Why can't we do better than this?

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

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AC Forever
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Why can't we do better than this?

Post by AC Forever »

I just got this off Canada.com and the Star Phoenix in Saskatoon. Now granted, Saskatoon doesn't add up to much in the whole AC world, but when I hear about this kinda stuff out of the "Center of the Universe" and our main hub, it makes my blood boil...... How come we can't treat people better than this? This is our lifeblood, and certain people don't seem to get it!!! :x OK .... Rant over :oops: :

Air Canada Loses a Passenger
Hate is such a harsh word. It really is. But after hours of contemplation the other night, that’s what I’m starting to feel about Air Canada.

I don’t despise the airline’s staff — there are some good and decent employees, particularly here. But I’ve had it with Air Canada’s customer service, mired in arrogance, entitlement and downright meanness.

For years my feeling about Air Canada has been more one of annoyance or perturbation. But not anymore.

It’s not the inevitable problems that happen on every airline but the way Air Canada chooses to deal with customers when trouble breaks.

Some years ago I figured out that no one at Air Canada really cared if I lived, died or flew on their airline, so I stopped buying their tickets.

However, with a cache of Aeroplan points, I did continue to fly Air Canada occasionally. But the latest farce sealed it.

The other day, while flying from the U.S. to Toronto, the flight was delayed because Air Canada’s incoming flight was late. No big whoop — happens all the time.

But as the delay mounted, our built in several hour cushion was getting pretty thin to clear customs, make the hike to Terminal 1 and catch the connecting flight to Saskatoon.

On landing we were greeted at Toronto’s Terminal 2, Station 25, by an Air Canada employee with an affected tone of speech. He looked and sounded like an unemployed actor practising soliloquies in an empty hallway.

Curtly, he dismissed us while pointing at a ceiling screen and saying, “You’re not getting on that plane to Saskatoon. Go see the ticket agent.” It had a “Candid Camera” feel — unsuspecting rubes meet the unhelpful and rude airline employee. I kept waiting for the joke, particularly when he arrogantly intoned that, “We don’t hold connecting flights for you or anyone.” As I asked the guy his name, he said it was Grant. But then he covered up his airport identification badge — the one with his last name on it — and lectured me that he was under no obligation to tell anyone his last name.

Something was clearly amiss when, moments later, a nearby baggage handler sidled up to us and quietly mumbled, “I’m really sorry for how this guy treated you. He’s out of line.” This was significant. It was the only time in the next 16 hours that we would hear any Air Canada employee utter the word “sorry.” So we were bumped from our flight and booked several hours later on the last flight to Saskatoon on standby because the late flight was already full, oversold in fact.

But minutes later, we discovered that our original flight to Saskatoon had never left and was delayed.

Trying to get back on the flight, we were then told — along with several dozen other people — that the flight was being cancelled because Air Canada couldn’t find a flight crew.

This resulted in the stand-by routine: the subsequent flights are sold out — oversold even — overnight hotel voucher, and so on.

But unlike so many other airlines I’ve flown, the next dozen or so Air Canada employees ranged from unhelpful to incompetent and even openly hostile.

Not one ever said the words, “I’m sorry.” No one asked, “Is there anything I can do?” Not one smiled or offered a word of consolation.

At one point, we thought maybe Air Canada would use a larger jet for the late flight and clean up the mess it had created when it cancelled the earlier flight.

The brusque and unsmiling woman at the gate said, “No, that’s not happening.” For several hours people shuffled from station to station, lineups grew, midnight moved in and we were booked for the last flight out of Toronto a full day later.

Because it would be a late-night flight, any further delays, overselling or problems would see us spending a second night in Toronto with only the clothes on our backs.

And through it all, there was nothing but studied indifference, impatience and even thinly veiled contempt from Air Canada staff.

Finally, tired of making nice, I dialed 1-888-WestJet, a number well memorized from many uses.

After a two-minute wait, a woman named Cheryl answered. We chatted like old friends, me whining a bit, her making sympathetic noises and then asking, “Is there anything I can do for you?” And she kept saying “sorry” over and over. I asked, “Can you get us out of the clutches of Air Canada and Toronto?” Cheryl said “sure,” and within five minutes we’d purchased WestJet tickets for a flight leaving in a few hours. And that is how we got home.

What Air Canada will never get — and WestJet trades on — is that empathy is cheap. So are courtesy, decency and being friendliness.

Unfortunately, last minute tickets home aren’t so cheap. But Cheryl had me at “hi.” And like every encounter I’ve ever had with WestJet — even during difficult times — there was open communication, an exchange of information, a shared understanding and an offer to see if help could be found.

Air Canada even refused to compensate us.

Later, one of the good Air Canada Saskatoon staff heard our story and authorized a cash voucher, although it is worth less than half what the WestJet tickets cost.

The frequent flyer joke that Air Canada’s motto is “We’re not happy until you’re not happy” has come true one time too many for me, and it will affect my future travel choices, although I will hate to walk away from all those Aeroplan points.

(John Gormley, The StarPhoenix)

Gormley can be heard Monday to Friday at 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. on NewsTalk radio 650 CKOM
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

We do "do better than this". We just don't post the many letters of "thank you, great job" because it's tacky. To publish letters of discontent is cool. I guess. :roll:
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John Bull
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Post by John Bull »

I've had similar treatment from AC.

For some reason YYC seems to be a black hole of customer service. I don't live there, never have done, probably never will but almost every time I connect through there with AC I get screwed and treated like dirt.

Fortunately, I'm sure tonysoprano can reassure me it's probably the Bow River water and not something endemic to AC.

For the record, I'm ex-AC.
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TFE731
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Post by TFE731 »

John Bull wrote:I've had similar treatment from AC.

For some reason YYC seems to be a black hole of customer service. I don't live there, never have done, probably never will but almost every time I connect through there with AC I get screwed and treated like dirt.

Fortunately, I'm sure tonysoprano can reassure me it's probably the Bow River water and not something endemic to AC.

For the record, I'm ex-AC.
To begin with, I want to apologize you really feel this way. It is hard sometimes to understand why deserved customer service is not often received from various employees. Obviously work ethic along side with customer satisfaction does not rank high amongst some employees of AC.

But to make a sarcastic remark and then emphasize your point that you're ex AC, I find, is unnecessary, and partially suggests that you may have been the type of employee that only furthered this commonality that seems to exist in people's heads about AC.

Futhermore it is unfortunate that the many positive tasks accomplished by AC employees that DO go above and beyond go widely unrecognized or unnoticed. Most agree that a company can do 10 'rights' in a row but when 1 'wrong' occurs it is noted, exploited, and persuasively presented to others to join along in their feelings of hatred and dissapointment to indirectly satisfy his/her need that "they shall not get away with this".

I am not purposely trying to strike a tone with you personally, but merely presenting my opinion about this situation and maybe suggesting that it may be somewhat unfair to slander an airline and it's employees as a whole for one who represents us poorly. If indeed you are treated like 'dirt' as you say, why not state it to the person directly in an assertive but non aggresive manner. No matter their following reaction I'm quite sure that person will go home and feel a slight bit of guilt or shame that he/she inspired a comment like that from a customer and believe me, an assertive yet controlled comment has a much more penetrating effect, even to a person with the thickest skin, than a ballad of loud voices and severe hand gestures.

In the end, no matter what we say, it's all a numbers game. How many employees does AC have? I don't know the number specifically but can easily venture into the thousands maybe more than 10 000. What are the odds that there will be several amongst that group that aren't fulfilling their job requirement properly. And what are the odds of there being pleasant, helpful, and conscience bearing people. In the initial article, do not forget that a baggage handler standing on the sidelines, who witnessed this performance, felt bad for the customer and out of pure decency and sympathy decided to go and apologize to them. Why did he/she do this? They probably couldn't make a difference with them making the connecting flight or getting them a new ticket. So why did he/she do this? Because they obviously felt that the customer did not deserve to be treated they way he was. Just like employees don't deserve to be thrown into the same negative hand basket for other people's performance.

If anything I am making a statement here for the ones that do feel they genuinely put forth an effort to make their company better and try to fulfill their role in customer satisfaction one passenger at a time. Those people do exist.
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John Bull
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Post by John Bull »

TFE731 wrote: But to make a sarcastic remark and then emphasize your point that you're ex AC, I find, is unnecessary,
If you find suggesting tony refuses to see any negative in AC sarcastic, then do yourself a favour and don't argue with me.
I pointed out I'm ex-AC only to deflect any speculation that I might be with your biggest rival that tony likes to poke at.
and partially suggests that you may have been the type of employee that only furthered this commonality that seems to exist in people's heads about AC.
It suggests no such thing and is a ridiculous statement. I left AC on good terms with no animosity. I still hold no animosity toward the co. just because of several dipshits. If anything your statement suggests you're quick to make assumptions based on fuzzy logic.
it is unfortunate that the many positive tasks accomplished by AC employees that DO go above and beyond go widely unrecognized or unnoticed.
I agree with you. But that's a function of human nature. If you show up to work three days late in a row your boss will sure let you know. Show up an hour early three days in a row and he/she won't even notice. That's true for all organizations.
Most agree that a company can do 10 'rights' in a row but when 1 'wrong' occurs it is noted, exploited, and persuasively presented to others to join along in their feelings of hatred and dissapointment


If you're suggesting a 90% satisfaction rating amongst customers is okay then I hope you're not in charge of customer service. Hell, I wouldn't even buy a $20 item on eBay from a seller with a 90% satisfaction rating so I don't think you should set that as a goal to people spending hundreds, or thousands, of dollars.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you didn't think that one through too carefully and wouldn't say it twice.
I am not purposely trying to strike a tone with you personally
You have a funny way of showing it.
suggesting that it may be somewhat unfair to slander an airline and it's employees as a whole for one who represents us poorly.
Check out the definition of slander. It's not slander to say you've had poor customer service. Also, if it was just one I wouldn't bother to write it.
I've had poor service from other airlines also. Canadian, WJ (yes, happy, were-all-owners WJ), Jetsgo, to name a few, but none as frequently (as a percentage) as AC.
If indeed you are treated like 'dirt' as you say, why not state it to the person directly in an assertive but non aggresive manner.


If a person's holding you by the balls with one hand and they have a knife in other sometime let me know how that technique works. I find shutting up best.
In the initial article, do not forget that a baggage handler standing on the sidelines, who witnessed this performance, felt bad for the customer and out of pure decency and sympathy decided to go and apologize to them. They probably couldn't make a difference with them making the connecting flight or getting them a new ticket. So why did he/she do this? Because they obviously felt that the customer did not deserve to be treated they way he was.
I didn't forget it at all and one of my experiences was similar. Several years ago I flew into YYC and was connecting to YEG. It was a connection I absolutely HAD to make which is why I took the precaution of flying into YYC almost three hours early even though a later flight was available and had no check-in luggage, only carry-on. I was travelling on standby but both flights were wide open - this was back in the days when they weren't so secretive with that information. The flight to YYC was over two hours late but I still made the counter with 25 minutes to spare. The check-in agent told me to wait until my name was called. This woman was very busy and, judging by the way the others treated her was obviously in charge. She also had a man with her the whole time who I figured was a trainee as he was clearly subordinate to her.
To cut a long story short. She screwed up. She forgot me. About eight minutes before departure (and about two after the last regular pax had disappeared) I went to ask about my ticket. She then informed me the flight was closed. I politely asked her to reconsider as she had been the one to tell me to wait. She was extemely rude to me in response. She didn't yell but her voice certainly raised and she blatantly lied about having told me to wait.
The trainee she was with, who was with her the whole time and knew she was BSing me, looked shocked at her reaction and gave me a very sympathetic look. I felt the same towards him, after all, who would want to work with such a bitch.
To sum it up, this piss poor excuse for a human being cost me professional embarrassment and financial loss but the thing I most resented was not her incompetence but the way she BS'ed to cover it up.

TFE731, I'm well aware there are great employees at AC. Remember, I worked with many of them. And, generally speaking, if I've got past check in it's been good except for a couple of miserable F/A's. This includes several jump seat (pre 9/11) experiences. I can also say I've never lost a bag with AC - although had a few take the scenic route to me. But for some strange reason I'm only batting about .750 with check-in. Perhaps it's just my luck or my deodorant but I don't think that's acceptable when they are the first impression the traveler gets. If you want to defend that by attacking my post go ahead.
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Post by 55+ »

tonysoprano wrote:We do "do better than this". We just don't post the many letters of "thank you, great job" because it's tacky. To publish letters of discontent is cool. I guess. :roll:
Couldn’t agree with you more, but unfortunately it is general human nature to remember unpleasantness rather that extol positive service sad as that is. To illustrate, I was on an Air Canada A320 a few yrs ago out of CYHZ to CYYT and unfortunately (for me) I was given the seat next to an emergency exit. The male F/A did the usual briefing on operation of this exit and I had the Globe and Mail in my lap and just as he started his briefing on operation of the emergency exit portions of my paper fell on the floor so I bent down to pick it up, next thing I hear in a rather condescending /assertive voice that I am sure was heard by the next few rows of passengers“ Sir, are you paying attention”. I folded my paper up, put it in the seat pouch ahead of me, this took at least 10 seconds and then I said to him “Sir, I am an Airline Transport Rated Pilot with a significant background and in the course of my training I opened a few emergency exits, think that would meet Air Canada’s standards” I isn’t my nature to give the appearance of being confrontational and especially make reference to my flying background, but this rude behavior by that F/A annoyed the f--- out of me, having said that, this incident didn’t spoil what I considered a pleasant flight from then on and I still have a high regard for Air Canada. It was interesting to hear was the comments (typical Air Canada behavior one guy said, WJ are not like that said another, etc., etc.) from the others sitting in the rows ahead and to the other side of the plane who heard everything. I didn’t pass any further comments after that just put it behind me. :?
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

Mr. Bull
For every one of us who try to defend AC there are many more of you morons who try to put it down. I made a simple statement with no intent to take it any further but rather you had to take it to next level of stupidity. If you really are exAC than that would explain alot of our problems in this company. The YYC bunch have been known to be our worst not because of the water they drink but because they are mostly exBlue and really resent working for AC or so the story goes. I'm sure that in a company as large as AC is, you will get bad service and yes, sometimes even good service. Of course we have to do better but I'm not even going start a how-to-fix-it argument with you. If we are all as bright and happy as you are, this company would be a much better place, right?
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A330
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Post by A330 »

Ac forever and others feel passionate about the company and it's ashame that some others don't feel or display the same. I believe it's widely known that front line customer service and gate agents are among the weakest link in the operation. My favorite being the professor looking agent with a most serious look, sporting a sweater with the grey haired pony tail and wrist guard, intently looking down at something very complicated while ignoring all around him, but truthfully looking at his watch for his next union inspired break. Or maybe the lady beside him with eleven chop sticks in her hair keeping it all together, with the glasses just barely hanging onto the end of the nose.

Anyway, as another EX, I just smile and know that the vast majority are very good and an asset to AC ( especially in the FLT Deck ), but there are always going to be those AGENTS !

Now what about replacing that old 767 on some of the long routes like LHR-YVR like I'm about to do in a few weeks. That machine MUST be replaced, or at least refurbished with a decent entertainment system. Man alive.. :shock:
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Jeremy Kent
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Post by Jeremy Kent »

Good post, TFE731.
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Dockjock
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Post by Dockjock »

Agreed.
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Rebel
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Post by Rebel »

John Bull quote:

“To sum it up, this piss poor excuse for a human being cost me professional embarrassment and financial loss but the thing I most resented was not her incompetence but the way she BS'ed to cover it up.”

Hey John Bull what are you doing using pass’s for personal business?

Perhaps you're living up to your handle "John Bull".
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Post by Jaques Strappe »

Either way, this gentleman should not have been treated this way and deserved better. I hope someone contacted him with apologies and an attempt to right a wrong.

Just because we get good letters shouldn't mean we just right off the bad ones.

I empathise with employees who are constantly short staffed with no support and I also realize that the customers who scream the loudest are usually the one's holding the 99 dollar ticket, however, they are holding our ticket nonetheless and that should be worth something.
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Post by sportingrifle »

I feel we are collectively all (especially our stock optioned to the eyeballs senior management) missing the point. Most employees are decent and work hard, a few are morons, but all are stuck with dealing with the fallout from the calculated risks that senior management takes to cut costs.
The problem is that they haven't hired enough people early enough to train them and have them online. It is compouinded by a contract that makes some positions so undesirable that they remain unfilled. Management can't say they didn't see the demand in advance - marketing set out the flight schedule nearly 2 years ago. Now that it's off the rails, the well compensated management are accepting no responsability (if you can even find them!) leaving the front line employees unable to do anything for the customers and left facing their unbridled wrath. Don't worry, we'll get a six sigma team right on it!
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AC Forever
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Post by AC Forever »

tonysoprano wrote:We do "do better than this". We just don't post the many letters of "thank you, great job" because it's tacky. To publish letters of discontent is cool. I guess. :roll:
You don't get it do you Tony? It doesn't matter ho many good things we do, and I know we do a lot, but one bad thing like this, no probably 15 less than desirable responses that this gentleman got over his two day runaround will do more damage than 50 good things, because of human nature, I guess. This is where we must be on guard, because any airline, no any business, will screw up, but it is how you handle that screw up that will set you apart, and I feel that we do a terrible job in comparison to our main competition in explaining things and helping our customers understand.

By saying we do a lot of good things does nothing to fix the problems we have, and will continue to have, unless we face up to the truth!
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Post by EI-EIO »

respect costs nothing, and yet it's what people expect when they pay for tickets on "full service" airlines...
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Post by Hyster »

55+
I folded my paper up, put it in the seat pouch ahead of me, this took at least 10 seconds and then I said to him “Sir, I am an Airline Transport Rated Pilot with a significant background and in the course of my training I opened a few emergency exits, think that would meet Air Canada’s standards”
I dont think your background is as significant as you say. If it was you would know they have to do that same briefing even if the man sitting in that seat invented the emergency exit. He should have just kicked your ass to another chair.....ATR pieelot.
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Post by Long Keel »

Yes,

@holes like this Grant guy exist, and I wish they would be fired or quit. Daily I see great people here and ones that have no business in customer service. The bad ones are the small minority but it only takes one or two to destroy a persons opinion of our company.

Our senior managers are a little out of touch when it comes to these things. I don't honestly believe they think that there is a problem at AC. Head in the sand gets us no where.
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You learn more from your mistakes than your successes. F**k enough things up and you'll die a genius.
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Post by 55+ »

I dont think your background is as significant as you say. If it was you would know they have to do that same briefing even if the man sitting in that seat invented the emergency exit. He should have just kicked your ass to another chair.....ATR pieelot.[/quote]

My backgroung was just a significant as the persons next to me who, more than likely, never opened an emergency exit. Sure, he could have kicked my sorry ass to another chair, he is a flight crew member and has that authority and it is also well in his authortiy to put that 17 yr old with a walkman or ipod with a headset stuck in his/her ears :roll: :roll:
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

AC has now about 25000 employees worldwide. Are each and every one of them good employees? Probably not. Can management keep an eye out on every employee all the time? No. The bigger the company the more bad incedences we will have. Does British Airways or American Airlines have more bad scenarios like the one that started this thread than AC does? You bet ya. You guys are dreaming about a perfect world where every employee is a machine, not a human. I'm willing to bet that even our best employees have their bad days and end up giving AC a "bad reputation". The point some are missing is that providing a service on the scale that AC does, you try and minimize the bad service but also accept the fact that it is there. A few months ago I witnissed a woman ranting out loud in the airplane how rude the agent was to her and that she "would never again fly AC". Last week I recognized her and saw her boarding one of my flights quietly and seemingly satisfied. Oh well. I guess she tried the competition and wasn't happy with them iether.
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2low
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Post by 2low »

Oh well. I guess she tried the competition and wasn't happy with them iether. (spelling intentional) :lol:


Great cheap shot man!!!!! :twisted:
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

either?
Great cheap shot? Man that's what this whole thread is about. You're one to talk. Too low, you have to push the flap overide button man, you're still in the wrong config. :lol: :roll:
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2low
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Post by 2low »

:smt018 Oh Anthony :roll:
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Mustang Sally
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Post by Mustang Sally »

Nice pic, toolow.......really expresses what a sensitive guy you must be.

Anyway.....unfortunately, the problem with customer service at most large companies like AC is the result of the bureaucratic nature of them. Try dealing with Bell Canada!!! Because of this, there is limited (or complete lack of) accountability and responsibility to the customers needs, no matter what the job description (including pilot). Most employees of these large corporations are disgruntled to some extent, and as a result they tend to become self centred and often desensitized to the plights of those who are actually responsible for them getting a paycheque....the customer. Often you may actually get an apology from these employees, but it can often sound rehearsed, overused and quite frankly....patronizing.

For those of you who are fortunate enough to be flying for AC, you should be very concerned when any customer has a bad experience.....even if it only happens 1 in 100000000 times. Trying to justify it by comparing it to other airline customer service blunders will not prevent future problems. Instead of taking a defensive attitude about it....maybe a proactive attitude might be better. Doing whatever you can to make a customer's experience better goes a long way....and it is contagious. I think many people forget that the customer's needs are more important than our own.

I think the important thing to realize from the original post is that you may have lost that customer, and even more who accept his unfortunate experience as the norm at AC. The power of word of mouth is unbelievable. Something to think about.

Anyway......at any level of this industry....there is always going to be potential for a customer service disaster. AC, as well as all carriers, should really consider customer service as a major ongoing concern. Of course there will always be customers who will be unreasonable....but the majority of customers have valid complaints. It really should be all about the customer....shouldn't it??? IMO this should be the responsibility and concern of ALL company employees. Just appeasing a frustrated customer with a voucher without any sincerity to the apology will not guarantee a returning customer.

Bottom line: If this happens too often......well, you might be asking the other guys for a job.

Just the opinion of a humble charter pilot. :wink:
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

Bottom line: If this happens too often......well, you might be asking the other guys for a job.
Sally.
AC is over 75 years old. The first problem with customer service is probably just as old. As pilots there ain't much we can do. We write up an incident and hope for the best. I think that 75 years from now, we (they) will still be having this conversation. Everything should be perfect everyday because we are in a service industry. It ain't. That's reality. Ever watch that show "Airline"? It's all about that other "happy" airline to the south that supposedly has revolutionized our industry. The show is nothing more than one hour of bad customer service and bad customers in general from that great low cost wonder. What should we do about the many customers who really hate us but somehow always come back for more "punishment"? You see, all we can do is our best. This thread is, as many others are, a philisophical dilema. Not reality. So I'm afraid I can't take your advice of asking the other guys for a job too seriously. I think I'd rather flip the proverbial burger, eh? Am I defending bad service? No. Of course not. I've been a victim of that bad service from my own team myselfe. Am I worried? I'll let you know in 75 years.
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Four1oh
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Post by Four1oh »

hey Tony, you should just hope your company survives the next 5, let alone 75... :D
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