http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ory/Front/
Bloody Unions eh Lester...
Air Canada Countdown
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Air Canada Countdown
The previous thread was getting tooo long. Here's an update:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ory/Front/
Bloody Unions eh Lester...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ory/Front/
Bloody Unions eh Lester...
Good to see all the unions trying to save everyone's job...By Sunday, agreements had already been reached with six of the nine bargaining units
As for the taxation comments.. rofl.. Tell the airlines to Buy fuel from the states then if it's so cheap...
Over-priced landing fees, rents and nav-services.. Sure..
oh, good, yet sad read. Thanks Family Guy.
I don't know why the unions bother to agree to anything they don't want. Have you seen the latest poll numbers out of Quebec?
Financially speaking, Scare Canada is as safe as in your mother's arms. When have the Liberals shown any hesitiation in dumping taxpayers' money on any boondoggle that will buy votes?
Financially speaking, Scare Canada is as safe as in your mother's arms. When have the Liberals shown any hesitiation in dumping taxpayers' money on any boondoggle that will buy votes?
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Hun IN the SUN
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Air Canada
AC will survive and come back stronger than ever, You`ll probly see Jazz have more of a stance too. I hope they put WJ in there place. Which are headed to hit a brick wall. I dunno how long there employees will work for 8 bucks or whatever it is. they are a joke...
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Hun IN the SUN
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Well all I can say is that AC has been through more shit than WJ will ever go through. Did you forget about all the jobs that AC saved or all that Debt that AC took on. Also how about being forced to fly into unprofitable routes. WJ flys to wherever they see a profit or by stealing information from AC to see where they are weak and adjust there schedule. I think they`ve become way too cocky for a airline that hasnt even been around for 10 years. Just wait till WJ hits a patch of rough water and there isnt a profit to go around. When WJ has gone through some turmoil or aminosity then ill give em some respect but until then stick too the lame jokes and good luck out east....
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other-vic-guy
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... air_canada
"The CAW, which represents customer service staff at the airline, has said it won't ask any of its 4,700 members at the insolvent airline to agree to what amounts to a $10,000 annual wage cut for each of them.
"We're still talking, but nothing's cooking yet," Fane said.
Business professor Doug Reid of Queen's University predicted CAW president Buzz Hargrove will cut a deal in the end after getting some sort of symbolic concession from the company.
"Buzz will give an award-winning performance on how hard he had to fight for his members, but at the end of the day it was either that or put the company underwater," Reid said. "
My money is on the fact that he will let the ship sink.. Better that his 4700 employees not lose $10,000/yr and just their jobs.. Tis best to die and live in poverty then live in shame knowing you have to keep working.
Looks like our taxes are going up one way or another.....
Tax hike to salvage these buggers..
Tax hike to pay for these gimps EU.
Tax Hike to pay for their welfare..
Woohooo..
"The CAW, which represents customer service staff at the airline, has said it won't ask any of its 4,700 members at the insolvent airline to agree to what amounts to a $10,000 annual wage cut for each of them.
"We're still talking, but nothing's cooking yet," Fane said.
Business professor Doug Reid of Queen's University predicted CAW president Buzz Hargrove will cut a deal in the end after getting some sort of symbolic concession from the company.
"Buzz will give an award-winning performance on how hard he had to fight for his members, but at the end of the day it was either that or put the company underwater," Reid said. "
My money is on the fact that he will let the ship sink.. Better that his 4700 employees not lose $10,000/yr and just their jobs.. Tis best to die and live in poverty then live in shame knowing you have to keep working.
Looks like our taxes are going up one way or another.....
Tax hike to salvage these buggers..
Tax hike to pay for these gimps EU.
Tax Hike to pay for their welfare..
Woohooo..
I hope that Air Canada has learn a few things from all this.......
Because there won't be a second time. This is the last chance at making things right...
WJ employee are being paid below industry standard but they got the company shares to compensate, right? What will happen to all that money when the market / stocks goes down? Bye-bye....
When was the last time you saw a B737 captain picking-up garbage in the cabin after shooting an approach to minima (Cat II) in snow and freezing rain? BS
.
.
Because there won't be a second time. This is the last chance at making things right...
WJ employee are being paid below industry standard but they got the company shares to compensate, right? What will happen to all that money when the market / stocks goes down? Bye-bye....
When was the last time you saw a B737 captain picking-up garbage in the cabin after shooting an approach to minima (Cat II) in snow and freezing rain? BS
.
.
Union posturing at root of Air Canada dispute
Paul Kedrosky
Financial Post
May 18, 2004
The latest go-around in the protracted Air Canada negotiations has been because of a misunderstanding: Air Canada's unions -- and the CAW in particular -- think that Canadians care whether the airline is shut down.
The CAW used that incorrect opinion to justify being the last union holdout in the ongoing Air Canada cost-cutting talks. The CAW seemingly thought that in an election year, Canadian voters would be outraged at 30,000 newly unemployed Air Canada workers out on strike.
That is why last Saturday night's Deutsche Bank deadline went by so quietly. After all, the bank plainly said it required $200-million in annual cost savings for it to backstop $850-million in Air Canada fundraising. Were the folks at the alphabet soup of Air Canada unions, from CAW to CUPE, listening?
You bet they were. And while some of the unions promptly settled, others, like the CAW, let the deadline go whizzing by. It wasn't, however, that Deutsche Bank's threat wasn't real, or that there was a queue of other finance folks waiting in the wings (no pun intended) to bail out Air Canada.
The bank's threat was entirely credible. It, like Victor Li not long ago, needed to see that Air Canada was committed to getting its expenses in line with its sales -- and salaries are the biggest line item after fuel. Putting money into Air Canada without an agreement that those costs would come down would be foolish.
If Deutsche Bank's threat is real, then what is going on? Either all seven Air Canada unions should have agreed to a deal by the Saturday deadline, or Deutsche Bank should have walked away. Neither happened.
Why? Well, it is partly because Air Canada's myriad unions were convinced that their exercise in brinksmanship was backstopped by voters and, therefore, by the Canadian federal government. The union leaders thought that so long as they maintained at least the appearance of serious negotiations with the airline, "fair play" would dictate that an inevitable impasse be solved by Paul Martin's government.
They had at least two reasons for thinking that to be the case. First, there is history. Over and over again, Air Canada has been the beneficiary of favourable treatment by the Canadian federal government, and having that happen again this time would, from a union perspective, only be appropriate.
At the same time, that is partly why Deutsche Bank didn't abide by its self-imposed deadline. It almost certainly is wondering at repeated proclamations from Transport Minister Tony Valeri -- he and his staff keep saying they are watching the current discussions closely. From Deutsche Bank's perspective, why would it keep saying that if there wasn't something they might do at some point about the intermittent impasse?
Union negotiations are premised on brinksmanship and uncalled bluffs. Any credible threat must, therefore, be followed by immediate action; if you threaten a union and then don't follow through, no future threat will have any credence. After all, it would be easy to call the unions' implicit bluff: They have no real plan to keep Air Canada running.
The Canadian Union of Public Employees, for example, had as part of its supposed plan that all carriers flying into or out of Canada abide by official bilingualism. The effect, of course, would be to make Canada a far less attractive place for Air Canada competitors, and therefore make Canadian skies more profitable for high-cost Air Canada. The ensuing higher fares would come from Canadians' wallets, but Air Canada's unions don't really care about that part.
No, the CAW, like all unions, has only political plans. The union conceded recently that it is following its usual playbook of being the first union or last union to settle. If it is first it gets to say that it is a trend-setter and leads the way; if it is last, as it is this time, it gets to hold the hammer, thus demonstrating that it is a power in Canadian labour markets.
In other words, a positive outcome for CAW's Air Canada union-members is only secondary to making sure that the CAW executive, from Buzz Hargrove on down, gets to look good. Because if Deutsche Bank had walked away, the CAW would then blame the bank. And if, of course, the Paul Martin government walked away from the whole absurd affair then the union got to blame the feds directly.
Far from doing the right thing for its membership or for Air Canada, the entire affair is another example of the CAW doing the right political thing for itself. Its uneconomic motto is this: It's not whether you win or lose; it's where you lay the blame.
Paul Kedrosky
Financial Post
May 18, 2004
The latest go-around in the protracted Air Canada negotiations has been because of a misunderstanding: Air Canada's unions -- and the CAW in particular -- think that Canadians care whether the airline is shut down.
The CAW used that incorrect opinion to justify being the last union holdout in the ongoing Air Canada cost-cutting talks. The CAW seemingly thought that in an election year, Canadian voters would be outraged at 30,000 newly unemployed Air Canada workers out on strike.
That is why last Saturday night's Deutsche Bank deadline went by so quietly. After all, the bank plainly said it required $200-million in annual cost savings for it to backstop $850-million in Air Canada fundraising. Were the folks at the alphabet soup of Air Canada unions, from CAW to CUPE, listening?
You bet they were. And while some of the unions promptly settled, others, like the CAW, let the deadline go whizzing by. It wasn't, however, that Deutsche Bank's threat wasn't real, or that there was a queue of other finance folks waiting in the wings (no pun intended) to bail out Air Canada.
The bank's threat was entirely credible. It, like Victor Li not long ago, needed to see that Air Canada was committed to getting its expenses in line with its sales -- and salaries are the biggest line item after fuel. Putting money into Air Canada without an agreement that those costs would come down would be foolish.
If Deutsche Bank's threat is real, then what is going on? Either all seven Air Canada unions should have agreed to a deal by the Saturday deadline, or Deutsche Bank should have walked away. Neither happened.
Why? Well, it is partly because Air Canada's myriad unions were convinced that their exercise in brinksmanship was backstopped by voters and, therefore, by the Canadian federal government. The union leaders thought that so long as they maintained at least the appearance of serious negotiations with the airline, "fair play" would dictate that an inevitable impasse be solved by Paul Martin's government.
They had at least two reasons for thinking that to be the case. First, there is history. Over and over again, Air Canada has been the beneficiary of favourable treatment by the Canadian federal government, and having that happen again this time would, from a union perspective, only be appropriate.
At the same time, that is partly why Deutsche Bank didn't abide by its self-imposed deadline. It almost certainly is wondering at repeated proclamations from Transport Minister Tony Valeri -- he and his staff keep saying they are watching the current discussions closely. From Deutsche Bank's perspective, why would it keep saying that if there wasn't something they might do at some point about the intermittent impasse?
Union negotiations are premised on brinksmanship and uncalled bluffs. Any credible threat must, therefore, be followed by immediate action; if you threaten a union and then don't follow through, no future threat will have any credence. After all, it would be easy to call the unions' implicit bluff: They have no real plan to keep Air Canada running.
The Canadian Union of Public Employees, for example, had as part of its supposed plan that all carriers flying into or out of Canada abide by official bilingualism. The effect, of course, would be to make Canada a far less attractive place for Air Canada competitors, and therefore make Canadian skies more profitable for high-cost Air Canada. The ensuing higher fares would come from Canadians' wallets, but Air Canada's unions don't really care about that part.
No, the CAW, like all unions, has only political plans. The union conceded recently that it is following its usual playbook of being the first union or last union to settle. If it is first it gets to say that it is a trend-setter and leads the way; if it is last, as it is this time, it gets to hold the hammer, thus demonstrating that it is a power in Canadian labour markets.
In other words, a positive outcome for CAW's Air Canada union-members is only secondary to making sure that the CAW executive, from Buzz Hargrove on down, gets to look good. Because if Deutsche Bank had walked away, the CAW would then blame the bank. And if, of course, the Paul Martin government walked away from the whole absurd affair then the union got to blame the feds directly.
Far from doing the right thing for its membership or for Air Canada, the entire affair is another example of the CAW doing the right political thing for itself. Its uneconomic motto is this: It's not whether you win or lose; it's where you lay the blame.
Look at the choices currently being given to AC's CAW members. The comany's demanding that 45K per year people take a 10K pay cut! If I was in that boat I'd tell my employer to go to hell to! I'd call their hand. If the airline goes bust, so what! Who the hell can live on 35k a year. Either way I'd be looking for new work, so I might as well roll the dice.
As for WJ's using stock options instead of a decent salary. Great stuff until profits and share prices decrease. Right now WJ is using edgy accounting practices to defer major maintenence expenses. It works well when you're buying and flying relatively new jets, but watch the profits take a hit when those airframes go in for their first overhauls. Some analysts are predicting WJ's profitability will fall by 2/3's once they start taking their full maintenance costs into account.
If WJ's share prices fall dramatically, employees holding shares they bought through their options program may be in for an unpleasant surprise when they sell. They will owe income tax on the basis of the share value when they exercised their options, although the current share price may be significantly less. In a worst case, the share value when you sell may not even cover your tax bill. As well, I also wonder how much a $10 per hour person has left to invest outside of WJ's share purchase plan? Probably not much, which violates a most basic tennant of investing; diversification.
Don't get me wrong, WJ's share purchase/profit sharing plan is a good thing. It just becomes less good and more risky when the company forces all your eggs into one basket because of a low salary stucture. The talk of WJ employees just sounds to much like the tech stock zealots of a few years ago. Like lemmings, they all ran off the cliff together because they seemingly believed each other's BS about Nortel being worth more than all the major banks and next ten largest Canadian companies combined. I hope WJ employees don't burn themselves in the same way by blindly buying into Clive's propaganda and cheerleading. Remember, Clive and his partners started WJ to make themselves rich, and everyone else is just along for the ride. Of course, only Clive knows for sure where he and WJ are going, and the rest of us only know what he tells us.
As for WJ's using stock options instead of a decent salary. Great stuff until profits and share prices decrease. Right now WJ is using edgy accounting practices to defer major maintenence expenses. It works well when you're buying and flying relatively new jets, but watch the profits take a hit when those airframes go in for their first overhauls. Some analysts are predicting WJ's profitability will fall by 2/3's once they start taking their full maintenance costs into account.
If WJ's share prices fall dramatically, employees holding shares they bought through their options program may be in for an unpleasant surprise when they sell. They will owe income tax on the basis of the share value when they exercised their options, although the current share price may be significantly less. In a worst case, the share value when you sell may not even cover your tax bill. As well, I also wonder how much a $10 per hour person has left to invest outside of WJ's share purchase plan? Probably not much, which violates a most basic tennant of investing; diversification.
Don't get me wrong, WJ's share purchase/profit sharing plan is a good thing. It just becomes less good and more risky when the company forces all your eggs into one basket because of a low salary stucture. The talk of WJ employees just sounds to much like the tech stock zealots of a few years ago. Like lemmings, they all ran off the cliff together because they seemingly believed each other's BS about Nortel being worth more than all the major banks and next ten largest Canadian companies combined. I hope WJ employees don't burn themselves in the same way by blindly buying into Clive's propaganda and cheerleading. Remember, Clive and his partners started WJ to make themselves rich, and everyone else is just along for the ride. Of course, only Clive knows for sure where he and WJ are going, and the rest of us only know what he tells us.
The $10k wasn't commented on how much the top players would lose and how much the bottom earners would lose... So to generalise and just say they all make $45k and they'd all lose $10k is wrong.
Secondly, they didn't say they'd work the same and take a pay cut, maybe they just wouldn't get the extra seniority hours of overtime pay for 'working' extra..??
In which case more time for their family.. =P
Secondly.. Yes, WJ employees are 'forced' to buy the stocks.. As they're all 'forced' to work for WJ.
Even so the ones who got in early will be cashing out with the greatest gains, those who sign up in the next few years will be the ones who will be taking the biggest hits..
Secondly, they didn't say they'd work the same and take a pay cut, maybe they just wouldn't get the extra seniority hours of overtime pay for 'working' extra..??
In which case more time for their family.. =P
Secondly.. Yes, WJ employees are 'forced' to buy the stocks.. As they're all 'forced' to work for WJ.
Even so the ones who got in early will be cashing out with the greatest gains, those who sign up in the next few years will be the ones who will be taking the biggest hits..
Good points Wilbur.
Lester, the employees the CAW represents, ticket agents etc are the ones who make up the botton of ACA's pay scale. I totally agree with Wilbur, its a pretty untenable position they are in right now.
Consider this, how many $10,000/year hits per employee would Miltons salary and bonuses pay for???? Who would hurt more, the executives at ACA by taking even a 50% cut on hunderds of thousands each, or a ticket agent making $45000 or less and losing upwards of 10 grand? Isn't $36 000 the poverty line in Canada right now?
Exactly how much pain should those folks share in the name of "saving the airline" anyway? Bloody Union is stopping them from working for free!! What a bunch of unionized assholes eh!! If they'd just agree to work for free for a while old Milty could keep his summer house in the Hamptons!! Plu ezze...
WJA is an interesting company, but very young and by comparison very small. Comparing WJA and ACA is like comparing one of the Big 3 automakers to DeLorean. Time will tell how it all plays out.
Lester, the employees the CAW represents, ticket agents etc are the ones who make up the botton of ACA's pay scale. I totally agree with Wilbur, its a pretty untenable position they are in right now.
Consider this, how many $10,000/year hits per employee would Miltons salary and bonuses pay for???? Who would hurt more, the executives at ACA by taking even a 50% cut on hunderds of thousands each, or a ticket agent making $45000 or less and losing upwards of 10 grand? Isn't $36 000 the poverty line in Canada right now?
Exactly how much pain should those folks share in the name of "saving the airline" anyway? Bloody Union is stopping them from working for free!! What a bunch of unionized assholes eh!! If they'd just agree to work for free for a while old Milty could keep his summer house in the Hamptons!! Plu ezze...
WJA is an interesting company, but very young and by comparison very small. Comparing WJA and ACA is like comparing one of the Big 3 automakers to DeLorean. Time will tell how it all plays out.
Hun: et al...
I was having trouble deciding on wether to answer your post.
Then I thought of all the people at WJ (where I proudly work).
I am not aware of your back ground so I will not bother to engage in flaming you. I have met more great people at West Jet in one year than in my entire career.
To call us a joke is an incredibly strong statement. To wit the only proof of your unsubstantiated statement is the fact that the captains pick up trash after a CAT II to minimums. (fully coupled to the autopilot).
It is indeed that pitching in the makes these people special. As for your comments. "we are a joke" and that we steal info ( before the court case). I believe that there is a name for what you are doing it is called LIBEL.
Best of luck in your career this is a small business
I was having trouble deciding on wether to answer your post.
Then I thought of all the people at WJ (where I proudly work).
I am not aware of your back ground so I will not bother to engage in flaming you. I have met more great people at West Jet in one year than in my entire career.
To call us a joke is an incredibly strong statement. To wit the only proof of your unsubstantiated statement is the fact that the captains pick up trash after a CAT II to minimums. (fully coupled to the autopilot).
It is indeed that pitching in the makes these people special. As for your comments. "we are a joke" and that we steal info ( before the court case). I believe that there is a name for what you are doing it is called LIBEL.
Best of luck in your career this is a small business
"Hey pile it, you wanna hold my bottle?"
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Bcn-In-Bnd
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Back to the topic at hand
(it always amazes me how these threads turn into a who likes WJ, JG who doesnt like wj,jg kinda thing)
Reuters
UPDATE - Air Canada on the brink as union rejects cutbacks
Tuesday May 18, 10:01 pm ET
By Franco Pingue and Charles Grandmont
(Recasts with no meeting planned)
TORONTO/MONTREAL, May 18 (Reuters) - Air Canada (Toronto:AC.TO - News) failed for a second time on Tuesday to meet a deadline to obtain wage concessions from a last holdout union, putting at risk an C$850 million ($612 million) rescue package that Deutsche Bank AG (XETRA:DBKGN.DE - News) has offered the insolvent airline.
The Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents Air Canada's 5,900 customer service employees, rejected a final cutback proposal from company negotiators late Tuesday.
Union officials said they hoped to break the impasse by resuming bargaining later in the evening in Toronto, but Air Canada refused to commit itself.
"We have received the CAW response and we are reviewing it," Air Canada spokeswoman Isabelle Arthur said.
"At this time, there is no meeting planned with the union," she said.
The impasse comes as Air Canada court protection from its creditors is scheduled to expire on Friday.
The Montreal-based carrier was expected to ask a bankruptcy judge for an extension before the end of the week, but the deadlock over cutbacks is threatening to push the struggling national carrier closer to outright liquidation.
CAW head Buzz Hargrove said Air Canada's last-ditch proposal called for about C$50 million in cutbacks, but the union was unwilling to give more than C$18 million.
"There has to be a change in the company position," said Hargrove, the head of Canada's largest private-sector union.
The CAW said Air Canada's demands mean a C$10,000 pay cut for workers earning on average between C$35,000 and C$49,000.
The world's 11th-largest airline obtained court protection from creditors on April 1, 2003, and is trying to emerge from bankruptcy protection as a refinanced and profitable carrier.
Air Canada unions agreed to C$1.1 billion in cutbacks last year, but the airline, pressured by record-high fuel costs, said last month it needed further concessions because it was C$200 million short of its target.
Six of Air Canada's seven unions have agreed to added concessions. The unions represent almost 90 percent of a work force of 33,000.
Deutsche Bank had agreed to guarantee the sale of C$850 million worth of securities to refinance the airline on the condition it reaches a deal with its unions by Saturday.
A source close to Deutsche Bank suggested on Monday that the bank would not walk away from its agreement as long as talks were progressing.
A $1.5 billion loan package from General Electric Aviation Services (NYSE:GE - News) is also conditional on an agreement between Air Canada and Deutsche Bank. The loans would help the airline acquire 90 regional jets from Bombardier Inc. (Toronto:BBDb.TO - News) and Embraer SA (Sao Paolo:EMBR3.SA - News).
Air Canada persuaded Deutsche Bank to step in after Hong Kong billionaire Victor Li, ruffled by the unions' rejection of major pension changes, walked away in April from an agreement to buy a third of the airline for C$650 million.
Hargrove said several other investors had shown an interest in Air Canada, so he was not worried about the airline being thrown into liquidation.
"Air Canada will fly. It will fly next week, the week after, next month, six months, next year, the year after," he said.
"The only question is going to be who is going to have the money in it and who is going to be making a pile of money, and what is the price they are going to force on the members of our union and the others that work at the airline," he said.
(it always amazes me how these threads turn into a who likes WJ, JG who doesnt like wj,jg kinda thing)
Reuters
UPDATE - Air Canada on the brink as union rejects cutbacks
Tuesday May 18, 10:01 pm ET
By Franco Pingue and Charles Grandmont
(Recasts with no meeting planned)
TORONTO/MONTREAL, May 18 (Reuters) - Air Canada (Toronto:AC.TO - News) failed for a second time on Tuesday to meet a deadline to obtain wage concessions from a last holdout union, putting at risk an C$850 million ($612 million) rescue package that Deutsche Bank AG (XETRA:DBKGN.DE - News) has offered the insolvent airline.
The Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents Air Canada's 5,900 customer service employees, rejected a final cutback proposal from company negotiators late Tuesday.
Union officials said they hoped to break the impasse by resuming bargaining later in the evening in Toronto, but Air Canada refused to commit itself.
"We have received the CAW response and we are reviewing it," Air Canada spokeswoman Isabelle Arthur said.
"At this time, there is no meeting planned with the union," she said.
The impasse comes as Air Canada court protection from its creditors is scheduled to expire on Friday.
The Montreal-based carrier was expected to ask a bankruptcy judge for an extension before the end of the week, but the deadlock over cutbacks is threatening to push the struggling national carrier closer to outright liquidation.
CAW head Buzz Hargrove said Air Canada's last-ditch proposal called for about C$50 million in cutbacks, but the union was unwilling to give more than C$18 million.
"There has to be a change in the company position," said Hargrove, the head of Canada's largest private-sector union.
The CAW said Air Canada's demands mean a C$10,000 pay cut for workers earning on average between C$35,000 and C$49,000.
The world's 11th-largest airline obtained court protection from creditors on April 1, 2003, and is trying to emerge from bankruptcy protection as a refinanced and profitable carrier.
Air Canada unions agreed to C$1.1 billion in cutbacks last year, but the airline, pressured by record-high fuel costs, said last month it needed further concessions because it was C$200 million short of its target.
Six of Air Canada's seven unions have agreed to added concessions. The unions represent almost 90 percent of a work force of 33,000.
Deutsche Bank had agreed to guarantee the sale of C$850 million worth of securities to refinance the airline on the condition it reaches a deal with its unions by Saturday.
A source close to Deutsche Bank suggested on Monday that the bank would not walk away from its agreement as long as talks were progressing.
A $1.5 billion loan package from General Electric Aviation Services (NYSE:GE - News) is also conditional on an agreement between Air Canada and Deutsche Bank. The loans would help the airline acquire 90 regional jets from Bombardier Inc. (Toronto:BBDb.TO - News) and Embraer SA (Sao Paolo:EMBR3.SA - News).
Air Canada persuaded Deutsche Bank to step in after Hong Kong billionaire Victor Li, ruffled by the unions' rejection of major pension changes, walked away in April from an agreement to buy a third of the airline for C$650 million.
Hargrove said several other investors had shown an interest in Air Canada, so he was not worried about the airline being thrown into liquidation.
"Air Canada will fly. It will fly next week, the week after, next month, six months, next year, the year after," he said.
"The only question is going to be who is going to have the money in it and who is going to be making a pile of money, and what is the price they are going to force on the members of our union and the others that work at the airline," he said.
Yes, good points Wilbur.
Everyone blames the CAW, and I don't think that they are sparkly clean, but I also think that they shouldn't budge.
My spouse works for AC in the CAW, and is up against a wall. Everyone working there hates it (almost all YYC full time employees put their names in the hat for a possible company buy out last week). After all the cuts that have been made over the last few years, all that is really left for most employees is the $45-50,000/year. Take 20% of that away, and no one will stay, why should they? There are plenty of jobs that already pay in the $30-35,000 range and are alot more enjoyable. Why agree to somthing that is going to happen to you anyway if the company goes tits up? You have nothing to lose whatsoever.
Pilots and cookie pushers however, have a ton to lose. If you want to work in Canada, an AC Captain can probably take a $100,000 hit, and still be paid more than any other company. I know it sucks, but those with the most to lose have to make the biggest concessions.
Everyone blames the CAW, and I don't think that they are sparkly clean, but I also think that they shouldn't budge.
My spouse works for AC in the CAW, and is up against a wall. Everyone working there hates it (almost all YYC full time employees put their names in the hat for a possible company buy out last week). After all the cuts that have been made over the last few years, all that is really left for most employees is the $45-50,000/year. Take 20% of that away, and no one will stay, why should they? There are plenty of jobs that already pay in the $30-35,000 range and are alot more enjoyable. Why agree to somthing that is going to happen to you anyway if the company goes tits up? You have nothing to lose whatsoever.
Pilots and cookie pushers however, have a ton to lose. If you want to work in Canada, an AC Captain can probably take a $100,000 hit, and still be paid more than any other company. I know it sucks, but those with the most to lose have to make the biggest concessions.
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Always Moving
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:13 am
- Location: Always Moving
Too much fat
I think, like most "old time airline" the people earn too much, specialy the old timers.
The way I look at it is, the company colapse, other company fill the gap, and some of the oldtimers will retired, since they are not about to WORK for what the industry pays.
But I will hate to be an Oldtimer ready for retairment and puff all gone.
Or you can think, deam I had it so good for so long that It is true I am getting pay WAYYYYYYYY TOOOO MUCHHH.
There will be always two sides...........
The way I look at it is, the company colapse, other company fill the gap, and some of the oldtimers will retired, since they are not about to WORK for what the industry pays.
But I will hate to be an Oldtimer ready for retairment and puff all gone.
Or you can think, deam I had it so good for so long that It is true I am getting pay WAYYYYYYYY TOOOO MUCHHH.
There will be always two sides...........
so what does an airline pilot deserve for salary? honestly. take everything into account: experience, specialization, the constant scrutiny of medical fitness and job performance, and most of all accountability and responsibility. then throw in all the years it took to get to the "big time," the eternal instability of the industry, frequent relocation (for a lot of us) and odd schedules with a lot of nights in a strange bed. yeah, there are many great aspects as well, but we shouldn't be penalized for doing what we love. we are just bus drivers, folks, i agree... but there is a little more to it than that. personally, i believe we deserve better than minimum wage.
it saddens me how true it is that we're our own worst enemies in this biz.
it saddens me how true it is that we're our own worst enemies in this biz.
