Nav Canada killed Call signs?

[flyinhigh]

Any other company have recieved the letter from NavCan stating that as of August 1 that we will need to use our civil registration instead of companies call sign?

ps. Guys don't leave your AvCan account on at work

[hazatude]

I'm writing a letter of protest. Any aircraft that I am riding on becomes, "Haza ONE". That was an agreement I had with Mr. Harper!

[rd1331]

From what i've been told from some NavCanada employees is that our first call to them will also have to include our civil ident. That you can still use your callsign after.
They don't know how to count airplanes for there billing so they are doing this instead. Its a joke.

[flyinhigh]

It not like if the master flight plan didn't have both call sign + civil indent!

[Concestor 0]

Any other company have recieved the letter from NavCan stating that as of August 1 that we will need to use our civil registration instead of companies call sign?

That's because your call sign "BushBasher 666" was deemed "inappropriate".

[rd1331]

Center Stored do not have civil idents.

[55+]

Any other company have recieved the letter from NavCan stating that as of August 1 that we will need to use our civil registration instead of companies call sign?

ps. Guys don't leave your AvCan account on at work

Should ask them where is their f----- authority to do that. NC has, at times over stepped it's bounds. Sometimes NC thinks they are a regulator and should be taken down a peg or two in my humble opinion.

[Doc]

55+...bang on! Let's see them force that crap on Air Canada, WestJet, British Airways....They'll screw with "Black Fly", lets see them screw with "Speedbird"!!!

[Elessar_44]

Wait, does that mean that big airlines wont be able to use their nicknames (aka callsigns) anymore?

[Swerved]

I read the memo the other day at work...seems to me that they're giving carriers the opportunity to lower their fees by giving the civil ident on the first communication of each flight number. This way, they can be charged one daily fee per aircraft, as opposed to one fee per flight number. The way I interpreted it is that it's the carrier's choice. If they don't do it, they'll get charged for each flight number. Seems unfortunate to me, but I'm sure the bean counters at work will be trying to make sure we all behave well, and provide the info. <sigh> What can you do?

I agree with one of the earlier posts...I'll laugh when I start hearing AC and WJ, BA, and all the others doing this.

We'll see what happens...

Swerved.

[linecrew]

Should ask them where is their f----- authority to do that. NC has, at times over stepped it's bounds. Sometimes NC thinks they are a regulator and should be taken down a peg or two in my humble opinion.

Sounds like a decision that was based on their billing system vs. anything to do with improving anything operational.

Doesn't justify if though.

TC gave up all responsibility regarding callsigns in Canada (except military) to NAVCAN a while ago so unfortunately they can simply do what they want.

[charlie_g]

First I've heard of this. I don't fancy the thought of having to write down the ident of every flight that comes off the ground...

This thread alone is worth the amusement of reading how some people almost have an aneurism anytime the subject of NC's authority comes up.

And I don't know why it would come as a surprise to any of you that the ANS operator has authority over call signs? Further, controllers have the authority to require a/c to use their civil ident at any time. Usually this is only done when the morons in dispatch give a/c on identical routes nearly identical call signs. I.e. "ClappedHo 345" and "ClappedHo 435" and "ClappedHo 235". Try that on frequency all at the same time, and see how many times clearances are taken by the wrong a/c... Accident waiting to happen.

[55+]

"This thread alone is worth the amusement of reading how some people almost have an aneurism anytime the subject of NC's authority comes up."

Well........... there are some who have been inside NC(like me) and know what is going on. Like the countless re-orgs that have been going on over the past five years, if not more that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars(From airspace re-alignments and back again, AIS shifting, this list goes on and on). If people who read these threads/posts knew what NC was doing with their money , they would be quite amused I am sure.

Please spare me the NC platitudes as I have been around to long

[sweetgal]

charlie_g is right about the similar idents. we've been told that those will be asked to change but in the meantime no abbreviation allowed on similar idents not to confuse. I mean civil idents that are similar like FCBA and FBCA. Also to advise similar idents of each other when on the frequency at the same time. I haven't heard anything about sked flights now giving civil idents. but we only find this stuff out the day it starts to be in effect as to not confuse us It could have to do with the billing but I think it's probably the AC101 and AC111 at the same time type of thing.

[complexintentions]

First I've heard of this. I don't fancy the thought of having to write down the ident of every flight that comes off the ground...

This thread alone is worth the amusement of reading how some people almost have an aneurism anytime the subject of NC's authority comes up.

And I don't know why it would come as a surprise to any of you that the ANS operator has authority over call signs? Further, controllers have the authority to require a/c to use their civil ident at any time. Usually this is only done when the morons in dispatch give a/c on identical routes nearly identical call signs. I.e. "ClappedHo 345" and "ClappedHo 435" and "ClappedHo 235". Try that on frequency all at the same time, and see how many times clearances are taken by the wrong a/c... Accident waiting to happen.

Actually the only time I've seen it become a problem is when the "morons" in NC only have one controller working two positions, ie YVR early-morning working Clearance and Ground on two freqs at once...here's just one example of how an error can be compounded by poor procedure...

AC A calls up for clearance, gets it, switches to ground and gets his taxi. (With the same controller.)

AC B (same company, similar flight no) calls up Clearance and asks for...the wrong clearance, the one issued to AC A. So controller says, naturally.."AC A, didn't I already give you your clearance?".

Except...he's broadcasting on both freq's...so the real AC A, who's still on ground taxiing, replies on Ground "Uh...yeah?", and AC B replies on Clearance "Nope, go ahead!". Of course, neither AC can hear the other.

Meanwhile other A/C are chiming in looking for clearances...what a cluster. They had the frequencies separated pretty right quick!

As far as giving the civil ident, why not just get it on ground when an a/c is taxiing in at destination? In years of overseas and Caribbean ops that's how they've always done it...for that matter why not annotate it on the strip at cleaance delivery and it becomes part of the strip for the whole flight?

[charlie_g]

"This thread alone is worth the amusement of reading how some people almost have an aneurism anytime the subject of NC's authority comes up."

Well........... there are some who have been inside NC(like me) and know what is going on. Like the countless re-orgs that have been going on over the past five years, if not more that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars(From airspace re-alignments and back again, AIS shifting, this list goes on and on). If people who read these threads/posts knew what NC was doing with their money , they would be quite amused I am sure.

Please spare me the NC platitudes as I have been around to long

You forgot CAATS.

[highlander]

We received the letter as well. Read it carefully!

If you have a flight plan filed or itinerary with FSS, then you will not need to give your civil ident of the 1st call.

However, if you are just doing circuits or training and have nothing filed, then on the first call you must give your civil ident then your call sign.

It is being done for billing purposes. I think the biggest problem is that the folks at FSS or in the control towers don't know about it yet so I suspect there will be some confusion.

[xsbank]

How 'bout "in consultation with the industry whether to shut down a station and go to regional weather stations" while they are spending millions renovation the same station?

Unfortunately, the way government does business and the way business does business are diametrically opposite - any of these organisations that were previously Crown Corporations are being run by bureaucrats and therefore are being run badly.

If a bureaucrat found ways to be more efficient and economise, his budget for the next year was cut. If he added employees and expanded his plant and was generally inefficient, his budget was increased(!). So how well does that work in business, and show me how a not-for-profit organization like this one can ever be efficient?

You cannot make this 'company' efficient, because it is also a monopoly, and there is no competition to argue with over pricing.

NC can raise its salaries, overhaul its offices, have the most expensive real estate, and all it does is raise its rates cause it cost more to provide aviation services these days, doncha know?

[talkinghead]

Does anyone have a copy of this letter from Navcan and could they post it?

[sweetgal]

xsbank, I understand you are pissed at Nav Canada because of the fees and the monopoly. But I have to say that government or other private companies spend way more money and charge way more and it affects alot more people. I'm talking about cost of heat, electricity, phone etc. As for Nav Canada making improvements on existing stations, well I have to say that my station is getting a new building and it is really needed. We are working with 1950's or even older equipement. We can't see the runway. When we are working the radio, we are facing away from the window. This has proven to be unsafe and they have decided to invest some money. I have to say it's not a luxury. So if you think we have state of the art equipment and they overspend, you're wrong.

[superiorwhore]

Bitch Bitch Bitch.

All you guys do is bitch, you need to learn to take it like a man and bend over, don't you know thats all were good for.

[trey kule]

Sweetgal:

I am not sure your antedotal example, while being true, really addresses the big picture issues, and I think that is what XS-Bank was alluding towards.

There are no checks and balances on Nav Canada. This whole non-profit thing seems to be a rationalization for spending money anyway they see fit , or raising fees. They were created by a federal government who had reached the breaking point on taxation, so they simply continued to take and keep the taxes, and formed a not for profit, user pay corporation from a government department. Brilliant strategy. and the worst part is that there are people out there who bought all this malarky.

You are working, at your station, with outdated and outmoded equipment (forgive me if I dont take the bait on the 'safety' issue) because the government does not want to use the taxes they collect to pay. They want the user (who BTW pay those taxes) to pay the taxes AND pay for usage.

It SUCKS.
Have to agree with XS Bank.

[charlie_g]

There are no checks and balances on Nav Canada. This whole non-profit thing seems to be a rationalization for spending money anyway they see fit , or raising fees. They were created by a federal government who had reached the breaking point on taxation, so they simply continued to take and keep the taxes, and formed a not for profit, user pay corporation from a government department.

Transport's payroll shrunk by ~6,300 people when NC was formed, and the ATT tax was subsequently repealed. The current NC charges are about 15-20% lower than the ATT was *ten* years ago, and the best part is that only those people who use the ANS are paying for it. In fact, NC just announced a *reduction* in service charges the other day.

And if you haven't noticed, the goverment has cut tens of billions of dollars of income tax out of the budget in the last few years, and just reduced the GST by $8B/year. (it's a start, but we're still overtaxed.)

The only debatable tax grab is the oft-referenced avgas tax (11 cents/L). It should be repealed, but that is an issue for the government, not NC.

Be careful whose malarky you buy into...

[grimey]

First I've heard of this. I don't fancy the thought of having to write down the ident of every flight that comes off the ground...

Same here. Only time I've heard of any sort of requirement to give a civil, except where there was confusion between to company idents (and that's done on the fly at the discretion of the controller or specialist, not by some overriding company directive), is where a company hasn't paid their fees. In that case we're given a company name, and a list of civil ident which we're not supposed to provide most services to.

Flyinhigh, do you have anything official to document this, or is it just the rumor mill? (edit: should have read the rest of the thread... disregard...)

[grimey]

As far as giving the civil ident, why not just get it on ground when an a/c is taxiing in at destination?

There's a certain problem of some pilots being completely unable to read the ident off of the console. Or just guessing and giving a random (wrong) ident from the company fleet. Ok, one pilot, I won't say who.