Secrets to Dealing with G-Force in Spirals and Spins?

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:51 pm

AntiNakedMan wrote:
No one has ever actually shown me how to do a spiral dive.... I call them sloppy spins in the 172.

I got 3 demonstrations on Sunday, and the lesson starts tomorrow afternoon. Steep turn, keep going, ooops. I think I've already got the recovery memorized: power off, level the wings, full throttle, carb heat off, pull up to recover altitude. These don't look so bad as I thought, actually. We'll see about spins.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:27 pm

TorontoGuy wrote: I got 3 demonstrations on Sunday, and the lesson starts tomorrow afternoon. Steep turn, keep going, ooops. I think I've already got the recovery memorized: power off, level the wings, full throttle, carb heat off, pull up to recover altitude. These don't look so bad as I thought, actually. We'll see about spins.

Wouldn't you want to pull to recovery attitude b4 adding power? (haven't flown a cessna in a while, but...) If you increase throttle before establishing a climb attitude are you not increasing speed in the dive... toward the ground... which may be approaching rapidly already...

Is it not more prudent to bleed energy in establishing a climb attitude, once airspeed has decreased to an acceptable level, throttle up and contiune climb to safe alt? Easier on the airframe and body, no?

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:12 pm

mellow_pilot wrote:
TorontoGuy wrote: I got 3 demonstrations on Sunday, and the lesson starts tomorrow afternoon. Steep turn, keep going, ooops. I think I've already got the recovery memorized: power off, level the wings, full throttle, carb heat off, pull up to recover altitude. These don't look so bad as I thought, actually. We'll see about spins.
Wouldn't you want to pull to recovery attitude b4 adding power? (haven't flown a cessna in a while, but...) If you increase throttle before establishing a climb attitude are you not increasing speed in the dive... toward the ground... which may be approaching rapidly already...

Is it not more prudent to bleed energy in establishing a climb attitude, once airspeed has decreased to an acceptable level, throttle up and contiune climb to safe alt? Easier on the airframe and body, no?

I could have it wrong. Haven't actually memorized it yet. Just going from what I thought I recalled. But I could be right, considering the way you get out of a stall:nose down to break the stall, power full, then (or simultaneously) pull up to climb.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:33 pm

TorontoGuy wrote:I got 3 demonstrations on Sunday, and the lesson starts tomorrow afternoon. Steep turn, keep going, ooops. I think I've already got the recovery memorized: power off, level the wings, full throttle, carb heat off, pull up to recover altitude. These don't look so bad as I thought, actually. We'll see about spins.

1- PWR idle
2- Level wings (aileron + rudder)
3- Ease out of dive (I like to go to nose up attitdue)
4- Full Power

1 & 2 can be done simultaneously. Clearly differentiate between 2 & 3.

By now you're A/S is (most likely) just reaching the yellow arc, therefore allowing you to transition into the nose up attitude. Now you add power an can level off once you've reached a safe alititude.

TorontoGuy wrote:I'll say! If I recall what my instructor told me, they don't even want me doing spirals solo.

Flight Test Exercises - Ex. 14 - Spiral

Aim

To determine the candidate's ability to recognize a spiral dive and to effect a smooth, safe recovery to straight and level flight.

Description

The examiner will initiate this manoeuvre from an over-banked steep turn or an incorrect spin entry. Control will be given to the candidate, when the spiral is established. On assuming control, the candidate will be expected to commence recovery immediately.

Recovery will be completed at a height specified by the manufacturer, or no less then 2,000 feet above ground, whichever is greater.

Performance Criteria

Assessment will be based on the candidate’s ability to:

1. recover promptly and smoothly using control applications in the proper sequence; and

2. return smoothly to straight and level flight without excessive loss of altitude and without exceeding any operating limitation of the aeroplane.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:47 pm

At my school, the student is expected to be able to enter, fly, and recover from a spin all on their own before going solo. You're not supposed to practice spins when you are solo, but they want to make sure you know what you're doing in case you accidentaly enter one during upper air work when you're flying by yourself. Spiral dives are entered by the instructer, and recovered by the student, but just for a lark one time the CFI had me practice a descent-through-cloud, which is very similar to a spiral dive. Btw, for every recovery I've heard of you exit the dive before adding power, as the extra power only pulls you towards the ground and you often have plenty of airspeed at that point.

-TCGuy, I dunno about your school, but at my school they definately treated spiral dives as more dangerous than spins. The reasoning was that a spin is easy to manage as long as you know the steps and can recognize the spin for what it is. OTOH, it's easy to get over your manuevering speed in a spiral dive if you're not quick and your descent can be much faster than the descent of a spin.

-Oh, and rotateandfly, by "1 G" I meant "1 G over and above normal gravity". Technically, is that referred to as 1G or 2Gs in the aerobatics world?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:01 pm

I worry about set proceedures that do not take into consideration all the factors that may be involved.

When you teach this method:

" 3- Ease out of dive (I like to go to nose up attitdue)
4- Full Power "

What do you teach to prevent an engine over speed, a reasonably developed spiral dive will result in rapidly increasing airspeed so what precautions do you teach to prevent engine over speed when you go to full power?

Cat

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:33 pm

Cat Driver wrote: What do you teach to prevent an engine over speed, a reasonably developed spiral dive will result in rapidly increasing airspeed so what precautions do you teach to prevent engine over speed when you go to full power?

Cat

Interesting you should ask. I'd had it in my mind to ask my instructor tomorrow what happens if you get too damn close to Vno or Vne; or rather, how to avoid it, considering this is just practice.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:59 pm

You prevent airspeed building beyond safe speed by recovering from the spiral dive before airspeed becomes a concern...it is engine over RPM that I was addressing, as the bug smashers generally have fixed pitch props....

...an engine over speed can be very costly.

Cat

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:29 pm

Cat Driver wrote:I worry about set proceedures that do not take into consideration all the factors that may be involved.

When you teach this method:

" 3- Ease out of dive (I like to go to nose up attitdue)
4- Full Power "

What do you teach to prevent an engine over speed, a reasonably developed spiral dive will result in rapidly increasing airspeed so what precautions do you teach to prevent engine over speed when you go to full power?

Cat

No way could I go into every possible scenario and give an appropriate recovery method. What I gave was a general idea of the way that I recover from a spiral dive that is usually encountered in the flight training environment.

To prevent over-speeding it, don't allow the spiral to develop

To answer you a bit more directly, you better catch that runaway prop cos it'll go shooting through the red line. If not, like you said, the engine may self-destruct, or the props might depart the hub due to the increased centrifugal force. If you catch it, close the throttle and drop that airspeed, i.e. nose up. At this point, I'd go and land.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:35 pm

" To prevent over-speeding it, don't allow the spiral to develop "

AAAhh but how can you teach a spiral without letting one develope?

To prevent an engine over speed all you need to do is do not apply full power unless there is some real need for it...and then only after the air speed has decayed back to a safe speed to add power...

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:42 pm

In most airplanes found in FTU's around the country, (172, 152, etc), when teaching spiral dives in the ab initio stages, there should be no need to allow the spiral to gain too much A/S.

Transitioning from 120 KIAS to a nose up attitude (i.e. 80 KIAS) and applying full power then will not cause the engine to overspeed.

The reason to teach the full power to ab initio is to get them to recover without having to think too much about how much power? full, cruise, partial? remember, these are brand new pilots. Once they are done the training, I don't think many will go practice these things, so if encountered, have them follow the drill. Later on, experience (PDM) and type of A/C they are flying, they can tune and adjust the recovery method to suit them best.

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:58 pm

The way I was taught how to recover from spirals is the same way I recover from unusual attitudes under the hood (w/regard to throttle use).

If the airspeed is high, reduce throttle, bring aircraft back to level. As the altimiter slows down, begin adding throttle to keep it at a set altitude. This has always been the simplest for me and if you're doing a PPL or CPL give it a try next time you're under the hood.

Anti

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:50 am

SCM,

Nothing wrong doing solo spins. The training requirement shave change that's all. In the day student had to demonstrate their ability to enter and exit a spin (and do it solo), now they only have to demonstrate their ability to recover from one.

Spirals were different in the sense the student only had to demonstrate his /hers ability to recover.

A word of caution; Spins and Spirals CAN be considered by TC as an Aerobatic manoeuver. If you choose to impress your girlfriend by spinning her around, remember the requirements to do Aerobatic with passengers listed in CAR 602.28

D

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:04 pm

When i was doing my PPL i remember actually being sent out to the practise area by my instrructor and being told to go do spins for an hour.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:14 pm

wha happen wrote:When i was doing my PPL i remember actually being sent out to the practise area by my instrructor and being told to go do spins for an hour.

How long ago? It's strictly forbidden at my FTU.

scm · Post by **scm** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:43 pm

TorontoGuy wrote:
wha happen wrote:When i was doing my PPL i remember actually being sent out to the practise area by my instrructor and being told to go do spins for an hour.
How long ago? It's strictly forbidden at my FTU.

Two days ago I went out and did spins solo. I don't recall doing them solo for my PPL.

We're also required to enter a spin and recover for the CPL ride.

Spins and stalls however are prohibited when carrying a front seat passenger. (company policy)

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:55 pm

scm wrote:
TorontoGuy wrote:
wha happen wrote:When i was doing my PPL i remember actually being sent out to the practise area by my instrructor and being told to go do spins for an hour.
How long ago? It's strictly forbidden at my FTU.
Two days ago I went out and did spins solo. I don't recall doing them solo for my PPL.

We're also required to enter a spin and recover for the CPL ride.

Spins and stalls however are prohibited when carrying a front seat passenger. (company policy)

Ah! Ok. I'm doing my PPL. In solo flight, practice of stalls is expected. Not spirals or spins. And I asked my instructor, "OK, how do you know a student will actually go out and practise stalls solo?" His reply: "Of course, we do not. It's your dollar; do what you want. When it comes time for the exam, it'll show."

OW · Post by OW » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:01 pm

"It's your dime, do what you want!"

When you are on a training flight you are (on the honor system) required to do only what you have been instructed (and approved) to do , by your instructor. It is irresponsible and foolish for any instructor to tell you to do what you want.

What your instructor probably meant is that you need to practice these exercises and if you don't you will not become proficient enough to pass your flight test. The Instructor has to recommend you for the test and I would hope will pre-test you to determine if you have sufficient skill to perform.

Good Luck!

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:03 pm

OW wrote:"It's your dime, do what you want!"

When you are on a training flight you are (on the honor system) required to do only what you have been instructed (and approved) to do , by your instructor. It is irresponsible and foolish for any instructor to tell you to do what you want.

What your instructor probably meant is that you need to practice these exercises and if you don't you will not become proficient enough to pass your flight test. The Instructor has to recommend you for the test and I would hope will pre-test you to determine if you have sufficient skill to perform.

Good Luck!

Yes, that's exactly what he meant.

2R · Post by 2R » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:51 pm

If we told you it would not be a secret would IT ????
So how about some non secret declassified ways of dealing with G's.
Take up road running the pounding will strenghten your paracardiam (the heart sack) wear some support or your nutsack will hit your knees after a while, and ladies if you run get support too or you may cause road accidents and end up with rash on the nips.
Simple exercise's like touching your toes rapidly for a minute three times a day will build up resistence and tolerance in the vestibulars.
One Secret Method of increasing G tolerance is often done with barstools that rotate ,Before imbibement commences place head on shoulder and have an accompliace spin the barstool for about a minute.Now try and walk a straight line (Instrument pilots can do this quite easily )Commence the imbibement .Repeat process until you fall over most non-rated instrument pilots can get up to about four beers before falling over.I once saw an aviator drink twelve beers and still walk a straight line.After the fourth shot of cheap and nasty tequila and rapid spinning of the barstool he finally succombed to the Simulated G forces.Warning this training method can be dangerous and should not be attempted without adult supervision.

cone · Post by **cone** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:31 am

First of all you're all a bunch of HOMOs if you're having trouble with G in a light aircraft. First of all there are no G forces in a spin, you're essentially falling so there would be less than one G if anything. If you're in a spiral dive and are worried about G-LOCing then I would be more worried about the wings on your Cessna falling off.

If you're honestly worried about greying out then just tense all the muscles in your legs, butt and abs and that should do it. There's more to a proper anti-G strain but you really won't need it. Ease off the G a little if you need, but Goler is correct if you ease to one G or less then put it back on you're just making matters worse. And your tolerance will go up exponentially, for example in a jet your turns in the traffic pattern are all 3g.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:01 am

you're all a bunch of HOMOs if you're having trouble with G in a light aircraft

Sean Tucker routinely pulls +12G's in his "light aircraft", without a G suit I might add.

What are you flying that pulls more G than that? Or, does that make you the HOMO?

How many negative G do you push, btw?

cone · Post by **cone** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:25 am

Anybody who likes to brag about how much G they can take is a homo. Anyone who pulls a lot of G regularly knows that it is not fun, if you could fight someone with pulling G all the better. Also negative G is for homos and serves no real purpose.

By the way check my reply to your post re Fighter Pilot movie

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:55 am

Sure looks like CONE is the HOMO

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:08 pm

What exactly is the subject here?

What do homos have to do with G loads, or does he mean "guy" as in being loaded with Guys in a bath house?

Cat