One of my students recently drove to Calgary to write her private pilot written exam. As per transport canada requirements (you will notice that I refuse to capitalize transport canada), she brought her E6B, compass, rule, and calculator. Before her test they examined her supplies and deemed that her standard issue ICAO chart rule was inadequate for the exam because of a temp. conversion on the back of it. (Im sure you all know the ruler). So they told her that she was not allowed to use it in the exam. They also told her that they would get her something else to use in its place…..something that they deemed fit for their exams. She began to write……then got to the Nav section and low and behold no one had come to give her a ruler yet. So she went out into the office (still on the clock) and waited until somebody was available to find her a ruler…..she spent 15 min waiting for them to bring her a ruler. The ruler that they gave her was your standard straight edge ruler…..IN INCHES AND CETIMETERS!!!!
Am I wrong for being completely pissed off here?? She aced her Airlaw at 100% her Aeronautics and Meteorology didn’t fall far behind at mid 80’s. In my mind a well prepared student. But her Navigation section fell to 50%. Now one could make the assumption that this may have been due to fact that she couldn’t do a proper flight plan due to improper equipment.
MY BEEF….
transport tells you what you are allowed to bring into a class room, if they don’t agree with it they should provide PROPER alternate equipment to use. We pay all sorts of stupid fees for them surly they can provide a 3 dollar ruler…..and let you keep it!!! Also my student drove 3 hours to make her appointment also taking the day off work and getting a hotel so she could be ready for her exam in the morning. Im assuming here but all totaled plus the exam fee I would guess at least 250 – 300 dollars for her trip.
I believe an apology needs to be issued by our good friends at transport and they should wave the fee for her partial that, in my opinion, could have been avoided. But Id like to know what you all think about it.
another stellar move by transport
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
another stellar move by transport
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyrony of petty things.
The tc office in Winnipeg has an excellent procedure for this ICAO chart ruler that Aviation Publisher made non compliant by putting conversions on the back. They simply put a piece of duct tape on the offending conversion chart.
Also remeber That as of April 1 2006 you will no longer be able to write the RPP PPL or any other Recreational Level exam at TC you must now go to the Authorized Exam Invigilators.
Also remeber That as of April 1 2006 you will no longer be able to write the RPP PPL or any other Recreational Level exam at TC you must now go to the Authorized Exam Invigilators.
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mellow_pilot
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Cat Driver
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Well fu.k me I was born far to soon, just think if I had been born later I could have been an " Invigilator. "
That sounds so much more important than pilot.
Cat
That sounds so much more important than pilot.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Graham Strang
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Nordo, to save your next student some grief, have them go to a school that has an Invigilator. There is one at the international, Morgan Air several at Springbank, I think but am not sure that Calgary Flying Club and Mount Royal are the ones there.
They would give you an "Offical" Chart Rule.
Of course I have never used a chart rule for nav planing in my life, I was tought how to do without it, that would do as well.
What I do not get is there is a temperature conversion scale on my E6B.
They would give you an "Offical" Chart Rule.
Of course I have never used a chart rule for nav planing in my life, I was tought how to do without it, that would do as well.
What I do not get is there is a temperature conversion scale on my E6B.
No offence, NORDO, but I'm with scm here. The ruler, complete with correct scale is already on a COMPLIANT E6B. Show your student where it is. Alternatively, teach how to use the lines of lattitude for measuring. Our groundschool kit offers a ruler at a premium, but we teach with the edge of the E6B.scm wrote:What happened to the ruler on the E6B?
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Centennial Flight Centre in Edmonton at City Centre also has an Invigilator...
From the Webster dictionary
From the Webster dictionary
I agree Cat. The word does seem more than a bit hokey. But for students it's alot more flexible because they can write any time the school's open which is a lot longer than the TC offices.intransitive senses : to keep watch; especially British : to supervise students at an examination
transitive senses : SUPERVISE, MONITOR
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wha happen
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use the E6B or maybe even use the god damn chart given right on the map, yes its there. Open any VNC to the south side and look on the page that is mostly all white. all white except for the mileage chart. Show them where it is.
Transport Canada does not owe you an appology, i believe that you owe your student one. There were two other perfectly fine "rulers" to use.
Transport Canada does not owe you an appology, i believe that you owe your student one. There were two other perfectly fine "rulers" to use.
Its the way she goes boys, its the way she goes.
Lets sacrifice him to the crops.
Lets sacrifice him to the crops.
Nordo, thats B.S your student should be able to write again for free becasue clearly she knew the subjects. I wrote my commercial exam about a month ago and I asked for a ruler before I wrote. The people working for transport looked for like 15 minutes and finally I got one. Then she said to her co-worker we only have 2 rulers left. Those morons don't realize that you need the ruler for the nav it's kind of a big part of the nav section so they should have enough for each computer station, And yes I realize that their is one on your E6B but transport should still supply things you need that you personally can't bring in. I'm not talking about calculators but come on transport grow a friggin brain. Giving you a ruler with centimeters and inches in completely useless.
What I don't understand is that every E6B that I've ever seen also has a temp. conversion chart on it.
...and why would that be an issue anyway? Another instance of TC making up exams based on information that people should not have to memorize because it is all readily available.
I never understood why I had to memorize the requirements to be a CP. It's not like I'd wake up one morning as a CP and have to know if I was qualified. There are far to many of these "filler" questions on their exams for my taste.
...and why would that be an issue anyway? Another instance of TC making up exams based on information that people should not have to memorize because it is all readily available.
I never understood why I had to memorize the requirements to be a CP. It's not like I'd wake up one morning as a CP and have to know if I was qualified. There are far to many of these "filler" questions on their exams for my taste.
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wha happen
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You can do the nav portion with a piece of paper and a pencil. THE CHART IS ON THE MAP. C'mon guys, lets not make this any harder than it has to be.Giving you a ruler with centimeters and inches in completely useless.
Its the way she goes boys, its the way she goes.
Lets sacrifice him to the crops.
Lets sacrifice him to the crops.
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ScudRunner
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So how many questions do you actually use the ruler on in the Navigation part of the exam?
Ok and your student couldnt measuse correctly useing the simple method of oh lets just say looking at teh scale on the side of the map? like 2cm = 10NM or whatever it is.
But this Old School Ruler the Evil Examiner provided was so out of wack that your star pupil blew the nav section?
So did she run out of time to complete the nav section. Ya its unprofesional of TC to then not promtly give her an alternate but I doubt this was a factor in her Failure.
Go whine to somebody else and tell your student to hit the books.
So 50% of themBut her Navigation section fell to 50%
Ok and your student couldnt measuse correctly useing the simple method of oh lets just say looking at teh scale on the side of the map? like 2cm = 10NM or whatever it is.
But this Old School Ruler the Evil Examiner provided was so out of wack that your star pupil blew the nav section?
So did she run out of time to complete the nav section. Ya its unprofesional of TC to then not promtly give her an alternate but I doubt this was a factor in her Failure.
Go whine to somebody else and tell your student to hit the books.
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Justwannafly
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I was told, on purchase of the ICAO ruler to slam duct-tape all over the back of it. That way you won't get dinged by a TC nazi, and you won't make the mistake of using statute miles instead of nautical miles. That's what I did, and have had no problems with written tests.
How to fly a plane? I'm still working on that.
-istp
How to fly a plane? I'm still working on that.
-istp
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Zapp Brannigan
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Its kinda funny but I've walked off with one of the chart rulers from Transport at YYC after my commercial exam 
.
I can see how they don't have any left (I brought mine back though, any chance to go to that office). They just put electrical tape on the back of it so you can't use the conversions.
But it is retarded because the E6B's I've seen always have conversions on them as well. I think an aggresive or resourceful person could have stopped this from happening before the section on the exam was reached
. I can see how they don't have any left (I brought mine back though, any chance to go to that office). They just put electrical tape on the back of it so you can't use the conversions.
But it is retarded because the E6B's I've seen always have conversions on them as well. I think an aggresive or resourceful person could have stopped this from happening before the section on the exam was reached
Im not an idot....I know there is many ways to figure out mileage when an avaition ruler in nautical miles and the proper scale is not within reach, and now my student dose too....this is not my f...in' point. I remember how nervous I was when I sat down for my private exam, I may have even knew the coralation between nautical miles and latitude, but I dont think you should be required to have to ad-lib and get creative for your private exam especialy when you were promised an AVAITION RULER.
Yes the side of an E6B has a ruler and a scale (a whole 50 NM) and some times they include a scale on the map your useing for your exam (not always), but the exam is multiple choice, and if you are off two or three miles because you were trying to use pieces of scales and add them up your still going to get THEIR answers wrong.
We are a couple of days away from offering the exams here at our school and she will be completeing her nav partial with a ruler that has nautical miles rather than centimeters.
Yes the side of an E6B has a ruler and a scale (a whole 50 NM) and some times they include a scale on the map your useing for your exam (not always), but the exam is multiple choice, and if you are off two or three miles because you were trying to use pieces of scales and add them up your still going to get THEIR answers wrong.
We are a couple of days away from offering the exams here at our school and she will be completeing her nav partial with a ruler that has nautical miles rather than centimeters.
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyrony of petty things.
Sorry Nordo - I can understand the frustrations here ... but I think your initial blasting of transport was a bit over the top.
It was your students decision to take a day off work, and to stay overnight. And it was your students decision to enter the exam room and start writing it, despite not having a replacement ruler in-hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they make no secret of the fact that its your own responsibility to bring the appropriate equipment.
Now, on the flip side: If they said they would proivde her with a ruler, then YES they should have done so (in a timely manner). And YES - not allowing the ruler with the conversion tables on it is probably over kill.
Is writing an exam stressful? Sure it is. But if your student is so easily stressed out that she needed to go a day early and stay overnight - well, I'd hate to see how she reacts in an emergency. As many have stated, an ICAO ruler is not the only way to do Nav work.
I've been a navigator with CASARA ... And while doing map work in flight, I have accidentally dropped a ruler having it land where it couldn't be (easily/safely) retrieved while still in the air. Is this a reason to say "turn around, and lets head for home"? No. "Stuff" happens - and people need to be able to deal with it. She should have either been better prepared (to do nav without the fancy $3 ICAO ruler) ... or should have waited to have a replacement in-hand before starting the exam.
> Should TC have better customer service (based on the amount we all pay in fees)? Damn right they should!
> Do they owe you and your student an apology for the ruler incident? No, I don't think so.
But hey, thats just my opinion. Sorry I can't be more sympathetic to your students hurt feelings.
p.s. I don't recall seeing anyone calling you an "idiot" in this thread. What I did see was you posting a synopsis of a situation, and asking for peoples feedback (which you obviously thought was going to be sympathetic to your cause) ... I guess some of it wasn't
It was your students decision to take a day off work, and to stay overnight. And it was your students decision to enter the exam room and start writing it, despite not having a replacement ruler in-hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they make no secret of the fact that its your own responsibility to bring the appropriate equipment.
Now, on the flip side: If they said they would proivde her with a ruler, then YES they should have done so (in a timely manner). And YES - not allowing the ruler with the conversion tables on it is probably over kill.
Is writing an exam stressful? Sure it is. But if your student is so easily stressed out that she needed to go a day early and stay overnight - well, I'd hate to see how she reacts in an emergency. As many have stated, an ICAO ruler is not the only way to do Nav work.
I've been a navigator with CASARA ... And while doing map work in flight, I have accidentally dropped a ruler having it land where it couldn't be (easily/safely) retrieved while still in the air. Is this a reason to say "turn around, and lets head for home"? No. "Stuff" happens - and people need to be able to deal with it. She should have either been better prepared (to do nav without the fancy $3 ICAO ruler) ... or should have waited to have a replacement in-hand before starting the exam.
> Should TC have better customer service (based on the amount we all pay in fees)? Damn right they should!
> Do they owe you and your student an apology for the ruler incident? No, I don't think so.
But hey, thats just my opinion. Sorry I can't be more sympathetic to your students hurt feelings.
p.s. I don't recall seeing anyone calling you an "idiot" in this thread. What I did see was you posting a synopsis of a situation, and asking for peoples feedback (which you obviously thought was going to be sympathetic to your cause) ... I guess some of it wasn't
I think that the point that is being over-looked in the responses is that TC had no good reason to take this student's ruler away.
A PPL student does not have to know how to use the scale on the map and does not have to know about the ruler on the side of the E6B.
They probably should know, but they don't have to. They have to know how to measure distance on an aeronautical map - by whatever method they want. This is a written exam (meant to represent pre-flight planning), not a flight test, and the possibility of dropping your ruler beyond retrievability when on the ground seems rather remote.
Myself, and all the students I have ever sent for a written exam, have all used the standard ICAO navigation ruler - and I have never heard of this problem before.
Check out TC's own publication on "The Art of Writing an Examination":
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/General/Exams/Art.htm
No mention of any rulers being prohibited - the only thing they list specific requirements for are the electronic flight calculators:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Gener ... puters.htm
I think that NORDO should definitely call someone on this. Of course they will say that there is nothing they can do, but they should still be taken to task for being unecessarily beureaucratic.
...and, again, the temperature conversion is on the E6B anyway!
A PPL student does not have to know how to use the scale on the map and does not have to know about the ruler on the side of the E6B.
They probably should know, but they don't have to. They have to know how to measure distance on an aeronautical map - by whatever method they want. This is a written exam (meant to represent pre-flight planning), not a flight test, and the possibility of dropping your ruler beyond retrievability when on the ground seems rather remote.
Myself, and all the students I have ever sent for a written exam, have all used the standard ICAO navigation ruler - and I have never heard of this problem before.
Check out TC's own publication on "The Art of Writing an Examination":
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/General/Exams/Art.htm
No mention of any rulers being prohibited - the only thing they list specific requirements for are the electronic flight calculators:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Gener ... puters.htm
I think that NORDO should definitely call someone on this. Of course they will say that there is nothing they can do, but they should still be taken to task for being unecessarily beureaucratic.
...and, again, the temperature conversion is on the E6B anyway!
How many of you out there have an E6B that shows how to do cross-wind calculations?
Should those be taken away as well?
BTW - I would be interested if TC Guy could provide some insight into why this person's ruler was taken away.
I would like to see anything in writing mentioning types of rulers allowed.
Should those be taken away as well?
BTW - I would be interested if TC Guy could provide some insight into why this person's ruler was taken away.
I would like to see anything in writing mentioning types of rulers allowed.
neilblythin,
your right, a ruler is not the end of the world, and life will go on without one, but the way in which it was handeled pissed me off. But you yourself pointed out 'appropriate equipment,' so where dose it say that an ICAO rule is inapropreate?? I have had many students go through with the same ruler.
Also Calgary is a three hour drive from here and transport is not open evening or weekends so getting time off work for anyone with a 9-5 job is not optional. Yes she choose the hotel and she made a bit of a vaction out of it and took her grandaughter to a hotel with a waterslide, but that dosent change how poorly I feel the situation got handeled.
I never said anyone called me an idot. It was a simple statment. And I never lost sleep over anothers opinion, I can take it.
As for transport...another tastless move in my opinion.
your right, a ruler is not the end of the world, and life will go on without one, but the way in which it was handeled pissed me off. But you yourself pointed out 'appropriate equipment,' so where dose it say that an ICAO rule is inapropreate?? I have had many students go through with the same ruler.
Also Calgary is a three hour drive from here and transport is not open evening or weekends so getting time off work for anyone with a 9-5 job is not optional. Yes she choose the hotel and she made a bit of a vaction out of it and took her grandaughter to a hotel with a waterslide, but that dosent change how poorly I feel the situation got handeled.
I never said anyone called me an idot. It was a simple statment. And I never lost sleep over anothers opinion, I can take it.
As for transport...another tastless move in my opinion.
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyrony of petty things.
RULER
Ya on the ruler thing.. I wrote my PPl in Winnipeg, one of the best TC I think. As when i got there I brought my ruler with me and they told me I couldn't use it as it has the formulas on the back. ( what is stupid as your CX-2 can do them all for you) but back to ruler.. they gave me one with the tape on the back I was in business..
But then I went Kelowna BC to do my CPL and got to TC and just realized that I had forgotten my ruler... I had a 9am apt.. and it was like 8:55 when i realised that I forgot it.. I told the TC lady (she was a bright one..) and see if i could use one of there.. She told me that we don't supply them.. so she told me that i could go back home to get it or not write today.. or I could go next door to the flight school, and buy one.. But my exam STARTS AT 9:00 if I'm late I'm LATE as the exam starts a 9:00.. so there was a PPL student writing and what we did was photo copy here ruler.. as the bright lady handed my a CM / inches ruler (i'm like how is this going to help me). so i got the Photo COPIED ruler.... Started my exam.. got to the NAV! and I started to measure and things weren't adding up right.. what I found wrong was the ruler got shrunk, as i measured it along the MAP Grid.. I was STRESSING OUT... but then I realized on the metal flight computer there is a ruler on there.. SAVED MY BUT...
I think TC should have a couple spares for you.. Damm we spend enough money and give them our fee's every year i think a $5 ruler ain't going to blow there budget....
But then I went Kelowna BC to do my CPL and got to TC and just realized that I had forgotten my ruler... I had a 9am apt.. and it was like 8:55 when i realised that I forgot it.. I told the TC lady (she was a bright one..) and see if i could use one of there.. She told me that we don't supply them.. so she told me that i could go back home to get it or not write today.. or I could go next door to the flight school, and buy one.. But my exam STARTS AT 9:00 if I'm late I'm LATE as the exam starts a 9:00.. so there was a PPL student writing and what we did was photo copy here ruler.. as the bright lady handed my a CM / inches ruler (i'm like how is this going to help me). so i got the Photo COPIED ruler.... Started my exam.. got to the NAV! and I started to measure and things weren't adding up right.. what I found wrong was the ruler got shrunk, as i measured it along the MAP Grid.. I was STRESSING OUT... but then I realized on the metal flight computer there is a ruler on there.. SAVED MY BUT...
I think TC should have a couple spares for you.. Damm we spend enough money and give them our fee's every year i think a $5 ruler ain't going to blow there budget....
Sorry I didn't answer before now.sakism wrote:BTW - I would be interested if TC Guy could provide some insight into why this person's ruler was taken away
Been a "busy" week.
I get on here when I can. The "ruler" issue. This has been one for the books, and as far as I know (and I don't know all, see all or do all) it is the discretion of the invigilator. This is where the situation gets a bit thorny. What constitutes "notes" on an exam?
My *personal* belief is that it should be more defined. But, TC is, in no way required to provide anyone with the equipment for the examnination.
My *personal* opinion is that, as an instructor sending a student many miles away to conduct an examination-- be sure you know the requirements. Were the invigilators doing their job? Yes.
Heck... you could do that job too... TC is getting out of the business of doing the RPP/PPL exams on April 1st (unless that is changed, no word yet). So, if you want, you could do the exams at your facility-- once approved, of course.
Information is here: https://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/activepag ... rocess.asp
Become part of the solution.
-Guy
