Thompson FSS....wtf...over

Kurwa · Post by **Kurwa** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:33 pm

Here Here!!

I couldn't agree more! But just out of curiosity, what are the rules on that kind of thing...I do it all the time!

Cheers

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:30 pm

....been cleared onto an active runway immediately behind a lander many a time at a controlled airport (YYZ)... I sure hope it's legal!

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:43 pm

A couple years ago at an airport with FSS I taxied up to the runway after a run-up, heard there was a king air or something similar about 5 miles out and inbound for the same runway, and with zero conflict I announced on the MF I was moving into position on the runway and departing VFR (C172)........the FSS "controller" told me to hold short since the other aircraft was inbound for the same runway.......I ended up holding short and waiting a couple minutes, then departed........I spoke with the FSS manager over the phone when I got back to home airport and he basically said (if i remember correctly) that the FSS personnel were not to be giving instructions, rather advisories....similar things still happened later on around the same airport with a select few of the FSS personnel, I'd always hear instructions being given to aircraft rather than providing an advisory.....kinda annoying.

smartass · Post by **smartass** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:26 pm

An FSS is not a controller!! He doesn't have the authority to control you, only give advasories as was stated earlier.

As far as conflicts a departing aircraft can't be cleared for take off unless the preceding is turned clear of the departure path or there is no possibility of the departing aircraft catching up to the preceding.

For a landing clearance the preceding aircraft has to have departed prior to the arriving aircraft crossing the threshold and either turned clear or be at a point where the arriving aircraft won't be able to contact the preceding aircraft in the event of a missed approach.

The next time the guy beaks off at you tell him to do what his job details outline... namely cleaning the duck shit off of the radar attenna.

... · Post by **...** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:36 pm

Cpt S&J,
Funny you mentioned Thompson FSS.

They voiced their thoughts on the radio to a SAAB aircraft about one of my guy's last summer flying outta there.

They took off just ahead of a cell (10nm) that had a few good 'sparks' associated with it. They called clear of the MF zone, and then a Saab called looking for the active and traffic 'advisory'. It went something like this.

"...active is rwy ##. Traffic is a #### that just left the zone southbound and I have no idea what the heck (or hell) he's doing flying through this..."

Let's ignore that he may have forgotten to take his turrets pills. Is the word 'heck' or 'hell' an acronym I missed out in the AIP amendments of ATF/pilot dialog?

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:42 pm

Sorry, I should have asked (as a wrench, I know squat about this kind of thing): Is it automatic that rules regarding who can go on a runway and when, would be different at a controlled airport?

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:54 pm

Yea for the most part at a controlled airport you require clearance from ATC before you can enter the runway and take-off.

At an uncontrolled airport like those with FSS, you need only make an advisory radio call and be sure there are no safety issues at hand such as another aircraft on final approach, taking off etc.

The pilot-in-command is always responsible for safety overall, that doesn't change at uncontrolled vs. controlled...........mainly what people are discussing here is the issue of a certain few FSS personnel who over step their boundaries by trying to give instructions and information that normally should only be dealt by ATC.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:32 pm

Roger that Ralliart .... I figured the rules would be similar though, regarding whether or not it's kosher to enter the active behind a lander, before he's cleared the runway.... no? yes?... If so, I can tell you the controllers in YYZ consider it legal. Is that a part of the issue?

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:50 pm

In essence you are right Griffon. For example a controller cannot clear another aircraft to land unless the runway is clear of other traffic, and at an uncontrolled airport you cannot land unless the runway is clear of other traffic.

However, while this parity exists for almost all the basic yes/no rules, it does not apply to everything. For example when there are two intersecting runways you can land two aircraft on them at the same time, but at a controlled airport ATC has a plethora of rules which must be satisfied first, while at an uncontrolled airport all that is required is that the PICs come up with some way of making sure no collision happens.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:17 pm

Hmmm,

I wonder if that ass hole from Red Deer got sent (read banished) to YTH? I remember a certain sob who wouldn't talk to you unless you had received the ATIS, he was always rude to my students, and often tried to be a controller.

Could have something to do with Nav Can decreasing the level of service that FSS'ers are allowed to give. Not being able to answer 26.7 or give briefings anymore, their job is getting less interesting all the time. Just guessing here, maybe the guy @ th radio has his own issues we'll never comprehend.

I know sometimes the folks in YMM tend to act more like controllers now that they have access to YEG's radar. Smile...bite lip...nose to the grind stone...no back talk....smile...

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:45 pm

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:...has anyone noticed the arrogance of yth fss...I never heard of fss people this off the wall....councelling pilots on airmanship..wtf is that!!!

I say this...if I break the law..then call it in..ill gladly pay the fine..as always..if not @#$! off, close your mouth and do your job. always remember this FSS....you work for...ME..not the other way around.

if you are FSS from somewhere civilized...disregard this.I deal with fss from other places and this is not for you.

Actually, they don't work for you. They work for Navcanada. I would have thought you might have figured that out by now.

If you are as charming at work as you are behind a keyboard, I'm surprised they haven't had other, more pointed suggestions for you.

It takes just as much time to say, "Oh, I hadn't thought about it, thanks" and forget all about it as it does to get your back up and have him watching you like a hawk for something, anything to call TC about.

Even if what they call in is nothing violable, you'll still wind up with a guy who will give you grudging service, strictly within the letter of the law, until you eventually fly somewhere else.

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:33 am

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:....but I can do my job without them to some extent anyway.

Oh? You can do your job without AME's can you? With what? You got your own wings sprouting from your back? You can't even start the engine without an AME's blessing, and if you ignored that basic law of the jungle, you'd soon be a messy part of the landscape.

Support staff, my ass! Yessir, that did indeed sound arrogant. Nope, AME's don't generally work for pilots... sorry to split these hairs, but our work, just like yours, is for the owner of the airplanes and their helpless passengers... Sometimes it's made more complicated by having to find ways to make sure some of the more boneheaded pilots don't screw things up, but that's not what I'd call working "for you" either... That'd be like saying the cops are working for the lawyers.

Kurwa · Post by **Kurwa** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:20 am

Some of these FSS guys drive me crazy. Some are good and some are not so good. For starters, I agree that as long as I'm not causing a conflict, then the runway is mine to use, safely and legally. Under that premise, I usually won't start a backtrack uncontrolled unless I have an IFR clearance incase of a delay, I'm not sitting on the threshold of a runway awaiting a VFR approval or the real thing in case someone else shows up during the wait.

While many FSS guys will try to 'control' aircraft, others will often issue an advisory along with a snappy traffic remark in a tone of voice that tries to implicate that you're doing something wrong. Then they're the first ones on the phone to someone to report your registration and licence if they have it!

On the flip side, I know of a few places where the 'strenously advised' advisories are greatly appreciated, as the limits of their job description don't go far enough to get the job done. An example of this can be seen daily at a place like YGK. A student/unfamiliar pilot will call with 'request for taxi'. The MF fellow will issue all the the known traffic, wx, active runway followed by "taxi is at your descretion". I've seen many a pilot take this to mean 'taxi anywhere you want whenever you want'. This statement is usually followed in a few minutes by "there's a Dash-8 short final...suggest you hold short for the landing traffic"...and quite literally there is a Dash touching down.

I also hate the fact that if you took most of the briefers in YXU to heart, you'd never go flying! They'll give you a wx breifing that forcasts some kind of ice or thunderstorms and then grunts and groans 'did you hear what I said?!?!" when you continue to file a flight plan under the assumption of using it to go flying! This happens repeatedly to me and recently as I continued 'towards my impending death' based on the briefer's remarks, admittedly, I did actually see a thunderstorm, but it wasn't anywhere near our route of flight and we remained VMC the entire time!

It's to the point where I don't put an ounce of faith in any of the accuracy of a weather briefing! They paint a picture for you of Bloody Armageddon out there, and when you're out there...it's sunny and clear!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:41 am

S&J, AME's don't work " for " you.

But they may work " because of " you.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:34 am

I thought AME's worked because of pilots ... see, pilots take a perfectly good airplane away, and bring it back broken.

As far as FSS people go, some are incredible and others obviously get very little job satisfaction.

It's important to remember from a pilot's perspective, FSS is really just a unicom operator with a mike in one hand and a pen in the other, hovering over a stack of forms to submit reports of contraventions to Transport.

Blastor · Post by **Blastor** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:54 am

FSS (Nav Canada) forgets who they working for: ME. Like you said it's not the other way around.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:46 am

co-joe wrote:Hmmm,

I wonder if that ass hole from Red Deer got sent (read banished) to YTH? I remember a certain sob who wouldn't talk to you unless you had received the ATIS, he was always rude to my students, and often tried to be a controller.

No, Chuckles is still there, as pleasant as he ever was.

hydro · Post by **hydro** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:38 pm

Kurwa wrote: I also hate the fact that if you took most of the briefers in YXU to heart, you'd never go flying! They'll give you a wx breifing that forcasts some kind of ice or thunderstorms and then grunts and groans 'did you hear what I said?!?!" when you continue to file a flight plan under the assumption of using it to go flying! This happens repeatedly to me and recently as I continued 'towards my impending death' based on the briefer's remarks, admittedly, I did actually see a thunderstorm, but it wasn't anywhere near our route of flight and we remained VMC the entire time!

Part of this is because we are drilled into saying that lovely phrase 'VFR not recommended' if certain criteria are met. That includes even if we think it's going to be better then forecast, we need to do it by the book.

Another part, is most FSS are not pilots. If its forecast VFR not recommended you think no-go. Severe Icing, Thunderstorms, generally you know its bad. And so you'd get more cautious briefings of the type you mention. The FSS that are pilots will know 900 ft, and 21/2 miles, or widely scattered T-storms that you can see and avoid are something to be cautious about, but aren't doom and gloom. They'll just tell you like it is, and help you on your way.

Also re pilot respective about the occurrences/violations. Realize that we get monitored by supervisors and/or Transport Canada and if we don't report an occurrence we are the ones who get in trouble. Some are way more lenient then others about letting things go. But even us lenient ones have heard the stories of Transport Canada supposedly fining FSS for not reporting aircraft doing things like the popular 'right base'. Makes you think twice about 'letting something go'

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:12 pm

Hydro: I understand you have excuses as to why FSS has to act Transport's eyes and ears, but keep in mind the rest of us sure as heck don't.

That kind of "help" most of us really could do without, thank you.

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:38 pm

Griffin. Some people can run an operation without you. They just need your licence # to jot down beside the entries in the journey log

. TC can't tell the difference. And neither can the aircraft if you know what you're doing

.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:50 pm

How did we get to this abysmal state of affairs in aviation?

For over fifty years I managed to get through the day to day routine of earning a living as a pilot without any violations or real problems with TC.

Since TC bacame a Gestapo organization with no other goal but to " catch " us doing something " wrong " I have been written up three times for such capitol offenses as walking from the airplane across the taxi way without permission from FSS,,,, can you imagine such mindless stupidity?

Do these stupid fu.kers think we cant cross a taxiway on an airport that may have one movement down the taxiway every half hour?

I meas jssese how in hell do we cross streets?

Anyhow the only way we can deal with it is avoid any contact with these gestapo types if at at all possible, then if forced to communicate with them show utter contempt for them..

That is not illegal...yet.

Cat

Circuit-Jockey · Post by **Circuit-Jockey** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:58 pm

I must admit, I've been to YTH a few times, and they are by far the most arrogant ATC dropouts...around the prairies anyways. These guys are notorious for telling pilots what to do and when to do it. They even have the YTH "tower" so they can feel like real controllers. Give it up guys. S&J, although blunt and arrogant has a valid point about them working for us...I mean that's why they call themselves Flight Service Stations!! They are supposed to provide a Service...within the bounds of their job description. While 95% of the FSS I've ran into over the last 20 yrs have been great people doing great work, I always seem to get some young punk, too good for this job, bitter jackass of an FS specialist when I go to YTH. Always spouting out instructions and attitude. ie give me a call 10 back....WTF??? I'll call you when the CARS say I should!! The point of this rant is " Tone it down fellas and read your job description!". One of my friends in high places recently told me that this station gets its fair share of complaints. Sounds like they are all justified.
Just to respond to a comment about right bases in MF's. This is a very grey area, but I suggest if you come in from the "wrong side" once in a while, just call final, or even better call on a five mile final. Transport needs to clarify this rule. A circuit is defined by the aircraft being flown. Some join 15 mile final, some join 15 feet final. If you fly a base leg at 2000AGL are you even in the circuit?? It is perfectly legal to join final in an MF as long as no conflicts exist. And besides, going overhead the field often causes more conflicts and headaches at a busy airport anyways. The problem is the people who make the rules in this country fly 50 hrs a year and have little or no real commercial aviation experience. Enough TRUTH for one night...this rant is over!

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:44 am

Ooooh! I dunno if you want to bring up the right base issue again.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:21 am

I never understood the whole right base witch hunt that Transport created, for some odd reason.

It's very simple: a base leg is by definition part of the circuit.

If you are laterally or vertically clear of the circuit, a right turn (eg onto final) is NOT a right base.

You enter the circuit established on final as per the regs and AIP at an MF. It doesn't matter if you previously used a left turn, a right turn or a split-S with an 8 G pull to establish yourself on final.

What could possibly be simpler to understand?

Just because Transport says something stupid does not make it so, despite what they might want you to think.

Every once in a while, it becomes painfully apparent that Transport is filled with flight instructors and ex-military pilots that no one in the private sector would hire.

Jug · Post by **Jug** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:59 pm

What about the chick who works there?

Thompson FSS....wtf...over

Re: Thompson FSS....wtf...over