Help! Sault vs. Moncton

[KAG]

Spruce moose, what part of halifax did you grow up in? I'm from Sackville, springfield lake to be exact. I'm really starting to miss that lake. Maybe I'll commute.

Back to the schools, I would take MFC over Sioux if the funding doesn't happen - if you have to pay full price. If your going to pay that kind of money do it as fast as you can and get looking for a job ASAP cause this hiring spree wont last forever.

[Spruce Moose]

I was born in Halifax but lived in Dartmouth. I can't remember much though because I moved here when I was 3 . My dad lives in Chester so I spend a good part of the summer down there.

Yeah, with one more year left of school + college i'm wondering if I will make it in the hiring spree. What are the mins for Air Georgian, is it hard to be based out of Halifax?

[Canoehead]

SM

Yep, only one that year. A few from Quebec, but they all used Ontario addresses to beat the system.

As for OSAP, living in Ontario in the past won't help. The NS government has financial aid, but you need a lawyer to figure it out... Your best bet would be to talk to the banks. I dealt with Scotiabank.

Good luck.

[BankAngle1987]

I would most definately consider Confederation college because, among other fantastic assets like affordability, a unique float flying experience and a fantastic reputation in the industry, Confederation offers training at the third highest traffic volume airport in Ontario! If you really are serious about Air Canada, you would benefit greatly from the busy environment. Also, consider the fact that Confederation college, while maintaining a great training schedule, has you finished in 2 years, while Sault takes 3. If you're done faster...you're working faster! And great northern airlines are right across the apron, and frequently looking for work on the PC-12, Fairchild Metro and other medium-sized carriers. These guys are great stepping stones to right seat in on "The Maple Leaf". Give Confederation a shot! I'm going in to second year, I've had a fantastic experience here, and I wouldn't dream of choosing any other school in Canada.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

does Confed now offer Multi-IFR?

[fingersmac]

Nope.

They do an "Advance" Float Endorsement (24 hours on floats including a few hours on a 180) over the summer, in between first and second year.

They also teach the IFR ground school in second year, leaving the TC exam and flight training to your own accord.

[BankAngle1987]

The majority of folks leaving confed generally go for a summer season on floats and then either try the instructor or the multi IFR option after, unless they secure a permanent position in the bush. Realistically, the odds of being in a multi-IFR enviroment right after graduation are generally slim, although lately more twin jobs are becoming available so who knows. The main reason Confederation is desirable in my opinion, is they allow you to train in a comfortable environment. Yes it is just as demanding as any other program, in fact I would say more-so since the program is shorter, but there is more of a one-on-one feel to the instructor-student relationship here. That personal touch is often sacrificed at other institutions for a more rigid, hard-edged, militaristic atmosphere. I suppose in the end it depends on what you feel comfortable with in terms of a learning environment. Best advice is just keep asking questions!

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

If you really are serious about Air Canada, you would benefit greatly from the busy environment. Also, consider the fact that Confederation college, while maintaining a great training schedule, has you finished in 2 years, while Sault takes 3. If you're done faster...you're working faster! And great northern airlines are right across the apron, and frequently looking for work on the PC-12, Fairchild Metro and other medium-sized carriers. These guys are great stepping stones to right seat in on "The Maple Leaf".

Are you posing as a College guy to do some trolling? If so, very well done. If you really are a college kid, you're doing a great job of reinforcing the aviation college stereotype.

PS Don't forget to mention the "stepping stone" thing when you waltz accross the ramp to get your Metro job, they love to hear motivated ladder climbers.

[DHQ]

I graduated Sault College 03.

All the good points everyone's been saying I'd agree with. Great instruction, good equipment, good learning environment. The flying training, great!

As an overall experience? Not so good. Here's a few reasons why that stick out the most:

Attitude. You could barely get the hangar doors closed at night trying to fit instructor's egos and big attitudes in there. I think that's a product of the "professional atmosphere" with new 300h instructors lapping up the "yes sir, no sir" business.

Timeline: has sault college ever finished a class remotely on time? If the program is supposed to finish in October, fine, but don't advertise that it finishes in May! I also hated how they always blamed the students somehow for the delays and failed to acknowledge the failure in resource management.

Classroom: A LOT of filler garbage. I'm sure I took the same english resume class 3 times. I still remember the first math class, "2+3 = 3+2, BUT, 3-2 not equal 2-3". That's no exaggeration.

Nonsense. Like a few others have mentioned, the everday stupidity. Getting a form signed by 14 different people just to take a day off... mandatory airport arrival 4h before your flight... to name a couple. i know there's a little bit of this everywhere you go, but I've failed to be involved with an institution or a place of work to match Sault College.

So, no single thing was terrible... but after three years, these things just had me in such a bad mood. You mention anything like this to them, well then you're questioning perfection itself.. how dare you! then they can make you last on the schedule, make you work dispatch more... annoying things like that.

Would be great if they were able to impove on thees things over the last couple years. Any recent grads know if these dumb things still go on?

[. ._]

Oh yeah, it's still the same. That's the price of cheap flight training. Though I disagree with all of the "filler" stuff. I got a (non flying) job because I could spout off a bunch of Team stuff from my 3rd year english class. And some of the instructors are GREAT.

I wonder if I'll ever be able to step on the College property again without my blood pressure going through the roof...

-istp

[BankAngle1987]

Nope no industry troller here! I am actually a student, and everything I said I take stock in. I know there are a lot of optimistic happy-go-lucky college students who would like to think they can just sail into their first flying job, but I recognize the difficulties. I'm not saying it's easy to snag a job with these companies, I'm just saying the atmosphere is more condusive to learning becuase you get higher traffic volume experience, but without the crap and U.F.I. associated with some of the other institutions. Who the heck really needs to know the number of rivets on a Zlin anyways? I don't know about you but I benefit more from an instructor who actually wants to teach than a slick flyboy who needs his ego polished to a high gloss every time the propeller starts turning.

[Canoehead]

I know there are a lot of optimistic happy-go-lucky college students who would like to think they can just sail into their first flying job, but I recognize the difficulties.

But you have all that "high volume" airspace time. Surely you will have no difficulty securing your first job

Here's a thought for students and instructors (college and private). You will learn more at your first job (not instructing...) than any college or flying school will teach you. Be humble, and always be willing to learn. That will take you far in aviation.

Spruce M: don't get all caught up in the hype. Do what you feel is best for you, and don't look back (it sometimes hurts too much!). Write a list of pros and cons. Visit the schools you are interested in. In any event, always remember that while there is plenty of good resources here in this forum, it only represents a fraction of opinions. Good luck!

[Canoehead]

Timeline: has sault college ever finished a class remotely on time? If the program is supposed to finish in October, fine, but don't advertise that it finishes in May! I also hated how they always blamed the students somehow for the delays and failed to acknowledge the failure in resource management.

Nonsense. Like a few others have mentioned, the everday stupidity. Getting a form signed by 14 different people just to take a day off... mandatory airport arrival 4h before your flight... to name a couple. i know there's a little bit of this everywhere you go, but I've failed to be involved with an institution or a place of work to match Sault College.

There is some merit to your points, but only some. I can tell you why the students get some of the blame for getting behind.

(War story time)...

When I was a student there the only reason you took any time off was for a family funeral, or some other similar event, like your own funeral. In recent years everyone wants time off for everything and anything (and the college allows it...that's another issue). I've seen all the excuses for time off. The best I ever saw was "I need to take xx days off because my rabbit had bunnies". When you have to deal with 10 to 15 time off requests at a time, the schedule is going to suffer. When I was a scheduler, I had a set of rules that I followed. A major one was to do with aircraft maintenance/inspection intervals, and it absolutely crippled the scheduling of flights, but it was a necessary evil (to a degree). As far as time off went, I gave priority to flying those students who didn't ask for time off. It was only fair (besides, they were the dependable ones). I understand that many students need to take up jobs part time, but if it is a pain in the A## for the schedulers, then expect some delays. If you are a student who does not take time off, and you feel you are being left behind, then speak up. This threat of doing laps or dipatch or whatever should not be an issue if your schedulers have half a brain.

No, the program end date should not be advertised. But I'm also pretty sure that students are informed in the literature that you are expected to be available to fly. Period.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the Sault program is being treated as if it is a right, and not a privilege. If you can't handle the way your (essentially) free flight training is being done, then leave.

Anyways, rant over.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I wonder if I'll ever be able to step on the College property again without my blood pressure going through the roof...

...trust me...you will...I've been out of there for 11 years now and all I remember is the good times...I actually miss the place!...life was alot simpler then...BTW, all the bullshit just gets you ready for the bullshit in the real world
Is Louis STP still there?
How about Earl...does he still lean on the wall as he walks down the corridor?

[BankAngle1987]

all the bullshit just gets you ready for the bullshit in the real world

I absolutely agree in the sense that these programs are designed in part to acclimatize students to the world of bullshit lurking outside the cozy doors of the college. It can certainly be said that every school is filled with staff-student politics and seemingly redundant/unnecessary policy but it's all good experience because unless things drastically change in the near future, pilots still start at the lowest end of the totem pole with all the associated "pleasures" of being a newbie. I just think perhaps they should draw the line at which policies are actually viable training tools, and which are simply an attempt to make themselves appear "hard-core" for a better reputation.

[Capt. Obvious]

I graduated Sault in '05 and I've missed it since the day I left. The college is what you make of it. If you work hard, don't complain, and show up on time, you get treated very well, if you do the opposite, well... what do you expect?. Funny thing is, I'm in the 'real' world now, and you're expected to act in that manner, any less and you get canned. I don't see why it's its fine to act any different just because its school. SC does good preparing it's students for real life. I'm biased because I went there, but I have friends in many different institutions and in terms of training and equipment, I really feel SC kids have it too good.

Where ever you choose to go to school will be an amazing experience if you make it one, make your decision based upon what you feel is the best choice for what you want to do, and try and be critical of what other people have to say about college X or college Y because they're not investing the time, you are.

Happy hunting friend
CO

[DHQ]

Hi Canoehead,

Interesting to hear the other side of the story. I always thought being the scheduler must be a pain in the ass.

As far as students taking time off, it always seemed to me that if I wanted to take a day off, there were 14 other classmates that would jump on the chance to take my slot and catch up a little. That's why I don't see the big deal in time off... there's always someone else who could fly. What really got me, was being told I couldn't afford to take time off, and then I wouldn't be on the schedule for 2 weeks anyway...

[Canoehead]

DHQ, I understand where you are coming from, and to many (make it the majority), the scheduling can look chaotic or just plain inefficient. I'll be the first to admit that I had my fair share of screw-ups putting together schedules.
Back then we used "the board". It's that piece of aluminum with the class list and all the LP's that essentially gets checked off as you go. There are all kinds of variables that go into making the sked, and in the world of VMC-only flight training, they are different all the time. Maintenance, Wx, instructor availability , Bev , DFTE availability, student availability (or un-availability ), who-did-what-today, x-c days, who pooched their recommend etc etc... The list is endless. The more the scheduler can control or eliminate from that list, the better. We often tried to stagger students- Earl and Brian can only do a couple of flight tests per day, so over the course of the semester, we tried to spread it out so 35 people weren't waiting for weeks to do a ride...
If the scheduler wants you to fly, they want you to fly, not your 14 other buddies in your spot. There is a significant "game plan" in effect behind the scenes that not everybody understands. In fact, not even the senior instructors always have an understanding of it. It is the scheduler's responsibility to make it all come together. Yeah, we've all had stretches of time off the schedule for various reasons. I flew once in 30 days at one point during semester 3. The best thing you can do is be available.

Scheduling was great, especially when I got into the "groove". I was able to have a lot of control over my life because of it!

I don't miss it though

[KAG]

Nope no industry troller here! I am actually a student, and everything I said I take stock in.

that seems to be a common trait among college students, they think they know it all. Not picking on ya, just proving a point.

You mentioned that:

"

If you really are serious about Air Canada, you would benefit greatly from the busy environment.

How would you know what would benifit you at AC? your still in school. What benefits you there is a family connection and a stacked resume.

Also, consider the fact that Confederation college, while maintaining a great training schedule, has you finished in 2 years, while Sault takes 3. If you're done faster...you're working faster!

This I agree with. But...

And great northern airlines are right across the apron, and frequently looking for work on the PC-12, Fairchild Metro and other medium-sized carriers. These guys are great stepping stones to right seat in on "The Maple Leaf

They are great stepping stones... But those companies do not look at newly minted pilots. They do require some experience, 1000 hours of float time for Bearskin (at least thats what it used to be) and NAC will stick you on the ramp with 800 hours.

Not trying to pick on ya, you seem to have a positive attitude which is a good thing. Just don't "take as much stock" in what ever lines these college's are feeding you these days.
I was also a college student, and quickly realised that past the halls of what ever school you came from, your diploma meant little, but nice to know info.

One thing that will benefit you at AC is a good attitude, which you seem to have. Just realise that you, and all students have nothimg more than a license to learn.


Cheers.

[BankAngle1987]

"This court finds the defendant guilty of being shamelessly optimistic"

Okay, so while I do from time to time spout the odd aviation college rhetoric, I also firmly agree with the fact that it takes a lot more than college ground school to secure an airline placement. Believe me when I say that I have several acquaintances (one specifically I can think of) who believe they are going to sail out of here, across the pond and land a European JAA job easy as pie. I find these individuals a tad blissfully ignorant since they validate spending thousands of dollars on tunnel dreams.

I would like to think that I have a somewhat realistic perception of the industry from what I've been told by airline acquiantances(though periodically tainted with a thread of youthful optimism). I never said to the originator of this post that you can hop out a college into an airline position right away. Having worked at a flight school since I was 13, I am more than familiar with depressed, young instructors trying to crawl towards the required ATPL hours. I simply meant that this environment at Confederation is beneficial because there is constant exposure to medium-scale airline activities, and it's a great place to "learn by osmosis".

How would you know what would benifit you at AC? your still in school. What benefits you there is a family connection and a stacked resume.

I am just being speculative. Would it be easier to make a transition to the airline environment having at least been around some heavy traffic rather than backwoods grass strips? I recognize that you are an AC man, and I’m not trying to step into your backyard…just making an educated guess that’s all. And incidentally, I’m the first aviator in my family since my grandfather hunted Nazi Wolfpacks in the North Atlantic, so there goes the family connection line!

I appreciate your positive comments, and your encouragement, however I believe you misunderstood my intentions.

[KAG]

Actually, I'm a Jazz man, some on here would take offense to that...


I'm going to dispel another myth. Having trained in a busy environment is not the be all end all. If you can learn in one, it's stands to reason that that an experienced pilot can come from a backwater grass strip and learn as well. It’s not hard.
The only real difference from YYZ to YEV is the amount of chatter on the radio, and a few more signs to look at.

No matter what route you take, at some point your going to become familiar and comfy in your garden patch. Then you get a new job, in a new environment and have to learn to get proficient again - It's all a learning curve, it never stops.


The biggest assets you take from school (aside form your licenses) are your attitude, work ethic, and drive.
This is not an easy career, have no doubts.
Most in your class will never fly for hire, or not make it too see a big machine. Fear of the unknown, unwilling to move, work hard, or the disillusioned will have a very hard time of it, most will walk away.
New pilots who try to make a go of it from the security of a big city will also have a long uphill battle. There will be those lucky few who will score great jobs out of school, and the rest will have to work hard for there break.

Point of this long rant? Well it doesn’t matter what college you go to – there all good.
If you can do it cheap take that route. If not do it quick, cause this hiring spree will end.
Personally I would rather have had less debt than when I graduated, cause I just paid it off and it took me 10 years. Having less debt will enable you to weather the bad times a little easier as well as make some finically painful choices easier – IE leaving a good paying job for Jazz.
You’d be amazed how money factors into your career decision making when you have outside financial responsibilities (family, mortgage, huge student loans). I never would have believed it 10 years ago…


Cheers.

[floatpiperdriver]

Hey,

If you are only considering Moncton and Sault I would say go to Moncton...if you can get the cash. If you are from NS, it is close and many of the regional carriers out there respect Moncton's scheme. Also, I have many friends who have gone throught the Moncton program and are now working for jazz and Provincial.

Both are said to be good schools, so, good luck, buddy.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

While I agree with KAG that your work ethic and attitude are the most important things to develop while you are in College, I disagree on the statement that most in your class will never fly for hire...there will probably be a few that don't, but from my experience at the Soo, most in my class and the two classes before and after have found good jobs in the industry.
As for the regionals looking at Moncton, or Sault, or Seneca, or anyone more favorably...that is simply not true...as was mentioned before, your college diploma is simply a licence to learn...you will discover that once you graduate, you know pretty much nothing ...experience and "who you know", along with "right place at the right time" are the ingredients to getting a good job...as well as a good attitude and work ethic...I think whatever school you choose will be fine...I'm just biased because I enjoyed the Sault so much!

[KAG]

what is the rate of students that start to finish, and of those that finish get jobs?

In my school, I started with 35 in my class, about 10 finished. 2 more of those than quit flying. Of the other classes, countless others never got there first jobs. Alot found other work in other fields, and settling down to life (family, house, and so on) for various reasons.
Maybe it was the marketting that made aviation sound easy, not sure. That school is long gone.

What are the other schools like?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

sorry KAG...I thought you were refering to the "graduating class"....65 started in my class, 20 finished, 19 are flying...