special KKK.

Here are few things to ponder:

1) Tolerance and "politically correct" are not interchangable terms.

2) The Protestants and Christians in Northern Ireland can give any brutal thugs a run for their money.

3) The pope seems to think that birth control is immoral even in countries where children are being born into families that can't provide for them.

4) Tolerance is not a trait that is exactly broadly accepted in Chritianity. Just look south of the border. Pat Robertson come to mind.

5) Ever read the bible? Try it before you criticize. Read the part where two girls get their father drunk so they can have sex with him.

6) Women Gays and non-muslims should be afraid of these guys? And christians are more tolerant of gays and non-christians?

If anything is "scary" its the attitude that is being exposed with that post of yours.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:49 pm

CID wrote: 3) The pope seems to think that birth control is immoral even in countries where children are being born into families that can't provide for them.

Welcome to Canada, we supply them with a bigger welfare check for every imbred that they pop out....

4) Tolerance is not a trait that is exactly broadly accepted in Chritianity. Just look south of the border. Pat Robertson come to mind.

5) Ever read the bible? Try it before you criticize. Read the part where two girls get their father drunk so they can have sex with him.

6) Women Gays and non-muslims should be afraid of these guys? And christians are more tolerant of gays and non-christians?

If anything is "scary" its the attitude that is being exposed with that post of yours.

Blah blah blah.. Gays gays gays.. You come talk to me Mr. Tolerance when I'm allowed to marry my Goat and buy her life insurance... Until then you can kiss my hill-billy arse...

priest · Post by **priest** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:13 pm

Respecting other people's culture and values is important; however, assimilation is equally important. Both my parents are immigrants- they both retain some of their cultural values which were important to them; however, they also understood that it was important to "give up" some of their other values, as difficult as it may have been, in order to be able to live in Canada. I remember one story which really boiled my blood- when a muslim woman refused to remove her veil for a driver's license photo. This was in Florida!!! I also remember when I attended a Catholic high school, some parents from muslim students complained to the school because they didn't think it was fair for their children to be "forced" into taking the religion classes.

Special K · Post by **Special K** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:15 pm

Imagine that?
CID resorts to name calling!(KKK)
You've never done that in other posts have you?
If I was part of the KKK I'd be calling for them to string up the gays, dumb ass(beat that name poopy pants!).

I'll go slow for you CID, so you understand.

1.Could it not be said that we(the majority) are being tolerant towards the needs of the minorities when we are politically correct?
Of course not......

2. I bet the protestants and catholics of ireland aren't murdering the other religons all over the world like the muslims are.(Religion is Bad.....mmmmKay?)

3.I take it you support abortion(Baby killer!.....that was a joke). The pope's stance on birth control is a disgrace.

4.Tolerance is a big part of the western world, that is not all christian, even if it is based on christianity. Have you noticed Pat Robertson(the nutball he is) advocating that you go out and kill all jews/muslims/hindus/whatevers?
Uh......yah......I heard that too!.........

5.Did you notice that christians(which I am not) don't happen to take their 'Bible' literally any more(I bet you think that wrestling is real too, don't you!).

6.Our western governments are loosely based on christain values.
Are we allowed to stone to death homosexuals? Will we get more virgins in heaven if we kill more non-christians?
uhh.....no and no

I hope that wasn't too scary for you CID.

It's too bad you are more concerned with the arguments that you get in then you are the solutions. You'd probably make a good politician though(HA-HA)

.

CYA
K

priest · Post by **priest** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:36 pm

CID wrote: 3) The pope seems to think that birth control is immoral even in countries where children are being born into families that can't provide for them.

The Vatican argues that it is simply best for these people to remain abstinent. Is it realistic of them to assume they will? Probably not; however, using condoms won't provide a long-term solution to these issues. Personally, I wish the Vatican would change their stance on birth control, but I can understand their reluctance.

CID wrote:4) Tolerance is not a trait that is exactly broadly accepted in Chritianity. Just look south of the border. Pat Robertson come to mind.

Using Pat Robertson as a representative of Christianity is like using Enron as a template for running a successful business. He definetly needs to "think" before he opens his mouth, that is for sure.

Also, when people say Christians need to be more "tolerant," they often are referring to their stance on homo-sexuality, abortion, etc. From the Christian's standpoint, they view these things as sins, and many believe that they should not be expected to tolerate sin. For instance, if the government of Canada decides to legalize prostitution, and I see some prostitutes roaming public streets where potentially my children are playing, do you think that I would sit idle and "tolerate" this? Absolutely not! I simply believe that some values need to be upheld in society, as "intolerant" as they may be. Sure, we may be taking away certain rights from people, but I also believe that there are some "rights" that we should not have. Public prostitution is one of them.

CID wrote:5) Ever read the bible? Try it before you criticize. Read the part where two girls get their father drunk so they can have sex with him.

God also condemned their behavior. A lot of "great" people in the Bible did very awful things. For instance, one of Jesus' own descendants, King David (heiled as being the greatest king ever of Israel and a poster-boy for having "faith") committed adultery and murder. This does not mean, however, that God accepted this behavior.

CID wrote:6) Women Gays and non-muslims should be afraid of these guys? And christians are more tolerant of gays and non-christians?

As vocal as some Christians may be on this issue, they don't seem to be calling other Christians to murder them for their "sins." Again, I would agree that there are some people who "call themselves" Christian, such as Reverend Phelps, but who do not act like it. They are quick to judge and condemn, but very slow to speak out against themselves. The fundamentalists from the muslim sects, however, are calling their people to committ suicide attacks and to kill non-muslims. These are the people we should fear! I know Christianity's history is not perfect either (the Crusades, Salem Witch Trials, etc).

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:12 pm

Special K wrote:We in the west have become politically correct(Tolerant) of many things.
Muslim's live in the stone ages when it comes to tolerance. It's very unlikely they will modify their world to accomidate the infidels. In fact, they might even say they will change to accomidate the non-muslims, but the Koran says that it's ok to lie to non-muslims(infidels).

I wonder where some of you guys get their information....I guess you watch alot of CNN don't ya???

but the Koran says that it's ok to lie to non-muslims(infidels)????!!

Where did you get this from for heavens sake ???

I lived in the muslim world(Syria,Lebanon,Jordan,Egypt,Dubai,Kuwait,Israel) for years (about 10years) ,,Why should woman,non-Muslims be afraid of Islam or Muslims,,That is unfair...I was born for a catholic mother and she has never been treated bad or wrong by anybody,She does not have to cover her hair,she wore cross and she went to church ..
If you mean the woman situation in Saudia arabia then you mean tradition...not religion,Their traditions are cretisized by everybody in the middle east.
Please don't be blinded by the lies on your Tv ..Saudis' don't represent Islam but they represent themselves...
I hope I did not offened anybody .

cheers everybody
Adam

Airline Bans Bibles to Avoid Offending Muslims

Airline Bans Bibles to Avoid Offending Muslims

Isn't this an arguement of Tolerance vs. Intolerance?

Isn't this an arguement of Tolerance vs. Intolerance?

Re: Isn't this an arguement of Tolerance vs. Intolerance?