Flight instructor as a first job.

scm · Post by **scm** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:06 pm

Just wondering how many people here took up flight instructing as a first flying job? It seems that some here frown upon that.

I'm seriously considering doing instructing as a first job - but given the current industry maybe the ramp won't be so bad. Anyhow, i've flown at 5 different schools and +10 instructors so I have an idea of how not to be a bad instructor...

Miss Mae · Post by **Miss Mae** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:14 pm

I was a dispatcher and then worked my way into the instructing.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:18 pm

Not a bad first job. Just dont treat it that way. Isn't fair to your students. At any rate, it's far better than a ramp, or a dock. Too bad more people dont look at it as a career?

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:37 pm

If you want a route to a right seat job, go for it. If you want to learn to fly, try for a 206/185 job - tough to get, but far better in the long run if you do.

STL

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:09 pm

Any person who says instrucing isnt a real job has not had the pleasure of sitting with a student on short final whose brain had checked out on base.

I have had to literally beat my students off the controls to prevent nosing it in on the runway. It should be a prerequisite for an instructor to have reflexes like a cat

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:41 pm

Not saying it isn't scary once in a while. Just doesn't help you build any flying skills, that's all.

STL

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:11 pm

I can not even vote on the pole yet. Having said that, I think if you instruct because you want to instruct and not because its the quickest and easiest way too time build time its a good idea. I have an instructor now who is at 500 hours but knows his stuff pretty good, and if I stump him on a question he always looks it up and points it out to me the next time. I was at the tail end of my CPL when I got this instructor so he does not do much demonstrating for me. That aside, I think he is a great instructor 60% because of his attitude and 40% because of his knowledge and skill.

However I would pay a couple extra dollars to fly with a class 1 all the time.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:27 pm

Sky. What?

StepOnTheBall · Post by **StepOnTheBall** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:08 pm

sky's the limit wrote: Just doesn't help you build any flying skills, that's all.

STL

It's obvious that you have never been an instructor if you say something ignorant like that. What better way to learn than to watch people make mistakes all day? Like the saying goes "learn from the mistakes of others, because you won't live long enough to make them all yourself".

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:39 pm

Well Ball,

It's not a personal attack, relax.

But I have seen more ex-instructors who think they know how to fly than I care to remember.

You sit in the right seat, fly on nice days, usually not very far from home, teaching BASIC flight manouvers in a very controlled environment, no where near gross wieght in very docile machines. So please enlighten me as to how you learn anything of importance by "watching" beginners do beginner things?

From the bush to the IFR world, I have flown with guys in the 1500hr-4000hr range who can't handle the a/c - never had any reason to, and were never taught by anyone who knew how. That doesn't make them bad people, but it does prevent them from learning.

So don't lecture me about how good pilots low-time flight instructors are, you obvisouly have no idea. You'll do fine moving into a pavement to pavement type job, then to WJ or AC where the machine flies itself, but I dare you to stand on a float dock somewhere and tell the Beaver driver your hands and feet, weather knowledge, and decision making skills are comparable.

STL

StepOnTheBall · Post by **StepOnTheBall** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:02 pm

Ok, STL

Notice that I made no comment on the abilities or development of you "hands and feet" beaver drivers (I have to assume that you've actually done that). This is because I really can't comment about something i've never done. I find that when one tries to sound well informed about something they have never done before, they usually come off sounding quite ignorant. Bravo, STL!

I would think that there are, as with most situations, pros and cons to either method of building experience, but they both lead to the same place (potentially), and unfortunately (for you and your apparent "super skills") I think most potential employers look more at the big number in your logbook beside the words "GRAND TOTAL", rather than trying to ascertain who is in fact a more skilled "hands and feet" pilot.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:18 pm

[quote="sky's the limit"][/quote]

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:57 pm

Ball,

I'm so glad someone's finally recognised my "super skills..." About time!

And thank you for pointing out my obvious ignorance... You're right, I'm actually a disgruntled ex-instructor striving for ligitimacy.

At no time did I imply MY skills were super, but I have been fortunate enough to have access to the type of flying, environments, mentors and machines that teach a pilot many different skills from hands and feet, to decision making, to customer relations etc, etc.. I have been priviliged to learn from and fly with many great pilots, in the bush, in IFR, in airplanes and helicopters, some old, some young, and many in between - but make NO MISTAKE, the number of hours next to "Grand Total" as you say, had absolutely nothing to do with how good they were.

Therein lies the problem, but that's another conversation.

We all have different areas where our skills are required, from the bush to the Biz Jets, to the Airlines, to helicopters - they're all different - almost none of which do you build sitting right seat to a PPL candidate in the circuit. That's not to say you can't learn afterwards, but don't expect 2000hrs in 172 instructing to get you much - that's all.

As for me, I'm still trying to learn as much as I can from those who know things I do not, or have a better way, but if you'd like a resume, PM me, I'd be more than happy for you to look at it and let me know if "(I've) actually done that" in your opinion.

Regards,

STL

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:52 am

Bottom line is once you have mastered the basic flying skills its time to put them into practice everyday. Telling someone the ins and outs of a particular manuever then watching them preform it only develops your skill as a teacher not a pilot. When your guiding your new pupil to the point of proficiency on basic manuvers you barely touch the controls for one reason, learning new skills and mastering them is acomplished only by doing. Instructors ask yourself this, what was the hardest part of your Class 4 ride? I bet it was the ground briefing when hes picking you apart asking questions making sure you know the subject. Why because you are just learning how to convey to a student the subject. Its the same way with actual hands on flying skill it takes time to develop your stick and rudder skills as it does the Teaching skill.

Id hire a pilot with 500 hours driving a 206 over an instructor with 5000 hours driving a 172 in severe clear over the practice area.

Any person who says instrucing isnt a real job has not had the pleasure of sitting with a student on short final whose brain had checked out on base.

Hmm checked out on base eh, So who turned final to bring the aircraft to short final?

The skill to preserve ones life is better learned with your hands on the controls making every decision yourself.

I can not even vote on the pole yet. Having said that, I think if you instruct because you want to instruct and not because its the quickest and easiest way too time build time its a good idea. I have an instructor now who is at 500 hours but knows his stuff pretty good, and if I stump him on a question he always looks it up and points it out to me the next time. I was at the tail end of my CPL when I got this instructor so he does not do much demonstrating for me. That aside, I think he is a great instructor 60% because of his attitude and 40% because of his knowledge and skill. However I would pay a couple extra dollars to fly with a class 1 all the time

Exactly my point, your instructor is a great teacher and makes concepts easy to understand because he first is a great teacher (attitude & Knowledege) 80% Second: his skill 20%.

Oh and little known fact, Im an instructor. Never got to use the rating I fortunetly got a job after many road trips and being persistant. And carfully leaving the fact that I had the rating off resumes. I was told by one Chief Pilot "you know that if I had known you had an instructor rating you never would have been hired your resume would have gone in the Trash" food for thought children enjoy the wonders of avaiton

Comence Flaming

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:20 am

if I had known you had an instructor rating you never would have been hired your resume would have gone in the trash

Ah, the fine art of "dumbing down" your resume ....

Most newbies go all the way to the other extreme. I really don't know a 19 or 21 year old that needs a 17 page resume to describe what he's done in life so far, including his 3rd place finish in his 8th grade track & field day

A resume should be one STANDARD-SIZE 8.5x11 WHITE page. No odd-sized "cloud" paper. Stick to the relevant facts: concise info about you and your flight qualifications and experience. If you've lived on a farm, or have experience doing mechanical work, briefly mention that.

Suggestion: on the other side of the page, waste your ink cartridge and print up a picture of a gorgeous naked, well-endowed female. Nothing too detailed, this isn't a gynecology textbook. I will guarantee that the CP will throw out everybody else's resume, but yours will get tacked up on the wall

A slightly more expensive idea might be to include a small bottle of Crown Royal with your resume ....

Figure out some way to distinguish yourself from the pack. Sure, if the CP is a militant lesbian feminist vegan, your resume will get thrown out, but would you really want to work there anyways?

Over the Horn · Post by **Over the Horn** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:08 pm

I was told by one Chief Pilot "you know that if I had known you had an instructor rating you never would have been hired your resume would have gone in the Trash" food for thought children enjoy the wonders of avaiton

I can back this up we throw all resume's from instructors into the circular file, the boss has hired some in the past several of wich he sent packing due to their lack of common sense (run-ups on gravel, taxing into lights and generaly being whiny no-it-alls) I recall flying with an ex-instructor a few years ago he knew everything and anything about aviation as we turned final at 1000ft I wondered how he was going to get the airplane to the runway, he ripped the power out (risking shock cooling and many other fun things) like it was a turbine and tried to force the plane to the runway needless to say we floated for 3000ft of the 5000ft runway before he got the plane on the ground

, after I asked him why he was so high when he turned final he said he would never go lower than gliding distance to the runway at all times, it took along time to break him of this habit and the harsh power changes (for those of you still learning no matter what an instructor say's don't rip the power out of a piston engine espesially when its cold out if you do your likely to couse an eng failure or crack juggs not something you want at anytime let alone 200sm from the closest town). this is not a unique situation I've heard similar from others I know. That said not that all instructors are bad I've known a few really good ones usually they were older and had real world experiance, but how much does a 300-1000hrs instructor really know when most of that time is going around in circut, if you are a student always keep that in the back of your mind and don't take everything they say as the gospel truth especially if you are in a flight "college" things are alot different in the real world.

to sum things up instructor bad, bush good

3juggs · Post by **3juggs** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:02 pm

To say that all bush pilots are aviation gods and Instructors are whiny know-it-alls is abit general don't you think. There are alot of old bush pilots out there that have amazing hands and feet and a good head on their shoulders to match and there are Instructors out there I could say the same. What I'm getting at is with that said you have pilots out there in the bush and in the Instructor world that are also at the opposite end of the spectrum that couldn't fly a kit.I think the great pilots I know of would of been great no matter where they started.

PilotFlying · Post by **PilotFlying** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:35 am

C'mon folks. The amount of generalizations on here about instructors and bush pilots alike are rediculous. To say that a resume will be trashed based on the fact that the candidate has instructor experience simply because you have had a few bad apples in the past shows complete ignorance. I know instructors that will fly the pants off many bush pilots, and likewise many bush pilots that will outfly most instructors. There are duds in all areas of aviation.

And to say that instructors only fly basic maneuvers in basic aircraft in severe clear conditions may be true for beginning instuctors, but don't forget that there are advanced instructors teaching commercial, multi-engine, IFR and aerobatics, to name a few. Are you telling me that any bush pilot could roll out of a cuban eight with the precision of an aerobatic instructor, or have practiced as many engine failures to the point of perfection as a multi-engine instructor?

On the other side, it's also true that most instructors would not be able to judge surface winds with as much accuracy as a seasoned float pilot, or finesse an aircraft onto a dirt and debris covered strip cut into the bottom of a narrow valley with as much accuracy as a bush pilot.

It all comes down to where you're experience lies, and where you are going with it. Maybe the bush pilot who has mastered the gravel strip will never need to handle an engine failure on a twin, and maybe the instructor will never have to land a 206 on a dirt strip. But to go and say that most instructors are bad stick and rudder pilots with bad decision making and pilots with experience in the bush are near-perfect is plain rediculous. I mean c'mon, "run-ups on gravel, taxing into lights"? That's just plain lack of common sense, not a result of an instructing back ground. While there may be a few more spoiled bad apples as instructors who were less willing to give up their posh city life to go find work in the bush, don't take a hit on all instructors. There are many genuinely good guys and gals out there.

Get real.

scm · Post by **scm** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:56 am

thanks for all the replies

cheers
scm

Raven20000 · Post by **Raven20000** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:44 am

To comment on this subject, every flight department would benefit for having a good mix of flight instructors and bush pilots cause they both bring good points to the table, and for bush pilots and instructor abilities it all comes down to the indiviual just like in any proffession, you get you good and bad. But if a operator only deals with the bad instructors then of course his opinion of instructors will be terrible. The bad apples ruin it for everybody.

But for what decision you SCM should make, if you can do the ramp, cause it is true alot of operators only hire for the right seat from their ramp, it is the cold hard truth. I went through alot to move on from instructing for that very reason.

But if you are going to work the ramp don't be surprised if it takes 2 years to move to the right seat but then again if your instructing it takes a long time also to move on and pay in both position sucks.

What ever route you choose best of luck!

2close4missiles · Post by **2close4missiles** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:58 pm

There's never a problem with instructing and then working the ramp (or at the same time)... If you're looking to get through the pack and end up ramp with a good chance of flying next then I think the instructor route is a good one. There is a huge learning curve involved with the rating, you stay super current and your skill doesn't degrade. You live, eat and breathe the flight school atmosphere and most of the people you deal with are other instructors with great tips and insights into teaching and flying. I don't think it is a bad route to instruct first. 1000PIC never hurt anyone... even if it is extreme clear over the practice area.

Flight instructor as a first job.

Was instructing your first flying job?

Flight instructor as a first job.