External Loads???

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Wed May 26, 2004 2:11 pm

Does anyone know of any external load courses or seminars being held in Ontario this summer? Prices?

I heard about COPA doing something along these lines last summer, and I thought it might be helpful.

Thanks!

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Thu May 27, 2004 4:54 am

I am wondering what is the deal with external loads anyhow?

Does an operator require approval or are there certain rules that dictate what is acceptable as an external load? Or can a floatplane pilot arbitrarily strap a fridge on the left side, and some plywood sheets on the right?

185_guy · Post by **185_guy** » Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 pm

I think it has to be in the company's ops manual, but how it gets there is beyond me. I never heard tell of a external load seminar, but it sounds like a good idea, as long as guys dont try tying a 14ft boat to a 172 or something!!
If you want to see external loads in action, go see an operator with a Norseman, or Otter. They will fly anything tied on the side!

north of 50 · Post by **north of 50** » Thu May 27, 2004 7:22 pm

first off, the a/c HAS to have an STC to be able to carry an external load(legally). secondly the pilot must secure the load, conduct the test flight (without pax) and "prove" the load, all must be entered into journey log. then the pilot may carry pax, or resume the flight(s).

As far as TC is concerned, they would rather not see anyone be allowed to carry external loads. this was told to me by several inspectors. TC knows that their hands are bound by the STC that they issued the a/c long ago. they want nothing to do with regulating the practice and it is the responsibility of the operator to train their staff on the proper procedures. the have and want nothing to do with traing guidelines at all. i find this unfortunate as many of the TC inspectors come from, and have rich bushflying backgrounds and have a wealth of knowledge in the area but their hands are tied by the liability issues etc., etc.

there are many methods rules of thumb, etc. for example. when carrying an external load, reduce your internal load by 2x the weight of your external load. eg.
400lb arctic cat (bearcat), internal load reduced by 800lbs.

in a nutshell it is up to the operator and PIC to "prove the load",document it and away you go.

if your a/c STC says you must use the canoe/boat-rack as supplied by manufacturer or other, well, you must use it as per STC.

yes many have, myself included, carried a 14' canoe on the side of a 180 or 185 but it is not legal.

anyhow when dealing with external loads, seek advice from an experienced driver and take your time, check and re-check security. if that load comes loose, or worse lets go....

nobody in their right mind will offer a "recognized course or seminar" due libality issues unfortunately.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu May 27, 2004 9:08 pm

Reading all this B.S. about flying in the bush makes me deleriously happy that I was fortunate enough to have lived in an era when common sense and doing things that were proven to be normal operations was how we flew.

Jeeses H. chr.st what kind of simpletons are out there today flying with all this stunningly stupid crap that comes out of TC.

We have flown external cargo of every conceivable kind on Cessna 180's to Beech 18's on floats for decades.

It isn't rocket science, all you need is to understand how to tie proper knots in ropes or how to tighten straps in a safe manner to hold the load on.

By the way, where are all these TC types that know so much about bush flying? I haven't run into many lately. They can't be the ones who are demanding all this B.S.

Once again I kneel beside my bed every night and thank what ever God there is up there that I no longer have to put up with the blinding stupidity that aviation has spiralled downwards into, resulting in this mess you guys are forced to live with.

Jeeses I can't believe this.............a fu.kin course on how to tie external loads on a float plane.......next thing you will need a TC course on how to tie your shoes so you don't trip on the laces and fall in the f.ckin water.

Cat

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Fri May 28, 2004 12:08 am

Thanks for that info, north of 50. It is an issue I have never had to deal with in my career but is rather thought provoking. Really, Transport Canada's stand doesn't surprise me given the environment of liability so prevalent today and the fact that they are charged with regulating common carriage of the public.

In a way, it is an exception to the very scientific standards we see elsewhere. If you want to install an new interior, avionics, vortex generators or anything else on an aircraft, it has to go through rigerous testing and certification standards. Yet strapping an external load on an aircraft must alter the flight charaterisics in significant ways-- and, since they probably didn't stick a scale model of a DHC-2 with a Maytag refrigerator on the side in a windtunnel, they are somewhat unknown-- that test flight really does make the guy a test pilot!

How does insurance view the issue of external loads? Does an operator end up paying a higher premium?

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Fri May 28, 2004 4:48 am

Cat Driver wrote:Jeeses I can't believe this.............a fu.kin course on how to tie external loads on a float plane.......next thing you will need a TC course on how to tie your shoes so you don't trip on the laces and fall in the f.ckin water.

Yeah it's not hard tying knots, but I thought that some external load experience would help me stand out a bit from all of the other low timers, at least in the eyes of an operator who does it. It's mostly for the resume. Plus, it's an excuse to go flying.

I found out about the COPA thing on it last year. It was just for private guys who want to be able to carry a canoe around safely.

Mach .28 · Post by **Mach .28** » Fri May 28, 2004 8:19 am

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... AC0209.htm

Advisory Circulars

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COMMERCIAL AND BUSINESS
AVIATION ADVISORY CIRCULAR No. 0209

2002.05.31

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Carriage of Passengers and External Loads
INTRODUCTION

This Commercial and Business Aviation Advisory Circular (CBAAC) informs floatplane operators of an exemption to section 703.25 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs). This exemption will permit operators to carry passengers and an external load, without authorization in the Type Certificate or in a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC), provided that certain conditions are met.

In instances where dangerous goods are transported, the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations (TDGR) apply and shall be complied with.

This CBAAC replaces CBAAC 0152R dated 2000.05.05. This revision reflects a change to the expiry date noted on page two of the attached exemption.

REFERENCES

Section 703.25 of the CARs (Carriage of External Loads)
Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations
DISCUSSION

Section 703.25 of the CARs only authorizes carriage of external load with passengers on board when it is authorized in the Type Certificate or in a STC. After several representations from industry, Transport Canada, Civil Aviation has issued an exemption to permit floatplane operators to carry passengers and an external load, without having these authorities. The exemption contains conditions that operators shall meet and guidance material to assist them in meeting these conditions. A copy of the exemption is attached to this CBAAC.

This exemption does not exempt the operator from the TDGR requirements.

ACTION

Operators who wish to take advantage of this exemption shall satisfy all the conditions and amend the Company Operations Manual, and submit for review and approval their dangerous goods training programs accordingly.

Michel Gaudreau
Acting Director
Commercial & Business Aviation

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Commercial & Business Aviation Advisory Circulars (CBAAC) are intended to provide information and guidance regarding operational matters. A CBAAC may describe an acceptable, but not the only, means of demonstrating compliance with existing regulations. CBAACs in and of themselves do not change, create any additional, authorize changes in, or permit deviations from regulatory requirements.

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Last updated: 2004-04-13 Important Notices

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 28, 2004 8:35 am

Like I said, we have been carrying external loads safely for decades.

TC will keep forcing paper work on the industry for the simple reason that that is all they can do, being a bureacuracy they must have paper work to feed the monster.

I find it interesting to read all the hand wringing over these basic operating proceedures and the fear of what TC wants........then on another thread I read the hundreds of arguments about operators like R egency ( where there seems to be a genuine safety concern judging by the comments I read. ) so go figure.

Cat

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Fri May 28, 2004 8:45 am

First guys, no operator is going to take a green pilot and hand him an aircraft of his and tell you to load up an external load and fly off to never land with it. Believe it or not, there are such things called on the job training and it is not taught by TC. You will find most operators who operate a varied fleet won't even allow the Cessna's to carry external loads. It is left for the real aircraft like the Beavers, Otters, Norsemen, Beech 18's etc. so you probably will witness and participate in strapping on many external loads before you ever get to fly one.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever put on a resume that you are current in tieing on external loads. I would suspect that would get your resume quickly moved to pile under the Chief Pilot's desk.

I agree with Cat, this is all the industry needs is another course by TC. Christ I have an ATPL with a valid IFR and have spent the last 25 years at a 100 feet in reduced vis and I am still supposed to take annual training so I am legal to fly in reduced vis situations. This consists of flying around with some flap on and a slower speed on a nice sunny day. Boy is that productive!!! I wonder what genius came up with that one!!!

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Fri May 28, 2004 10:00 am

CLguy wrote:First guys, no operator is going to take a green pilot and hand him an aircraft of his and tell you to load up an external load and fly off to never land with it.

Oh??? No?????

C'mon guys, lighten up. Two guys ask a question, and two guys get their knickers in a twist and start their anti-government retoric (welcome to the AvCanada Forum). I recognize that you are aces and have millions of hours Total Time. You guys are doing your jobs and Transport is doing theirs.

As far as the horrible bureaucracy

, it's to be somewhat expected as part of the process. I wasn't around during the Second World War (so anything I know from that era is either from reading or war stories), but I understand that those big bombers (Super Fortresses and Lancasters) were flown pretty much by the seat of the pants (and dammit!!! it was probably fun). There were no figures or concept behind accelerate/stop, accelerate/go, climb gradients, balanced field, etc. After the war, when the Civil Aviation Authorities decided they had nothing better to do than harass good guys like Cat Driver

, they decided that there were too many accidents from big planes running off the runways, so they put their number crunchers to work (and dammit!!! started to take the fun out of flying the big planes). The result is that newer airplanes have all those figures that have at least in part been successful in increasing safety (the other aspect, of course, is the new generation of souless, bored, pilot-nerds who took the Transport Canada courses). Meanwhile, the old generation planes of course are grandfathered while they still exist, giving plenty of opportunity for old-school pilots to still get their jollies.

Well, that's what I was told during one of my bedtime stories, over to you Cat.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 28, 2004 10:23 am

What more is there to say Panama?

CLguy put it best in his last paragraph.

We have two different schools of thought here, on one side there are people like CLguy and myself who have been doing it safely for hundreds of thousands of take offs and landings in every concieavable condition on earth.

On the other side we have the " Experts " at TC who grind out thousands of pages of rules and policies enforcing their view on how to do it.

Can someone here name some TC types that are recognized as "expert" in the subject they are making all these rules for?

Then I will contact these experts to join us here and debate the subjects.

Cat

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Fri May 28, 2004 3:37 pm

Ok, the only reason I asked is because when I was choosing between 50-hour float programs, my decision was narrowed to two schools. One is here in Ontario, and it trains students in external loads, dangerous goods, and other such things. The other is in BC, and I ended up choosing it for several reasons such as cost, west coast experience (mountain time!), several good references, and the ability to start right away. I figured that I could take all of the extras that the Ontario course offers afterwards, and then some. I found a dangerous goods course (for $600....ouch), and now I'm looking for the rest of the extras.

I never insinuated that TC requires any of this. Actually, I had no idea of the legalities of external loads in Canada (thanks for posting it

). I also thought there was a lot more to the subject, since ASA's "Water Flying Concepts: an advanced text on wilderness water flying" book has an entire chapter on it, and the author's first piece of advice is to find an instructor experienced in the subject.

So I guess the book was right in stating that "there is little common knowledge" in the subject. My only question now is: Wouldnt it help to have some experience in external loads so that if i'm faced with it someday, it wouldnt be a completely new thing? It couldnt hurt, could it? Or am I just wasting my time and money? (seriously, am I?)

Thanks for the help.

north of 50 · Post by **north of 50** » Fri May 28, 2004 6:23 pm

cat driver, i don't pretend to know you, i have however spoken with you on the phone in regards to some advice and it was very helpful and i'm very grateful for.

i wasn't saying in an earlier post that TC is packed with inspectors that are very knowledgeable that write the policies/CARS etc., the guys i'm referring to are the ones going out to do base/operations inspections and audits etc.

one inspector in particular out of TBay, was a former employee of austin back in "the day"

anyhow, he is of course the exception to the rule and it puts money in his pocket and feeds his family. he's one of the few that understands and works with bush operators.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri May 28, 2004 6:41 pm

North of 50 :

There are many experienced good employees in TC, some of whom are good friends of mine.

Without exception they are dismayed at the way their leaders have driven TC.

They have two choices, keep their heads down and try and help us or stick their heads up and take the consequences of going against their bosses.

Soon there will only be the zombies left, I truly feel sorry for all you younger guys having to struggle through the industry today.

Look out for yourself and stay as far from TC as possible.

Here is a question.

List how many good things you receive from TC.

Cat

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Fri May 28, 2004 9:25 pm

Northern Skies, yes you are wasting your money. Do not spend your hard earned money, or I assume it is hard earned on a 50 hour float course. Find someone with a float plane and work a deal with him to buy a bunch on time on it. Preferably a Cub or Citabria! Something that is cheap to rent and fly the struts off it.

For sure do not spend $600 on a Dangerous Goods Course. That would be a huge waste of dollars.

I suggest you go and spend sometime hanging around a float operation, get to know some of the folks that work there and ask some questions. Judging by your posts, I get the feeling that you really have no concept of what is required or what goes on at a float base. You will probably save yourself a whole bunch of money and aggrevation if you first know what operators are looking for in a new employee!!

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat May 29, 2004 12:53 am

I agree with CLGuy on the DG course.

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Sat May 29, 2004 6:19 am

You're right, I've never been around a float operation. I'll have a bit more experience afer I go to BC this monday.
I thought that I could get a lot of "extras" to help me stand out. Now, I guess it's just the time in the logbook that counts (aside from character and work ethic) (and luck). But I do want to make every hour of my commercial something more than just circuits at YHM in a Cherokee. I really am trying to find someone close to here who rents a floatplane solo. I've had no luck so far.

Is there any particular kind of training I could do that, in your opinion, would help me stand out from the rest? Or is it just the luck of the draw? I'm planning on using every good job tip i've ever heard (a lot from this site), and I want my training to reflect that I will stop at nothing short of dying to become a successful bush pilot.

Thanks again for all of the help. I really appreciate it.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat May 29, 2004 7:31 am

The North is one of those parts of aviation where it depends widely on the operator and sometimes his interest. I've seen ads where attributes like small engine repair (no, not Lycoming), guide experience, etc were desireable. One employer who I worked for would have liked it a little more if I had a construction background or skills. I remember one where he liked people who had a bit of administrative talent, could be a good salesman, etc. One liked linguistic skills-- most customers tended to be from Germany. So there you go-- anything else you can do can only help, and not only for the job.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Sat May 29, 2004 7:24 pm

Northern Skies, a few bits of advice....

First of all - don't waste your cash on a dangerous goods course or external loads training. Both items will be covered in your company training when you get hired. If external load training is covered in a bush course, learn from it and realize that there will be much more to follow in real life. You can get some great free external loads training by working as a dock hand anywhere in northern Canada, or by befriending a company that is willing to let you hang out for a while and learn by osmosis.

Note that the advisory circular posted is just that - an ADVISORY, and it specifically refers to carrying passengers with external loads. Unless it is specifically prohibited in the particular aircraft flight manual, I don't believe there is any law preventing the carriage of external loads. The ops manual stuff refers to company training for external loads and how the company plans to deal with external loads and passengers. If you do not have that statement in the Ops manual, pax are prohibited - many companies do not know this. Its no big deal to add it in, and TC cannot refuse if you meet the standards.

As a side note - external loads in Cessnas are extremely common - mostly due to the size of the cabin. Fishing rod tubes are often best carried outside. I have carried lumber, canoes, rod tubes and even a BBQ on a Cessna float. The possibilities are endless.

External loads are no big deal when treated with extreme caution. Most companies will make sure you are comfortable with the aircraft before throwing externals at you. If in doubt, ask!!!!

Things to consider: wind, take-off distance, enroute weather, humidity, load, ambient temperature etc. Try not to stack the deck against yourself.

One really good piece of advice is to learn how to tie proper knots and assess/correct a load for slippage. You will typically learn on one item ( ie canoe), then will learn to adapt your techniques for each new load. Unless you are being trainied, always always tie your own loads/knots. You want to listen to people who are trying to help, however it is often easy to have an external load operation taken over by the help who don't know as much as they think. Sometimes even senior pilots will take over, and you might find yourself in a quandry over something that you don't feel comfortable with. You must find a way to assess information, learn, yet assert yourself when necessary (and as diplomatically as possible) to ensure the load is tied in such a way to make YOU feel comfortable.

Always always make every rope/knot count (ie don't use a hundred meaningless wraps) and make sure they are preventing shift from all directions. When the load is secure, shake the sh*t out of it to ensure security. A cautionary note - be carefull with things like birch canoes - they tend to implode if you cinch them too tight.

Finally, if you have extra money to burn and are looking to make yourself more employable, try renting an aircraft (on floats if that's the type of job you're after) and fly as many hours CROSS COUNTRY - NOT IN THE CIRCUIT!!!! as you can. You need PIC time, and you will learn lots this way. Learn how to read a map and force yourself to navigate by this method only. Go on a few long cross countries in unfamiliar terrain, and use the opportunitiy to network with companies on the way. If you are resourceful, you will often find people will take you in and/or feed you enroute. If you have a good learning disposition and good attitude, people will help you and you will learn.

Good Luck,
Snoopy

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun May 30, 2004 7:25 am

Hey Snoop :

Someday I'll tell you what happened to me with the B18 when I tied a 18 foot aluminum boat on the rack the wrong way around.

Cat

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:00 am

Cat - maybe its the early morning talking, but dont canoes have 2 pointy ends???

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:55 am

It was a "boat" not a canoe.

A boat has a pointy end and a square end.

which way should I have put it on?

Pointy end facing foward or blunt end facing foward?

And don't any of you experienced guys answer.

Cat

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:13 am

stern forward, right?

a transom would cause a hell of a lot of turbulence as a trailing edge.

did I win anything?

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Sun May 30, 2004 12:31 pm

Buy a copy of "All the knots you'll need" from Lee Valley tools. Learn them. Relax.

External Loads???

External Loads???

external loads

external loads??