Simply put, an education is the single most important thing that you young pilots can do for yourselves. You learn better when your young, it makes you more marketable, and it provides a safety net should aviation not work out for you.
You have to have doors opening not closing. Education opens doors. It is so easy when your young to have tunnel vision. Take off the blinders and think outside of the box. Their is literally a world of opportunity out there for you. Sorry for the cliche's
GETTING AN EDUCATION
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Shiny Side Up
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If you would have taken the time to read you might see that I was agreeing with you on some points, my arguement being that while higher education is one part of basing advancement and pay, its not the only one.smartass wrote:
SHiny, shiny, shiny...
You've expelled so much wind without giving any thought.
Well to that point you were probably the easiest patient they had that day, You probably weren't there for the restraining of the burned natives, the drunken accident rednecks or any of the other pleasant things they get to deal with all while working a 14 hr shift understaffed all while the doctor comes back from the golf course.I'm sorry I don't understand where the nurses responsibilities have increased. Although I am very thankfull for the services that they provide I can not understand a wage increase. If its all about the money, go to the states. We can't have a health care system as we know it unless we start cutting back.
Careful what you wish for.Myself personally, I welcome the American system. All of the people going to the doctor for bumps and bruises would be paying for it themeselves. I don't understand how people think that our system is better. The system as a whole costs a lot more to run and do you think the government pays for it? We pay!!! All it is is a forced private health care plan. Just because its a national health care doesn't mean that it is magically funded by some hidden gov. income. We pay through taxes and premiums. You can't pick and choose what level of protection we want and if you go to the doctor only for serious problems, you still pay as much as someone who goes everyday for coffee. The more you make the more you pay. This is planning on being extended to a level where it increases even more with national and provincial premiums based soley on income.
Hard work does pay off, just not as much thanks to our Government. But its the price we pay for having a decent social consience. The Canadian system is designed so that the unfortunate don't fall through the cracks. Its called socialism, and it works to some degree. But like all systems there are ways of corrupting it. Does the US system work? Sure it does its set up that hard work pays more but it also has the pit falls of it being easier for the rich being able to take greater advantage of the poor - and they pay the price. A larger percentage of peopel who fall through the system means higher crime rates and other social problems. Personally I prefer to take care of them now.Once again working back to the degree argument. I put it all on the line to get myself on firm ground and make a descent salary. The closer I get to succeeding the more money is being thrown into this public pool. We are turning into a communist state where people don't get awarded for getting educated, skilled, experienced. Why should I pay $30,000 in education without expecting any return from it? Am I the selfish one or is the person who doesn't bother achieving anything because he knows it will be provided by those who do? Hard work should pay off!!!!!
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Got to love those rose colored glasses. I have been working in pre-hospital medicine for 30 years. If you think that every case that comes to the door is a nice little old lady with a stable hip fracture you are so wrong. I chose pre-hospital medicine over hospital for a couple reasons. I have a great variety, I only have to deal with the majority of the patients for about fifteen minutes, I am outdoors for the most part, and I don't have to put up with the abuse that I got when I was nursing.
I have had a blessed career in that I have worked very few years of 24 hour car. You can take 10 years off your life for working shift work. With the rotation that these people work they miss a lot of what happens in the childrens and spouses lives and they have about a 85% divorce rate.
Canadas system could use an overhaul for sure, but the American system only makes the Insurance companies richer. We have a two teered system now. if you have the money, you can jump the cue and go private for most things. User fees were tried and found to be hazardous to some of societies health as they would stay at home until they were either really sick or dead because the fixed income they were on could not afford the $10. Something will happen in Canadian health care before too long and it won't be pretty.
I have had a blessed career in that I have worked very few years of 24 hour car. You can take 10 years off your life for working shift work. With the rotation that these people work they miss a lot of what happens in the childrens and spouses lives and they have about a 85% divorce rate.
Canadas system could use an overhaul for sure, but the American system only makes the Insurance companies richer. We have a two teered system now. if you have the money, you can jump the cue and go private for most things. User fees were tried and found to be hazardous to some of societies health as they would stay at home until they were either really sick or dead because the fixed income they were on could not afford the $10. Something will happen in Canadian health care before too long and it won't be pretty.
Although I strongly believe that every person is entitled to their opinion and their point of view, some things being said about education and health care on this board are absolutely wrong.
First, with regards to the American health care system versus ours, it should be noted that the American Gov't actually spends more per capita on health care than the Canadian Gov't (quite a bit more in fact - overall the American Health Care System costs much more than our public system). This fact was just highlighted today in a newly released study comparing health care in the US, Canada, and three European countries.
Second, education is the number 1 reason this country is consistently ranked amongst one of the best places in the world to live. Education and standard of living are directly correlated. There are nice graphs that show how the standard of living in a country increases with the number of people with graduate degrees (Master's and PhD's) living in that country.
Also, in 2002, StatsCan identified 180,000 Canadians with a net worth of more than $1,000,000 (excluding Real Estate). Of those 180,000 people, 82% had a bachelor's degree from a post secondary institution and an astounding 38% held a graduate degree. Maybe its just me, but I think that says a great deal about the role education plays in people's lives.
The fact of the matter is that some sort of post-secondary education is fast becoming a pre-requisite for any and every job in this country. If you choose not to attend college, university or a technical institution, you will pay in the form of decreased opportunity and standard of living. There will be fewer and fewer jobs available in the primary sectors as our economy continues to push forward into a knowledge based economy.
On another note, Bill Gates was a Harvard dropout. Just getting into Harvard is the equivalent of completing a bachelor's degree at a regular University, and Gates once said that one of his regrets in life was not completing his degree there. Also, I really don't care if an engineer can complete a paper without a single grammar error, I'd rather he or she completely understand the math, physics, and engineering of building the skyscraper I'm sitting in.
Well, that's my opinion and I guess I'm entitled to it just like anyone else.
First, with regards to the American health care system versus ours, it should be noted that the American Gov't actually spends more per capita on health care than the Canadian Gov't (quite a bit more in fact - overall the American Health Care System costs much more than our public system). This fact was just highlighted today in a newly released study comparing health care in the US, Canada, and three European countries.
Second, education is the number 1 reason this country is consistently ranked amongst one of the best places in the world to live. Education and standard of living are directly correlated. There are nice graphs that show how the standard of living in a country increases with the number of people with graduate degrees (Master's and PhD's) living in that country.
Also, in 2002, StatsCan identified 180,000 Canadians with a net worth of more than $1,000,000 (excluding Real Estate). Of those 180,000 people, 82% had a bachelor's degree from a post secondary institution and an astounding 38% held a graduate degree. Maybe its just me, but I think that says a great deal about the role education plays in people's lives.
The fact of the matter is that some sort of post-secondary education is fast becoming a pre-requisite for any and every job in this country. If you choose not to attend college, university or a technical institution, you will pay in the form of decreased opportunity and standard of living. There will be fewer and fewer jobs available in the primary sectors as our economy continues to push forward into a knowledge based economy.
On another note, Bill Gates was a Harvard dropout. Just getting into Harvard is the equivalent of completing a bachelor's degree at a regular University, and Gates once said that one of his regrets in life was not completing his degree there. Also, I really don't care if an engineer can complete a paper without a single grammar error, I'd rather he or she completely understand the math, physics, and engineering of building the skyscraper I'm sitting in.
Well, that's my opinion and I guess I'm entitled to it just like anyone else.
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shitdisturber
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Fascinating figures but there's one little teensy weensy problem with them. How many of those 180,000 were born with a net worth of more than $1,000,00? Unless you have that information to go along with your stats, they're pretty much meaningless. I'd be really interested to see if Stats Can kept a list of how many people with post secondary educations and lots of money managed to piss it all away.2bornot2b wrote:
Also, in 2002, StatsCan identified 180,000 Canadians with a net worth of more than $1,000,000 (excluding Real Estate). Of those 180,000 people, 82% had a bachelor's degree from a post secondary institution and an astounding 38% held a graduate degree. Maybe its just me, but I think that says a great deal about the role education plays in people's lives.
"You can prove anything you want with statistics Kent, 75% of people know that"
Not to mention it is rather obvious that 2b did not take advantage of his higher education and sign up for a statistics course. If i find a correlation between the current fashion in women's skirts and the price of gold does that mean that skirts control gold? Or gold controls skirts?
Just because they have $1,000,000 and a degree does not mean one is the cause of the other, and certainly does not mean that the first is the cause of the second.
Just because they have $1,000,000 and a degree does not mean one is the cause of the other, and certainly does not mean that the first is the cause of the second.
People with a degree are quick to juge others without one...And the opposite is true! Same with Silled trades!!
No one here can argue that a Degree or any form of education will hurt...The proof, we all studied to become pilots and didn't get worse at it!
If you want one, get one! Don't expect more out of it than a degree! If you don't believe in higher education, than don't waste your time, life has lots to offer! If you decide you might want one later, you can always get it!
No point in trying to find a corelation between B Gates, is unfinished degree and his Billions
Cheers
No one here can argue that a Degree or any form of education will hurt...The proof, we all studied to become pilots and didn't get worse at it!
If you want one, get one! Don't expect more out of it than a degree! If you don't believe in higher education, than don't waste your time, life has lots to offer! If you decide you might want one later, you can always get it!
No point in trying to find a corelation between B Gates, is unfinished degree and his Billions
Cheers
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. BuffettI knew I shouldn't have gotten involved!!
First off, I never said I had a higher education.
Second I find it funny that neither of you disputes the fact that the standard of living in a country is directly related to the # of people with higher education living and working in that country.
Third, you're right, I don't know how many of those 180,000 were born millionares, but don't you think that just the fact that they have the education underlines its importance.
Fourth, I'm willing to bet that more millionares without an education piss away all their money than those with education (case in point - athletes and other celebrities).
Fifth, if done properly, statistics do indicate whether one variable is the cause of another or vice versa which most of us learn in High School by the way - not college or university.
As an aside, if anyone watched The Apprentice, most of the people I talked to agreed that Troy was by far the smartest and savviest of the people on the show; however, he was passed over by Trump because of his lack of education. That kind of situation happens all the time in the business world. For many positions posted, if you don't have the credentials on your resume, you won't even get an interview.
What I'm afraid of is that some very young and impressionable people read these forums, and may decide not to pursue getting an education as a result of some of the things posted here. For someone in their mid to late teens who wants to be a pilot for a major regional, national or international airline in the future - you will not get there anymore if you don't have some form of post-secondary education. You are competing against other people that realize that, at a minimum, education will set them apart from other candidates.
You wouldn't burn any bridges in the aviation world, would you? So why close doors by not getting some form of post secondary education - whether it be a skilled trade, college diploma, or university degree.
First off, I never said I had a higher education.
Second I find it funny that neither of you disputes the fact that the standard of living in a country is directly related to the # of people with higher education living and working in that country.
Third, you're right, I don't know how many of those 180,000 were born millionares, but don't you think that just the fact that they have the education underlines its importance.
Fourth, I'm willing to bet that more millionares without an education piss away all their money than those with education (case in point - athletes and other celebrities).
Fifth, if done properly, statistics do indicate whether one variable is the cause of another or vice versa which most of us learn in High School by the way - not college or university.
As an aside, if anyone watched The Apprentice, most of the people I talked to agreed that Troy was by far the smartest and savviest of the people on the show; however, he was passed over by Trump because of his lack of education. That kind of situation happens all the time in the business world. For many positions posted, if you don't have the credentials on your resume, you won't even get an interview.
What I'm afraid of is that some very young and impressionable people read these forums, and may decide not to pursue getting an education as a result of some of the things posted here. For someone in their mid to late teens who wants to be a pilot for a major regional, national or international airline in the future - you will not get there anymore if you don't have some form of post-secondary education. You are competing against other people that realize that, at a minimum, education will set them apart from other candidates.
You wouldn't burn any bridges in the aviation world, would you? So why close doors by not getting some form of post secondary education - whether it be a skilled trade, college diploma, or university degree.
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shitdisturber
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Hardly; if , for arguments sake, 175,000 of them were born into money, leaving aside the 5,000 or so who got lucky at 649 it proves nothing whatsoever. Families with money, upon completion of high school; will pack up junior's grad present car and send him off to whatever ivy covered institution suits them. Saying he's off at Harvard or McGill or wherever is as much a status symbol as the Rolls in the garage. The fact that he could be taking basket weaving 101 is irrelevant.2bornot2b wrote:
Third, you're right, I don't know how many of those 180,000 were born millionares, but don't you think that just the fact that they have the education underlines its importance.
Last edited by shitdisturber on Thu May 06, 2004 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Go Shitdisturbuer!
If you're born upper caste, chances are you'll stay upper caste.
I have a friend with a History BA and has been delivering pizzas for ten years.
I have another that has a law degree. He made $45,000 a year while he articled, then his dad died and left him the family business. Now he's rich as snot (new Porsche, hot wife, $400,000 house) Did HIS degree make him rich?
As a side note, I find rich people born into it less snotty than the people who had to f*ck over a lot of people and work their way up to wealth.
Aw, shucks, I'm boozed again and jealous as shit. Wait a minute, I'll start a new thread!!
-istp
If you're born upper caste, chances are you'll stay upper caste.
I have a friend with a History BA and has been delivering pizzas for ten years.
I have another that has a law degree. He made $45,000 a year while he articled, then his dad died and left him the family business. Now he's rich as snot (new Porsche, hot wife, $400,000 house) Did HIS degree make him rich?
As a side note, I find rich people born into it less snotty than the people who had to f*ck over a lot of people and work their way up to wealth.
Aw, shucks, I'm boozed again and jealous as shit. Wait a minute, I'll start a new thread!!
-istp
Shit...shitdisturber wrote:Hardly; if , for arguments sake, 175,000 of them were born into money, leaving aside the 5,000 or so who got lucky at 649 it proves nothing whatsoever. Families with money, upon completion of high school; will pack up junior's grad present car and send him off to whatever ivy covered institution suits them. Saying he's off at Harvard or McGill or wherever is as much a status symbol as the Rolls in the garage. The fact that he could be taking basket weaving 101 is irrelevant.2bornot2b wrote:
Third, you're right, I don't know how many of those 180,000 were born millionares, but don't you think that just the fact that they have the education underlines its importance.
2be has some great points. First off completing a degree at Harvard or McGill whether in basketweaving or in neuroscience, takes an immense amount of dedication and work. You not only need the grades to get in but you need to hold onto them for four years of intesive coarses. If you spent one day in class there you would realise this. If the stat stated they had post secondary education then you would have a point. It doesn't say this it says a degree. What about the 38% that had their Phd??? Was that just a rich mommy and daddys wishes while sonny got hammered at campus? Phd's are incredibaley difficult to achieve, I don't know how I can show you that, I thought most people simpley understood it. It's not some "status" symbol it is hard work!!!.
Also for all of you that have expressed that you feel those that have degrees have attitudes, why don't you look back through the posts. Whenever we come up with an idea, half the forum slags it as a snobby educated attitude. For example the Psych major that analyzed this behaviour as a an inferiority complex. He was right away slagged because for one it hit home, and for two you wouldn't take a second and think that just maybe someone having a hand up on you does cause you to feel slightly below them. I mean who likes their boss? The majority don't and mock his decisions, so why is this? I mean he worked hard and proved himself to get into that position so why do we hate him? Could it be we feel inferior to him? I don't neccessarily agree with psycho analysts but at least I have the decency to listen to their comment and counter the argument with something more than... "That's just typical of the snobby educated people to start talking like they're above us etc. etc.."
Yet on the other hand, I haven't seen one post on here with someone telling an uneducated person that you're only saying that because you are a stupid uneducated mindless pond scum. I mean this is basically the same way that you are approaching our opinions is it not. So who has the attitude???
I really think that a lot of us are on equal playing fields with or without education but those that are, spent just as much time researching the subject on their own as the individuals that completed the schooling. Unfortunately the individual that will be hired is the one that can prove that he studied and learned the subject to a certain level.
Greenwich you can buy me a beer any time!!!
I definately think it is dead but I thought I'd give it one last kick while it was down.
I listen to Psychic Analysts, but it's been proven John Edwards is a sham, but he's got his PhD in ESP, so he must be communicating with the dead, regardless of what some uneducated people say about him, right? And he's published numerous works, so he must be marvelled? Now, don't go bad mouthing John...smartass wrote: Could it be we feel inferior to him? I don't neccessarily agree with psycho analysts but at least I have the decency to listen to their comment and counter the argument with something more than... "That's just typical of the snobby educated people to start talking like they're above us etc. etc.."
The Bre-X Chairs all had an education and all got rich, but how many "stupid" yet "educated" people dumped their life savings into Bre-X, Enron, Nortel??
So your 180k richly educated people just swindled everyone out of wealth. Good for them.
I love Capitalism at it's finest.
If you or anyone else made that comment it would be redundant, "you're stupid, 'cause you have no education." Also, when you boast about having an education, it's best not to make oneself look like an ass with errors.Yet on the other hand, I haven't seen one post on here with someone telling an uneducated person that you're only saying that because you are a stupid uneducated mindless pond scum. I mean this is basically the same way that you are approaching our opinions is it not. So who has the attitude???
That's why the Homer joke is funny "I am so SMART" "S-M-R-T, I mean S.M.A.R.T"
Correct and that's unfortunate.I really think that a lot of us are on equal playing fields with or without education but those that are, spent just as much time researching the subject on their own as the individuals that completed the schooling. Unfortunately the individual that will be hired is the one that can prove that he studied and learned the subject to a certain level.
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shitdisturber
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smartass wrote:
Shit...
2be has some great points. First off completing a degree at Harvard or McGill whether in basketweaving or in neuroscience, takes an immense amount of dedication and work. You not only need the grades to get in but you need to hold onto them for four years of intesive coarses. If you spent one day in class there you would realise this. If the stat stated they had post secondary education then you would have a point. It doesn't say this it says a degree. What about the 38% that had their Phd??? Was that just a rich mommy and daddys wishes while sonny got hammered at campus? Phd's are incredibaley difficult to achieve, I don't know how I can show you that, I thought most people simpley understood it. It's not some "status" symbol it is hard work!!!.
Where to begin? You need to study intensively in basket weaving? Or in McGill or Harvard? Do you have facts or are you just theorizing again? Can you explain how Brooke Shields, the titless wonder, got through a Harvard Arts program studying the films of Louis Malle? Interestingly enough, she starred in one of his movies; wonder how hard she worked on her degree. It reminds me of a guy I went to high school with; he got a scholarship in New York State to "study" Hotel Management. By some strange coincidence he was one of the best basketball players in Ontario. Not bad for a "C" student eh? As for the 38% that have their PhD; go figure, they've got the money to pursue it, more power to em. Does Stats Can mention how many individuals who put food on the plate by flipping burgers at Mickey D's while they study, get their PhD? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess, not many.
Also for all of you that have expressed that you feel those that have degrees have attitudes, why don't you look back through the posts. Whenever we come up with an idea, half the forum slags it as a snobby educated attitude. For example the Psych major that analyzed this behaviour as a an inferiority complex. He was right away slagged because for one it hit home, and for two you wouldn't take a second and think that just maybe someone having a hand up on you does cause you to feel slightly below them. I mean who likes their boss? The majority don't and mock his decisions, so why is this? I mean he worked hard and proved himself to get into that position so why do we hate him? Could it be we feel inferior to him? I don't neccessarily agree with psycho analysts but at least I have the decency to listen to their comment and counter the argument with something more than... "That's just typical of the snobby educated people to start talking like they're above us etc. etc.."
I like this one. First, nowhere in his thead does he claim to be a Psyche major. You made the assumption since he sounded knowledgeable. Haven't you ever heard " a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?" Apparently along with spelling and grammar, your alma mater missed out on reading comprehension as well. Hence my original response to his post, that it smacks of the arrogance some of you scroll waving, pseudo intellectuals seem to indulge in. If you wish to check me on this one, his name is wallypilot and he's on page one; his only post on this thread. Actually, my boss seems to be a pretty decent guy since you ask.
Yet on the other hand, I haven't seen one post on here with someone telling an uneducated person that you're only saying that because you are a stupid uneducated mindless pond scum. I mean this is basically the same way that you are approaching our opinions is it not. So who has the attitude???
As for who has the attitude? It's pretty simple, "you don't wave your achievements in my face; I won't wave mine in yours" pretty much sums up my attitude. It's only when you get individuals like the guy Mach 1, I believe it was, mentioned; "I have a diploma and a degree so I should get paid the most." Throw that at me at work and I guarantee I'll go out of my way to make your life a living hell; and I won't be alone!
I really think that a lot of us are on equal playing fields with or without education but those that are, spent just as much time researching the subject on their own as the individuals that completed the schooling. Unfortunately the individual that will be hired is the one that can prove that he studied and learned the subject to a certain level.
Greenwich you can buy me a beer any time!!!
I definately think it is dead but I thought I'd give it one last kick while it was down.
Exactly what I was talking about!!!! You can't seem to come up with a good opinion of your own so you pick 1 word out of 10,000 and provide conclusive proof that people with an education are illiterate. How about the fact that it was 1:00 am and I really don't care if I didn't punch all of the keys perfectly, it is my argument that you should be critiquing. Hey look I used 3 exclamation marks... that is a major error too. But I guess I have a degree so everything I do should be perfect!!ahramin wrote:I take it english is not one of these intensive courses?smartass wrote:need to hold onto them for four years of intesive coarses
Do you really think I go around saying "intesive"??? Do you not think that there is a slight possibility that I was typing more than 1 word per minute and might have not pressed the "n" hard enough??? Maybe if you had written more than a one-line response I could have the pleasure of highlighting your many grammatical and spelling errors, but I guess if it took you 20 min to pigeon type 11 words, that should suffice. The more responses that are made on here the more pissed off I get. I guess I should start posting my pay stubs and have the last laugh. At least that way some naive 16 year old might see that there is a reason for pursing their education!!!
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shitdisturber
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Every 16 year old should purse an education. Unless they're male of course, then I guess they should wallet an education. Did they never teach you to proof read at university? That way when you make those little typing errors you don't end up looking foolish. Believe me, despite your passionate cries of outrage regarding the unfair abuse you've been taking over it; that's what happens to you.smartass wrote:
At least that way some naive 16 year old might see that there is a reason for pursing their education!!!
Are you further pissed off now?
He who loses his temper has confessed he's lost the argument.
Shitdisturber (and anyone considering whether or not they should attend post secondary education).
This info comes directly from the statscan website at http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor50a.htm. I don't care how you try to spin it, these numbers speak for themselves. You can find the same info from the Bureau of Labour Statistics in the US. Education will provide you with a much improved standard of living.
Average earnings of the population 15 years and over by highest level of schooling - 2001 Census
Less than high school graduation certificate : $21,230
High school graduation certificate and/or some postsecondary: $25,477
Trades certificate or diploma: $32,743
College certificate or diploma: $32,736
University certificate, diploma or degree: $48,648
Source: Statistics Canada, Census of Population.
On average, someone with a bachelors degree makes nearly twice as much as someone with only a high school diploma.
Do a search on any search engine comparing starting salaries with education level and you will come across thousands of studies and articles supporting the above. This isn't a theory, it's been proven time and time again.
This info comes directly from the statscan website at http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor50a.htm. I don't care how you try to spin it, these numbers speak for themselves. You can find the same info from the Bureau of Labour Statistics in the US. Education will provide you with a much improved standard of living.
Average earnings of the population 15 years and over by highest level of schooling - 2001 Census
Less than high school graduation certificate : $21,230
High school graduation certificate and/or some postsecondary: $25,477
Trades certificate or diploma: $32,743
College certificate or diploma: $32,736
University certificate, diploma or degree: $48,648
Source: Statistics Canada, Census of Population.
On average, someone with a bachelors degree makes nearly twice as much as someone with only a high school diploma.
Do a search on any search engine comparing starting salaries with education level and you will come across thousands of studies and articles supporting the above. This isn't a theory, it's been proven time and time again.
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shitdisturber
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I really hate to break it to you but the survey is itself skewed in favour of higher education. Since they included kids as young as fifteen, how many of them do you think have bachelors degrees? In Canada, maybe what, two or three? What kind of jobs do those fifteen to seventeen year old kids have for the most part? That's right, minimum wage. Therefore, the average wage of those with high school or less is artificially low.2bornot2b wrote:Shitdisturber (and anyone considering whether or not they should attend post secondary education).
This info comes directly from the statscan website at http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/labor50a.htm. I don't care how you try to spin it, these numbers speak for themselves. You can find the same info from the Bureau of Labour Statistics in the US. Education will provide you with a much improved standard of living.
Average earnings of the population 15 years and over by highest level of schooling - 2001 Census
Less than high school graduation certificate : $21,230
High school graduation certificate and/or some postsecondary: $25,477
Trades certificate or diploma: $32,743
College certificate or diploma: $32,736
University certificate, diploma or degree: $48,648
Source: Statistics Canada, Census of Population.
On average, someone with a bachelors degree makes nearly twice as much as someone with only a high school diploma.
Do a search on any search engine comparing starting salaries with education level and you will come across thousands of studies and articles supporting the above. This isn't a theory, it's been proven time and time again.
I wouldn't discourage anybody from pursuing a degree if that's what they want out of life. But the original question of this thread was why people are hostile to those with degrees. As has been answered many times by many people; it's a matter of attitude. There are some of you out there, who are giving the rest of you a bad name.
"You can prove anything you want with statistics Kent, 75% of people know that."
Shitdisturber,
The statistics are not skewed. The study includes those under 18 because they include a category for those with less than a high school diploma and does not include people who are only part-time or are still in school. It only includes those who are 15 and over who are in the work force full time - i.e. have dropped out (this is called the "labour force participation rate"). This is how all Canadian unemployment stats are reported. This fact only proves the value of education even more - drop out at 15 and you are screwed compared to others who go on to graduate, and even more screwed compared to those who go on to post-secondary education.
If I just compared all 40 year olds with differing education levels, the stats would still be the same. Those with higher education would be making much more than those without higher education.
If you're still not satisfied with my argument, check this one out from the U.S. Bureau of Labour Statistics that compares earnings for those 25 and over (http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm). It shows that those with only a high school diploma earn US$29,200/year whereas those with a bachelors degree earn US$47,000/year.
I could show you evidence like this for days; however, I agree with you that some people are snobs when it comes to their education which is why other people lack respect for them. However, that can be said of any group of people (pilots included)- there are always a few that are dumb asses with egos that make an entire group look bad. It's called stereotyping, and those who stereotype other people are just as bad, if not worse, than those with "trumped"-up (pun intended) egos.
The statistics are not skewed. The study includes those under 18 because they include a category for those with less than a high school diploma and does not include people who are only part-time or are still in school. It only includes those who are 15 and over who are in the work force full time - i.e. have dropped out (this is called the "labour force participation rate"). This is how all Canadian unemployment stats are reported. This fact only proves the value of education even more - drop out at 15 and you are screwed compared to others who go on to graduate, and even more screwed compared to those who go on to post-secondary education.
If I just compared all 40 year olds with differing education levels, the stats would still be the same. Those with higher education would be making much more than those without higher education.
If you're still not satisfied with my argument, check this one out from the U.S. Bureau of Labour Statistics that compares earnings for those 25 and over (http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm). It shows that those with only a high school diploma earn US$29,200/year whereas those with a bachelors degree earn US$47,000/year.
I could show you evidence like this for days; however, I agree with you that some people are snobs when it comes to their education which is why other people lack respect for them. However, that can be said of any group of people (pilots included)- there are always a few that are dumb asses with egos that make an entire group look bad. It's called stereotyping, and those who stereotype other people are just as bad, if not worse, than those with "trumped"-up (pun intended) egos.
I've been following this topic for a few days and it seems like the posters gets polarized when they really agree on more things than they think. The idea of education seems to always involve degrees and how good or useless they are. The importance of further education cannot be stressed enough, but the best education to persue beyond high school depends on the student and many other factors. This will not necessarily be a degree.
A person can learn all the relevant information about themselves and the world they live in by doing any number of other things. These options may be diploma, Trade ticket, Canadian Forces, CFL, or drywalling with dad. The important thing is to do something where you have to apply yourself and you should be able to support yourself. There is a certain kind of common sense and analytical thinking that is required to trouble-shoot an engine, this is not what a B.A. teaches. Many B.A.'s are capable of this but were nver trained or had the opportunity unless they had a 'hobby'.
I think the general public (or maybe the posters on this forum) need to respect the achievement of those who get their education outside of traditional universities. We need to remove the stigma of not being university educated, when a technical education can instill just as many valuable qualities.
Kids in high school now need to be shown the sheer variety of careers and training available outside the B.A. or B.Sc., many of which lead to lucrative careers. All of the other options will make a more well rounded person for the 'airline job'. Also, the apprenticeship system is underrated in North America but seems to be operating unofficially in avaiation in Canada.
A person can learn all the relevant information about themselves and the world they live in by doing any number of other things. These options may be diploma, Trade ticket, Canadian Forces, CFL, or drywalling with dad. The important thing is to do something where you have to apply yourself and you should be able to support yourself. There is a certain kind of common sense and analytical thinking that is required to trouble-shoot an engine, this is not what a B.A. teaches. Many B.A.'s are capable of this but were nver trained or had the opportunity unless they had a 'hobby'.
I think the general public (or maybe the posters on this forum) need to respect the achievement of those who get their education outside of traditional universities. We need to remove the stigma of not being university educated, when a technical education can instill just as many valuable qualities.
Kids in high school now need to be shown the sheer variety of careers and training available outside the B.A. or B.Sc., many of which lead to lucrative careers. All of the other options will make a more well rounded person for the 'airline job'. Also, the apprenticeship system is underrated in North America but seems to be operating unofficially in avaiation in Canada.
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just curious
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Advanced education beyond the minimum required to get an aviator employed may be completely irrelevant in Canada... until you lose your medical. Next time you're at the airport, take a look... and see what percentage of that airport's working pilots are over fifty. If the answer is "Not much" then perhaps the idea of having a back-up is useful after all.
That back-up may not be a Harvard Basket Weaving Degree.
Thing One (in Dr Suess terms for those who can't read and comprehend too well), most of us don't and won't ever have the Harvard tuition cash
.
Thing Two, unless we are reasonably good at and really enjoy basket weaving, we're likely going to flunk out in any event.
Since posters here are at least barely computer literate, a diploma in some aspect of computing might be useful. How many people at the entry level user mark, have screwed up their hardware/ software apps to the point where their nephew can't cure the problem anymore? How many people are adding networks to their home? Working for Redhat or Nortel might not be realistic for an old bush driver with a bad heart, but the local computerworld sales/install shop might be a reasonable prospect, and wouldn't neccessarily mean moving. Neither to take the courses nor get the work.
For that matter, most of us are promoted in companies by virtue of hours or experience. Since I've got both, I'm fine with that
. I couldn't help noting over the years that Management, often refered to as Them do not seem suited to the position. Sometimes, I'll grant you, it is because their head is firmly up another difficult-to-reach part of their anatomy. Oftentimes though it is because good ol' Fred the Line Driver doesn't know how to use Lotus or Excel to work a crew schedule as Chief Pilot, or Powerpoint as theTraining Captain. Nor can he write a report to Transport to explain why Joe Bloggs had to fly under that bridge, because the last time he had to write anything was in grade 9 explaining his summer vacation.
Not even a degree or a diploma but 30 hours in a year or two of evening courses would have permitted Fred to explain that Joe had to fly under the bridge because excessive turbulence above 8 feet had threatened the stability of the three patients in the back of his 172. And he could forward the excel speadsheet showing that Joe had been scheduled off to attend a class on the effects of altitiude over 100 feet on medevac patients, along with Powerpoint slides of those dramatic effects.
True, he's likely going to kick Joes ass over this, but at least the company's going to look like they have genuinely trained idiots as opposed to the usual idiots.
Personally, I say a silent prayer of thanks for all the other competitors for my dream job (whenever I figure out what that is
) that they might all be uneducated head in the sand old guys with the same hours as me, but nothing extra to show on the resume.
You and me both apply at, say, WestJet. We both have 4000.3 hours. You've got your high school matric, and I've taken courses in Organizational behavior with a focus on team- building, along with data-base programming similar to inputting the FMC data. I'm able to show via a Pwerpoint show how I was able to facilite training improvements in my last company, while uniting all of our disparate groups ( Pilots, management, flight attendants, Maintenance, and counter staff:lol:) in love and harmony.
You've still got 4000.3 hours, but all you are going to be able to amplify is that yeah, you could do that stuff too but you were too busy battling them uppity co-creatures, and fighting with no-nothing management.
Education may not make you rich, but it can help you to keep from losing the opportunity to put food on the table, and maybe let you exploit those opportunities in a non-Regency sort of way.
That back-up may not be a Harvard Basket Weaving Degree.
Thing One (in Dr Suess terms for those who can't read and comprehend too well), most of us don't and won't ever have the Harvard tuition cash
. Thing Two, unless we are reasonably good at and really enjoy basket weaving, we're likely going to flunk out in any event.
Since posters here are at least barely computer literate, a diploma in some aspect of computing might be useful. How many people at the entry level user mark, have screwed up their hardware/ software apps to the point where their nephew can't cure the problem anymore? How many people are adding networks to their home? Working for Redhat or Nortel might not be realistic for an old bush driver with a bad heart, but the local computerworld sales/install shop might be a reasonable prospect, and wouldn't neccessarily mean moving. Neither to take the courses nor get the work.
For that matter, most of us are promoted in companies by virtue of hours or experience. Since I've got both, I'm fine with that
. I couldn't help noting over the years that Management, often refered to as Them do not seem suited to the position. Sometimes, I'll grant you, it is because their head is firmly up another difficult-to-reach part of their anatomy. Oftentimes though it is because good ol' Fred the Line Driver doesn't know how to use Lotus or Excel to work a crew schedule as Chief Pilot, or Powerpoint as theTraining Captain. Nor can he write a report to Transport to explain why Joe Bloggs had to fly under that bridge, because the last time he had to write anything was in grade 9 explaining his summer vacation.Not even a degree or a diploma but 30 hours in a year or two of evening courses would have permitted Fred to explain that Joe had to fly under the bridge because excessive turbulence above 8 feet had threatened the stability of the three patients in the back of his 172. And he could forward the excel speadsheet showing that Joe had been scheduled off to attend a class on the effects of altitiude over 100 feet on medevac patients, along with Powerpoint slides of those dramatic effects.
True, he's likely going to kick Joes ass over this, but at least the company's going to look like they have genuinely trained idiots as opposed to the usual idiots.
Personally, I say a silent prayer of thanks for all the other competitors for my dream job (whenever I figure out what that is
) that they might all be uneducated head in the sand old guys with the same hours as me, but nothing extra to show on the resume.You and me both apply at, say, WestJet. We both have 4000.3 hours. You've got your high school matric, and I've taken courses in Organizational behavior with a focus on team- building, along with data-base programming similar to inputting the FMC data. I'm able to show via a Pwerpoint show how I was able to facilite training improvements in my last company, while uniting all of our disparate groups ( Pilots, management, flight attendants, Maintenance, and counter staff:lol:) in love and harmony.
You've still got 4000.3 hours, but all you are going to be able to amplify is that yeah, you could do that stuff too but you were too busy battling them uppity co-creatures, and fighting with no-nothing management.
Education may not make you rich, but it can help you to keep from losing the opportunity to put food on the table, and maybe let you exploit those opportunities in a non-Regency sort of way.
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shitdisturber
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Man I hate having the flu, it makes me do irrational things like follow links to federal govt web sites. Hoping to poke more holes in 2b's arguments, i'm then faced with this.....
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BTW planett, well said! Having done both post secondary and military technical training I applaud your attitude; it's unfortunate you seem to be in the minority.
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BTW planett, well said! Having done both post secondary and military technical training I applaud your attitude; it's unfortunate you seem to be in the minority.
(TTT) 
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/24/sc ... rors040524
As mentioned earlier great to get an education but in the past it actually meant something a "D"octor was a Doctor, today we have so many "d"octors and we get blunders in our hospitals.
Teachers demand higher pay and the service is mediocre at best, just because our society is expanding and we're all bleeding hearts doesn't mean we should allow everyone to graduate, and get to go to Post Secondary and allow everyone to graduate there too..
The remedial class doesn't need to be small, they don't need individual teacher help, true, they'll graduate high school, apply to be doctors and graduate, and we're stuck with our 185k blunders a year.
Your stats are correct 2B, but in most cases a dumbarse without a PhD can admit he's a dumbarse, but a person with higher "education" can't comprehend they're a moron because they have a piece of magical paper. Furthermore, they'll try to defend themselves with the old excuse, oh that wasn't my field of study..
Just call me bad.2bornot2b wrote: The statistics are not skewed.... It's called stereotyping, and those who stereotype other people are just as bad.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/24/sc ... rors040524
All those "edumacated" people screwing up, hyuck..."About 185,000 patients suffer an accident in surgery or a medical oversight every year, 40 per cent of which are preventable...
They found 858 patients had suffered 1,133 injuries or complications. Of those, 15 patients were left permanently disabled and 40 died...."
Yes, it's not the fact everyone is getting an "education" left right and center, people are "graduating" but aren't really any smarter. Lets not blame society.. "Let add procedures to deal with this....""The days of blame and shame need to be replaced by a curiosity to understand why these issues happen and a willingness to put in place processes and procedures that will deal with things in our environment that are risky for our patients," said Anne McGuire, CEO of the Annapolis Health District in Nova Scotia.
As mentioned earlier great to get an education but in the past it actually meant something a "D"octor was a Doctor, today we have so many "d"octors and we get blunders in our hospitals.
Teachers demand higher pay and the service is mediocre at best, just because our society is expanding and we're all bleeding hearts doesn't mean we should allow everyone to graduate, and get to go to Post Secondary and allow everyone to graduate there too..
The remedial class doesn't need to be small, they don't need individual teacher help, true, they'll graduate high school, apply to be doctors and graduate, and we're stuck with our 185k blunders a year.
Your stats are correct 2B, but in most cases a dumbarse without a PhD can admit he's a dumbarse, but a person with higher "education" can't comprehend they're a moron because they have a piece of magical paper. Furthermore, they'll try to defend themselves with the old excuse, oh that wasn't my field of study..
Wow do you ever know how to flog a dead horse. If this is the basis of your argument why don't you listen to what everyone is telling you and admit that you're a dumbass. Seems to me that the uneducated are just as defensive as the educated regarding their stupidity... you're living proof. Now shut the hell up already!!!!cyyz wrote: Your stats are correct 2B, but in most cases a dumbarse without a PhD can admit he's a dumbarse, but a person with higher "education" can't comprehend they're a moron because they have a piece of magical paper. Furthermore, they'll try to defend themselves with the old excuse, oh that wasn't my field of study..
You did notice it stopped, I stopped no one posted since May 8th? Right?why don't you listen
I did "read"(listen)....
Hence my
(TTT)
Yes, yes I do.. =)Wow do you ever know how to flog a dead horse.
Maybe if you had posted something yesterday for me to read, I wouldn't have bothered toping this.. Maybe if our brilliant health care system wasn't sh8t I wouldn't have posted my message. But our health care system is at third world standards and brilliant Paul and McGuinty have or plan to dump more money into it. But they don't use the money wisely, it just gets "dumped" onto the problem and nothing is resolved..
*sigh*..
I did shut up.. I'm not saying one word.. =PNow shut the hell up already!!!!
