It seems like there are two distinct types of commercial pilots. College grads and people that did it their way. It also seems that most of the latter group has a hate on for college programs. I would just like to hear some your opinion on why they hate, or like, college programs.
etw
college program VS doing it yourself
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fromeasttowest
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... And the fact that you have a diploma/degree after a collage program is a big point.
Also it is a mater of the student being self-motivated, or needing a kick in the pants once and awhile. The structure of a collage program really helps some people thrive as a student.... it is all about your learning style.
But CYYZ is right it is slightly more expensive to go to collage while flying. Whether or not it is connected to your flight training.
Also it is a mater of the student being self-motivated, or needing a kick in the pants once and awhile. The structure of a collage program really helps some people thrive as a student.... it is all about your learning style.
But CYYZ is right it is slightly more expensive to go to collage while flying. Whether or not it is connected to your flight training.
Pain Heals...
Chicks Dig Scars...
But Glory Lives Forever
Chicks Dig Scars...
But Glory Lives Forever
I had this dilemma a little while ago, and decided to take the best of both worlds
ie: take all the ratings at once through an ICPC program (NOT a diploma program, the ICPC type courses just gives you all the ratings and no 'diploma' courses are included)
- The cost of the ICPC program is about 40,000, which is comparable to the cost of getting all the ratings anyway when doing it 'yourself' (35,000 - 40,000) and id be willing to pay a bit more for a structured program, because thats how i learn
then later on in life, get a degree in something else
And yes kenny G., I do live forever
ie: take all the ratings at once through an ICPC program (NOT a diploma program, the ICPC type courses just gives you all the ratings and no 'diploma' courses are included)
- The cost of the ICPC program is about 40,000, which is comparable to the cost of getting all the ratings anyway when doing it 'yourself' (35,000 - 40,000) and id be willing to pay a bit more for a structured program, because thats how i learn
then later on in life, get a degree in something else
And yes kenny G., I do live forever
I'd say ideally, if I could do it again and afford it, I'd do a university degree that would give a suitable backup job and do flight training during the summers. Financially, that might be tricky to pull off.
I did the aviation college route. Here's my opinion:
Pros:
a more comprehensive ground school
it's full time and structured
flight training was good
Cons:
It takes 3 YEARS!
Too many dumb filler classes.
Attitude. And this may be specific to the college I went to. I've never been treated so poorly as a customer somewhere. They always seemed to be blaming students for their short comings. When we were way behind in the flying schedule, which was always, they blamed the students for taking too much time off... not admitting they didn't have enough airplanes (or accepted too many students). Even individual attitudes of the instructors was shocking, in some cases. I think some of them looked in the mirror and saw god. There were also down-to-earth instructors. Anyway, I could go on forever with examples of the attitude problem, but that aspect alone put a real negative spin on the college aviation experience. The problem was, you spend 1.5 years of 3 before you really get into it, making it too late to leave.
I also have to question how useful the diploma is.
Comparing price, if you did your CPL stuff right out of high school and lived with your parents, it'd be of similar cost to moving away to aviation college.
So I guess there were things that I really liked and really disliked about the college. In the end, I'm voting do-it-yourself.
I also agree with CYYZ, that in the grand scheme.. it really doesn't matter.
I did the aviation college route. Here's my opinion:
Pros:
a more comprehensive ground school
it's full time and structured
flight training was good
Cons:
It takes 3 YEARS!
Too many dumb filler classes.
Attitude. And this may be specific to the college I went to. I've never been treated so poorly as a customer somewhere. They always seemed to be blaming students for their short comings. When we were way behind in the flying schedule, which was always, they blamed the students for taking too much time off... not admitting they didn't have enough airplanes (or accepted too many students). Even individual attitudes of the instructors was shocking, in some cases. I think some of them looked in the mirror and saw god. There were also down-to-earth instructors. Anyway, I could go on forever with examples of the attitude problem, but that aspect alone put a real negative spin on the college aviation experience. The problem was, you spend 1.5 years of 3 before you really get into it, making it too late to leave.
I also have to question how useful the diploma is.
Comparing price, if you did your CPL stuff right out of high school and lived with your parents, it'd be of similar cost to moving away to aviation college.
So I guess there were things that I really liked and really disliked about the college. In the end, I'm voting do-it-yourself.
I also agree with CYYZ, that in the grand scheme.. it really doesn't matter.
I was going to go the college route.. was accepted to Confederation College in Thunder Bay. I thought about it pretty good, and heres how I decided not to go. the question you want to ask yourself is: "Do I want to train for my First job or my Last job?" My ultimate goal is so far, and has aleways seemed to be, to stick to the smaller ops/ bush flying type of job. For myself I'm in good placement up north where this type of flying is the way.
If I went to Confed, like I almost did, I would have came out with an Aviation Buisness degree, CPL, floats and I think ski or tail dragger endorsements. Staying home, and taking the training semi-leisurely, I figured I could end up with these endorsements in less time, and even though Confed is subsidised, cheaper due to local training to save travel and living costs beck east.
I've lately stepped things up a bitand came here to Professional Flight Centre (Pro-IFR), and should be doing my CPL ride in a week or two, and starting my multi-ifr immediatly after (already done the IFR sim work), and should hopefully have the hours needed to get my CPL issued to me.
I looked at it, and for my First job, local training (non-diploma/cert) was the way for me to go. Hope this helps..
FY
If I went to Confed, like I almost did, I would have came out with an Aviation Buisness degree, CPL, floats and I think ski or tail dragger endorsements. Staying home, and taking the training semi-leisurely, I figured I could end up with these endorsements in less time, and even though Confed is subsidised, cheaper due to local training to save travel and living costs beck east.
I've lately stepped things up a bitand came here to Professional Flight Centre (Pro-IFR), and should be doing my CPL ride in a week or two, and starting my multi-ifr immediatly after (already done the IFR sim work), and should hopefully have the hours needed to get my CPL issued to me.
I looked at it, and for my First job, local training (non-diploma/cert) was the way for me to go. Hope this helps..
FY
The best way to do it would be flight training on your own while going to university taking unrelated classes. That way you have the degree should the airlines require it, and you have something to fall back on should you lose your medical or whatever.
The bad news is time flies. The good news is you’re a pilot.
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av8tor_assrope
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forget about the whole college program thing. big red, little red, cathay..whatever you guys call them.....know aviaition college programs have WAY WAY WAY to few women and not enough booze. i think a local mom and pop flight school and a nice big university like western would be a much better fit.
cheers
cheers
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
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Cat Driver
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canpilot
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I am currently doing the Univeristy/ flight school thing at Pro VFR. At times It can be quite difficult to work 3 jobs, attending university AND flight training. So far,I have come close to flight testing 3 times all of which I was unable due ot weather, exams, getting burned out from mid-terms and a flight test AND work at the same time.
If you are going to do this work during the summer part time and FLY. However,this being said this route offers a good taste in time management, decision making and perserverance.
I also managed to score some volunteer flying "jobs" and am building PIC like mad with cadets/CASARA/floats. In the end I will come out with a commercial MIFR/100 Floats (eventually ) and about 500TT most of which will be PIC. Although I am at Kwantlen college right now I will be abe to transfer into UBC/SFU and get UNIVERSITY DEGREE,NOT diploma. Similarly like others have said I had the scare of losing my medical completely, highlighting the need for some form of non-aviation degree.WHEW Long post.
Basically, it's no cakewalk (like everything else in aviation) be prepared to work hard and fail (not literally just put things on hold on occasion) and come back, dust yourself and try and get it done. Would I do it again? YES!
Sorry for the long post.I hope it helps.
If you are going to do this work during the summer part time and FLY. However,this being said this route offers a good taste in time management, decision making and perserverance.
I also managed to score some volunteer flying "jobs" and am building PIC like mad with cadets/CASARA/floats. In the end I will come out with a commercial MIFR/100 Floats (eventually ) and about 500TT most of which will be PIC. Although I am at Kwantlen college right now I will be abe to transfer into UBC/SFU and get UNIVERSITY DEGREE,NOT diploma. Similarly like others have said I had the scare of losing my medical completely, highlighting the need for some form of non-aviation degree.WHEW Long post.
Basically, it's no cakewalk (like everything else in aviation) be prepared to work hard and fail (not literally just put things on hold on occasion) and come back, dust yourself and try and get it done. Would I do it again? YES!
Sorry for the long post.I hope it helps.
Hi Can Pilot, what are you studying at University? 1st year? I find it difficult to manage both flying and school...and I don't even work, but I would like to start working this fall. How many courses do you take per semester?? I find it a bit hard, because I don't have a car, and public transportation isn't that great down at Boundary Bay.
Hey Canpilot + Jude, good posts from someone in a similar situation to me. I've found it impossible to work, do flight training, and go to school simultaneously. What's worked best for me is working part-time all year, and doing flight training in spurts in the summer. I don't like doing flight training during university because without a car, ZBB is hard to get to, and shit wx combined with school pressures make it difficult to really commit yourself and get something learned without wasting lots of time/$$$ re-learning half the things you learned 2 weeks ago because you haven't had time to go flying since then. I did my PPL in one summer, and my night+float ratings the next. This summer I hope to just log a bunch of hours and start working on my commercial, maybe pick up a taildragger conversion.
Even with the above, I've been lucky in that my parents have helped me out with financing the university route. That means that everything I earn during the year I can pour into flight training during the summer. My parents won't drop a dime for flight training, so that's all me. If you can get an aviation-related job that pays more than $8/hr, that's even better.
The biggest downside to this route that I see is that when I graduate (from both flight school + uni), I'll have exclusively summer fair-weather flying-time. I'm conscious of this though, and I figure that a dedicated effort to fill in this hole in my experience wouldn't take too long.
Even with the above, I've been lucky in that my parents have helped me out with financing the university route. That means that everything I earn during the year I can pour into flight training during the summer. My parents won't drop a dime for flight training, so that's all me. If you can get an aviation-related job that pays more than $8/hr, that's even better.
The biggest downside to this route that I see is that when I graduate (from both flight school + uni), I'll have exclusively summer fair-weather flying-time. I'm conscious of this though, and I figure that a dedicated effort to fill in this hole in my experience wouldn't take too long.
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av8tor_assrope
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ahh there's always someone who has to play the role equivalent to a cock block. clunk: i’ve been told i’m a couple bricks shy of a load but i was able to somehow dig through the bullshit buried in your post.
Fromeasttowest: forget everything i said. go be an aviation machine buddy!!!! forget the parties, the booze who needs it when there’s skim milk….forget getting laid…..there’s always the airport managers daughter with buck teeth and danish thighs to look at. go do nothing but study, work hard, backstab, slog away and do anything you can to get into something bigger and faster.
you’ll make a great dork...(cough cough) dorkpilot....ooops i mean pilot someday. and don’t forget to purchase those ray bans and boeing stickers to go along with your jazzy flight bag.
p.s. catdriver: your so old you were the bartender at the Last Supper and your birth certificate is in roman numerals.
cheers
Fromeasttowest: forget everything i said. go be an aviation machine buddy!!!! forget the parties, the booze who needs it when there’s skim milk….forget getting laid…..there’s always the airport managers daughter with buck teeth and danish thighs to look at. go do nothing but study, work hard, backstab, slog away and do anything you can to get into something bigger and faster.
you’ll make a great dork...(cough cough) dorkpilot....ooops i mean pilot someday. and don’t forget to purchase those ray bans and boeing stickers to go along with your jazzy flight bag.
p.s. catdriver: your so old you were the bartender at the Last Supper and your birth certificate is in roman numerals.
cheers
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
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Cat Driver
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" p.s. catdriver: your so old you were the bartender at the Last Supper and your birth certificate is in roman numerals. "
And it is people in aviation at my level that will make sure that someone with your attitude never gets to fly for pay.
And it is people in aviation at my level that will make sure that someone with your attitude never gets to fly for pay.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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AntiNakedMan
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Well I agree assrope may not be taking this thread seriously, I had to smile at that. Now I know what to tell my boss when he gets cranky.av8tor_assrope wrote:p.s. catdriver: your so old you were the bartender at the Last Supper and your birth certificate is in roman numerals.
I'm one of the non college Commercial Pilot types. And I am a huge believer that when you do your training, you should do it all at once.... Save the money to afford to take a month off from life, and do your PPL in one shot, work for a winter while flying once a week to build PIC time, this might take you 2 years and in the meantime you can also put two years into university classes. Then take part of the summer and do your CPL, as in all the dual required.
This worked best for me.... I'll be convocating a BA this spring, and am attending Law School next fall, during the summers I fly in N. Manitoba. A medical is an easy thing to lose, I think it's imperative to have a back up career. At the same time, if Law School is not for me I can take a year or two off and fly while I figure out where my life is going.
Anti
"It's not the size of the hammer, it's how you nail" - Kanga
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av8tor_assrope
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I surrender. I had some witty comments to slap back on this thread but I’m going to be the bigger man and back out. There’s no reason avcanadians should have to read the 3 of us bullshitting each other back and forth. If you have anything else to say pm me.
cheers
cheers
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
I went the college route 26 years ago. I have never regretted it.
It's true that there are lots of BS courses that you will never use but that's true of any post secondary education.
The thing that I feel was most beneficial in my case was the camraderie that developed among the class. It was great to be in an environment where we were all so interested in the same thing and working towards the same goal. The relationships I developed helped me get my first job (the biggie) and have helped me over the years in different ways. It would be hard for me to overstate how good those college years were.
The training was excellent. Mostly ex military instructors (thanks Bernie , Bill , Dick) and they demanded a high standard. Less than 50% made it through but you sure felt good when you did.
I can't honestly say whether the college diploma ever did me any good when it came to employment but it sure didn't hurt. I have heard many say get that degree as a backup but I personally believe that it is a waste of time/money for most pilots because they will only be miserable doing anything else. Put every ounce of effort into doing what you love and it will most likely pay off.
Good luck.
It's true that there are lots of BS courses that you will never use but that's true of any post secondary education.
The thing that I feel was most beneficial in my case was the camraderie that developed among the class. It was great to be in an environment where we were all so interested in the same thing and working towards the same goal. The relationships I developed helped me get my first job (the biggie) and have helped me over the years in different ways. It would be hard for me to overstate how good those college years were.
The training was excellent. Mostly ex military instructors (thanks Bernie , Bill , Dick) and they demanded a high standard. Less than 50% made it through but you sure felt good when you did.
I can't honestly say whether the college diploma ever did me any good when it came to employment but it sure didn't hurt. I have heard many say get that degree as a backup but I personally believe that it is a waste of time/money for most pilots because they will only be miserable doing anything else. Put every ounce of effort into doing what you love and it will most likely pay off.
Good luck.
Hi Lommer
How many courses do you take per semester in University?....
Sometimes it gets confusing whether you should spend so much time in flight training...since the atmosphere on this forums says its really hard to find the first job...and I'm not really the kind of person that is very good at meeting new people....so this industry might be hard for me. Where do you work?...does working part-time during fall and winter allow you to save enough to fly all summer?
How many courses do you take per semester in University?....
Sometimes it gets confusing whether you should spend so much time in flight training...since the atmosphere on this forums says its really hard to find the first job...and I'm not really the kind of person that is very good at meeting new people....so this industry might be hard for me. Where do you work?...does working part-time during fall and winter allow you to save enough to fly all summer?
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mellow_pilot
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Well said.ivanhoe wrote:I went the college route 26 years ago. I have never regretted it.
It's true that there are lots of BS courses that you will never use but that's true of any post secondary education.
The thing that I feel was most beneficial in my case was the camraderie that developed among the class. It was great to be in an environment where we were all so interested in the same thing and working towards the same goal. The relationships I developed helped me get my first job (the biggie) and have helped me over the years in different ways. It would be hard for me to overstate how good those college years were.
The training was excellent. Mostly ex military instructors (thanks Bernie , Bill , Dick) and they demanded a high standard. Less than 50% made it through but you sure felt good when you did.
I can't honestly say whether the college diploma ever did me any good when it came to employment but it sure didn't hurt. I have heard many say get that degree as a backup but I personally believe that it is a waste of time/money for most pilots because they will only be miserable doing anything else. Put every ounce of effort into doing what you love and it will most likely pay off.
Good luck.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
Jude, I take a full load (between 4-7 courses each semester). Depending on the courses and how many I have, I manage to work 1-4 shifts per week. In this summer I work as much as I can, usually 4-6 shifts each week. I managed to snag a job out at YVR, and am loving it out there (its a real eye-opener working in that environment, I was surprised at how completely and utterly different it was from ZZB). As for finding a flying job, I'm not the best to ask because I don't even have my CPL yet, let alone my first job. As for $$$, I don't make enough that I can afford to be haphazard with my flight training, but if you're careful with your flying and serious about learning, its easy to fly all summer and only run out of money just after september rolls around.
I'm going back to work full time and starting to fly again at the beginning of may (after exams + a short break), if you're in town then PM me and maybe we can share rides out to ZBB...
I'm going back to work full time and starting to fly again at the beginning of may (after exams + a short break), if you're in town then PM me and maybe we can share rides out to ZBB...
College Vs. DIY
I vote DIY unless, as was pointed out before, you need the push to learn instead of being self motivated.
Of the course I would say DIY because thats what I did. In my case waiting for a program to start would have slowed me down. As it turned out, by doing it myself I got my Class III by the time I would have graduated if I had schooled it instead. Way too much filler in some courses and not enough flying. Alot of the material is locally developed so diploma courses might not count toward a degree down the road. That said many schools have agreements in place to prevent that. Do your research carefully if you might want to use the diploma to get a degree later. Real university courses might be a better bet.
People advising university as a backup in case you lose your medical are smart. What good is your aviation-centric education if you can't fly? Uni isn't the only backup available though. What does a BFA get you for work these days right out of school- burger flipper? I went to a year of uni and thought, this is bullshit busy work with no real purpose, dropped out and went and got a trade. In the old days, trades were king, now everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer. However, a trade can get you to the money far quicker. Eight months of school and into an apprenticeship three after that in my case. Serve a remaining three years indentured with yearly schooling (EI covered) and you are done in alot of trades AND you get paid a good wage the whole time! In the same time it would have taken to get a bachelors and have no immediate job prospects, I was a journeyman and pulling down over 50K a year. To boot I had already saved almost 10K when I decided to start flying. If you did both concurrently you would have a CPL, ready to fly, and owe little to nothing to anyone for it in under 4 years. I realise this is double the timeframe of a diploma program but look at the benefits- experience and earning power in something unrelated to flying should you lose the medical and money in the bank and your licenses.
This was the route I took so I'm biased, but it is worth considering. Maybe I'm just a proletariat at heart but I think trades training trumps University any day. Trades pay while you learn- this can make your goal of being a pilot possible if you don't come from money. It was the only way I could do it as my parents couldn't have payed for my training. Best of all- no student loans to service as your living on KD working your first flying job Now might be the time as skilled trades are in increasing in demand. You can make good money for 'blue collar' work these days. I know a machinist and electricians that make over 100K a year. Certainly worth considering....
Good luck!
Of the course I would say DIY because thats what I did. In my case waiting for a program to start would have slowed me down. As it turned out, by doing it myself I got my Class III by the time I would have graduated if I had schooled it instead. Way too much filler in some courses and not enough flying. Alot of the material is locally developed so diploma courses might not count toward a degree down the road. That said many schools have agreements in place to prevent that. Do your research carefully if you might want to use the diploma to get a degree later. Real university courses might be a better bet.
People advising university as a backup in case you lose your medical are smart. What good is your aviation-centric education if you can't fly? Uni isn't the only backup available though. What does a BFA get you for work these days right out of school- burger flipper? I went to a year of uni and thought, this is bullshit busy work with no real purpose, dropped out and went and got a trade. In the old days, trades were king, now everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer. However, a trade can get you to the money far quicker. Eight months of school and into an apprenticeship three after that in my case. Serve a remaining three years indentured with yearly schooling (EI covered) and you are done in alot of trades AND you get paid a good wage the whole time! In the same time it would have taken to get a bachelors and have no immediate job prospects, I was a journeyman and pulling down over 50K a year. To boot I had already saved almost 10K when I decided to start flying. If you did both concurrently you would have a CPL, ready to fly, and owe little to nothing to anyone for it in under 4 years. I realise this is double the timeframe of a diploma program but look at the benefits- experience and earning power in something unrelated to flying should you lose the medical and money in the bank and your licenses.
This was the route I took so I'm biased, but it is worth considering. Maybe I'm just a proletariat at heart but I think trades training trumps University any day. Trades pay while you learn- this can make your goal of being a pilot possible if you don't come from money. It was the only way I could do it as my parents couldn't have payed for my training. Best of all- no student loans to service as your living on KD working your first flying job
Now might be the time as skilled trades are in increasing in demand. You can make good money for 'blue collar' work these days. I know a machinist and electricians that make over 100K a year. Certainly worth considering....Good luck!
