IFR approaches in Class G airspace

[Clothesliner]

Are there approaches (NavCanada published or other, ie. RCAP) in uncontrolled airspace?

[Go Guns]

Plenty... For starters, Anahim Lake and 108 Mile

[Clothesliner]

That's what I thunk.

So, next question: What's the best course of action if in IMC in uncontrolled airspace, and you have a comm failure?

[chipmunk]

Pull out the Sat phone?

[frac]

That's what I thunk.

So, next question: What's the best course of action if in IMC in uncontrolled airspace, and you have a comm failure?

Are you on an IFR flight plan or are you on an IFR flight itinerary?

Are you within an area with radar coverage?

Were you in contact with FSS/ATC before the comm failure?

Do you have a cell phone, sat phone, protable VHF?

I would use the lost comm procedures and common sense.

Frac

[Clothesliner]

Are you on an IFR flight plan or are you on an IFR flight itinerary?

Are you within an area with radar coverage?

Were you in contact with FSS/ATC before the comm failure?

Do you have a cell phone, sat phone, protable VHF?

I would use the lost comm procedures and common sense.

Frac

IFR plan or itinerary shouldn't matter, because airspace is not protected since it's class G, also no radar coverage due to class G. Prior contact with FSS/ATC also wouldn't matter for same reason - assume you've been cleared out of controlled airspace, a while previously. Assume no other feasible means of communication. The lost comm procedures don't talk about failure in IMC in uncontrolled airspace.

I guess I'm asking what others would do using their common sense.

[Go Guns]

Just because it's uncontrolled, doesn't mean there's no radar coverage. You might as well squawk 7600, it won't hurt. If you can, just turn around shoot the approach at the uncontrolled airport. If that's not an option, well...

Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC): If the failure
occurs in IMC, or if the flight cannot be continued under
VMC, the pilot-in-command shall continue the flight
according to the following:
(i) Route
(A) by the route assigned in the last ATC clearance
received and acknowledged;
(B) if being radar-vectored, by the direct route
from the point of communications failure to
the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector
clearance;
(C) in the absence of an assigned route, by the route
that ATC has advised may be expected in a
further clearance; or
(D) in the absence of an assigned route or route that
ATC has advised may be expected in a further
clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan.
(ii) Altitude: At the highest of the following altitudes or
FLs for the route segment being flown:
(A) the altitude(s) or FLs assigned in the last ATC
clearance received and acknowledged;
(B) the minimum IFR altitude (see RAC 8.6.1); or
(C) the altitude or FLATC has advised may be
expected in a further clearance. (The pilot shall
commence climb to this altitude/FL at the time
or point specified by ATC to expect further
clearance/ altitude change.)

[cougr41]

Well, no matter what - if you are above cloud or in cloud - sooner or later you will have to shoot that approach. With or without some type of clearance.

Tons and tons and tonnes and tonnes of approaches in uncontrolled airspace.

There are literally 100's if not thousands that are in areas of no radar. You have a comms failure and you are not on some type of clearance - then you are on your own. Squawk all you want - no matter - no use.

Otherwise those engines will eventually get very quiet and you will come down. Common rule to remember - "We have never left one up there yet!"

You can do whatever the book says to do and you can do whatever you want to do - but - sooner or later - you are definietly going to make that approach. Unless of course you figure you can fly without fuel.

The comment about a sat phone is actually quite valid. I use Iridium in event of dire emergency. Not cheap - but it helps to get a clearance when you know darned well there is no radio and there is no radar and wouldn't you know it - the HF decides to go on holidays - just when you need it the most.

[frac]

IFR plan or itinerary shouldn't matter, because airspace is not protected since it's class G, also no radar coverage due to class G

Ok, so if I understand your point, the radar stops working in class G. People think that there is no service in class G but there is something that might be available and it is traffic information service.

Ok suppose I agree with you and radar coverage stops at the class G airspaice boundary (BTW I don't). My point for the difference between a flight plan and a flight itinerary is that ATS would know what to expect from you if you are on a flight plan. Believe me, ATC/FSS will most of the time provide traffic information service in class G airspace (time permitting). Also, the lost comm procedures are pretty clear for flights on IFR flight plans. For flight on IFR itineraries, you are basically on your own.

The lost comm procedures don't talk about failure in IMC in uncontrolled airspace.

Have you read the lost comm procedures?? They don't say it does not apply to class G airspace...

[mcrit]

If you're in class G airspace it's uncontrolled, you don't need coms. In fact, if you were to do the whole flight in class G, you could take an a/c w/o a radio.

[Hedley]

So that's why I never hear anything on 126.7!

[Airtids]

If you're in class G airspace it's uncontrolled, you don't need coms. In fact, if you were to do the whole flight in class G, you could take an a/c w/o a radio.

I was understanding this was about IFR ops . Could be wrong:

Power-driven Aircraft - IFR

605.18 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of IFR flight unless it is equipped with

(a) when it is operated by day, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (h);

(b) when it is operated by night, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (k);

(c) an attitude indicator;

(d) a vertical speed indicator;

(e) an outside air temperature gauge;

(f) a means of preventing malfunction caused by icing for each airspeed indicating system;

(g) a power failure warning device or vacuum indicator that shows the power available to gyroscopic instruments from each power source;

(h) an alternative source of static pressure for the altimeter, airspeed indicator and vertical speed indicator;

(i) sufficient radiocommunication equipment to permit the pilot to conduct two-way communications on the appropriate frequency; and

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.


Also, no radio required for flight in Class E either.

The underlying issue here is that the Wx minima will keep you safe in this circumstance from VFR traffic, and the lost comm procedure will keep you safe from other IFR traffic. "Plan the flight, and fly the plan".

Now, no navaids either and that's a different story. Good luck.....

[groundtoflightdeck]

There is sometimes radar in the uncontrolled parts, especially if you're still up high. Squawking 7600 might just allow ATC to advise other aircraft in the vicinity or FSS for a broadcast. Other than that, just follow the plan less the radios, as it has been said, you won't stay up there forever, and I'm guessing most airports in class G airspace aren't home so you need fuel to get home.

[C-GPFG]

Kincardine, ON is in G and has an approach.

[Clothesliner]

Ok, so if I understand your point, the radar stops working in class G. People think that there is no service in class G but there is something that might be available and it is traffic information service.

Ok suppose I agree with you and radar coverage stops at the class G airspaice boundary (BTW I don't). My point for the difference between a flight plan and a flight itinerary is that ATS would know what to expect from you if you are on a flight plan. Believe me, ATC/FSS will most of the time provide traffic information service in class G airspace (time permitting). Also, the lost comm procedures are pretty clear for flights on IFR flight plans. For flight on IFR itineraries, you are basically on your own.

The lost comm procedures don't talk about failure in IMC in uncontrolled airspace.

Have you read the lost comm procedures?? They don't say it does not apply to class G airspace...

If an airport is in uncontrolled airspace, it likely won't have radar coverage. And yes, I've read the lost comm procedures, Mr. frac. I never said they didn't apply to class G, they just don't mention it.
My point is this: I'm thinking of the worst case - been cleared out of controlled airspace for quite a while, approaching an uncontrolled airport away from controlled airspace in IMC. Maybe it's a busy-ish airport where people could be departing IFR (as clearance wouldn't be needed) into IMC, while you're approaching with no knowledge of each other due to incoming's failed radios. Even if both aircraft have filed, there may not be a mechanism for them to know of eachother's presence. Or maybe both aircraft are on IFR itineraries...

[C-GPFG]

If it's "busy-ish" I would imagine NavCan makes it Class E.

[just curious]

Most airports in Canada are in uncontrolled airspace. Aircraft in the ADIZ along the coasts, all three of them have radar coverage, mostly military that isn't normally passed to ATC, but is available to Arctic Radio (FSS)

They like anyone else on the ground won't be able to help you since you are sans comms... but they can and do alert area traffic.

Squawk 7600, make your calls and approach when you had planned to. If you see an airport in visual conditions along the way, land and phone it in. Being free of controls is actually kind of liberating.

[frac]

If an airport is in uncontrolled airspace, it likely won't have radar coverage.

First of all, sorry if my previous answer sounded a bit rude, English is not my mother tongue but it is not a reason. Regarding radar coverage, it is probably true in the north or outside main centers but I am currently in Quebec for a couple of weeks and looking at the CAP, I see a lot of uncontrolled airports in uncontrolled airspace where there is radar coverage down to a couple hudread feet agl. With the RNAV (GNSS) approaches, I would be tempted to say that half of the approaches are in the CAP are in uncontrolled airspace .

My point is this: I'm thinking of the worst case - been cleared out of controlled airspace for quite a while, approaching an uncontrolled airport away from controlled airspace in IMC.

I understand your point. Just remember that this is only one part of the risk of flying in IMC in uncontrolled airspace.

Regards,

Frac

[Canoehead]

Hearst, Ontario is a great example of an IFR approach in class G, and guess where the radar is for for those parts... about 7 miles east of the field. The com failure is really a no-brainer: you always squawk "can't talk" and in class G, go in and land.

[cougr41]

[quote="just curious"]Most airports in Canada are in uncontrolled airspace. Aircraft in the ADIZ along the coasts, all three of them have radar coverage, mostly military that isn't normally passed to ATC, but is available to Arctic Radio (FSS)

They like anyone else on the ground won't be able to help [i]you[/i] since you are sans comms... but they can and do alert area traffic.

Squawk 7600, make your calls and approach when you had planned to. If you see an airport in visual conditions along the way, land and phone it in. Being free of controls is actually kind of liberating.[/quote]



Beware - these comments almost sound too good to be true. I know what you are saying, but it sounds far better than it should.

Best let folks know - if they have a com failure and they are in uncontrolled airspace - as asked by Clothesliner - you are going to do one of two things.

1. Shoot the approach and if lucky have sat telephone comms with "somebody - somewhere". And likely it will not matter, because there is no one monitoring the approach anyways. Or the folks you get on the sat phone will not know who to call.

2. Shoot the approach and hope like heck no one gets in the way.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell.

ADIZ stuff is irregular and very unreliable at low level - not to be counted upon or even hoped for at best. But with no comms all they can do is track you.

If they can pick you up - the holes in the system are huge and numerous. Hope for them but never count on them. I can take you to a dozen places that you will have nada.

Certainly they will not send out anyone to intercept you - there is no capability. They just sit there and watch the bad guys come and go.

If you go off screen and have not squawked or maydayed - or are not considered o/due - you will not even be looked for by those in the rad sights. They will - if they have even seen you - just figure you landed for a look see - just another geologist or naturalist. Be under a certain speed and you will not even likely be a blip on the screen.

Try calling for help along the Arctic coast - best hope you are in range of a repeater or ...... If you are very lucky someone will hear you - in my case a very obliging tanker - otherwise I would have had a rather chilly swim. Do not count on those wonderful sites that are manned by folks who truly need to get out for a bit. Once again those places are not designed to pick up the low level traffic fliying at low speeds.

Lots of places will not pick up any squawk - especially if you are low level. There is no coverage. So that piece of equipment - in this case - could be exchanged for a little extra fuel.

I got all of these T-shirts - and the grey hair to prove it. Not fun, but ya' do what ya' gotta do.

Love the freedom to operate in the cold desert - would not have missed it for the world.

[polythene_pam]

Some of the replies on here really make me shake my head. IFR flight training DOES graze over class G procedures pretty quickly, though, so I suppose it's to be expected.....


First of all, radar coverage has NOTHING to do with the issue. THere are VERY VERY MANY airports in class G airspace within very good radar coverage... sometimes right to the ground, or down to a couple thousand feet! Conversely, there are just as many (probably more) class E control zones around airports with little or no radar coverage. Centre separates you procedurally. The two issues are COMPLETELY unrelated (sorry for my use of caps... too lazy for html)

The comment about a busyish airport being made class E is also false. THere are several VERY busy airports in this country all class G. check out some of the fishing resort bases in the middle of summer, their aprons chock full of novembers, bonanzas, and bizjets.

Now, your main problem when IMC in class G is the fact that nobody is separating you from other IFR a/c. Normally, you are expected to separate yourselves through use of broadcasting position reports on 126.7 or the atf. Now, your primary means of separation is gone.

A satphone and 7600 squawk will help somewhat, as you can alert fss/centre and they may be able to tell any other KNOWN traffic about you (provided they have frequency coverage in your vicinity and are talking to the known a/c). Radar coverage doesn't really matter. They may have strips on 4 aircraft all estimating your airport for the same time. They don't see them on radar, but could certainly tell you their etas, last known altitudes, planned intentions, and maybe a phone number for local traffic advisories. Unfortunately, in class G, there may be unknown (to atc) ifr traffic at your 12 o'clock and 5 miles, opposite direction, just flying along and broadcasting their position on 126.7, and there's really not much you can do about it.

If you know of a number for some ground base at the airport, you could
use the sat phone and get them to relay your position information on the required frequency. Otherwise, centre may have an overflight that could do it for you.