Was just reading "The Immortal Beaver" recently and there was some mention of the stalling speed, loaded in the beaver in a 60 degree turn being around 105 mph. Where I've been working, I've had the fear of death put into me on stalling the beaver in a turn. Especially with some flaps on...climb flaps for instance. I listen to the guys I work with, I DO take they're advice, I fly safe I think, and as a new beaver pilot I'm "starting to get the hang of the thing". So that means, I want to get the feel of the plane a little more. I've flown with the experienced guys here and there and I've seen them really make the beaver shine.
By shine, I dont know exactly what I mean, but I guess I can surmise it up in the words "crank and bank". So here is where Im looking for some input: I wont be "shining" like the guys I work with for a good long while, but I would like to have some input on my limitations. For instance, when your doing a steep turn onto final into a lake with a full load, as i understand it, if your descending such that your not "increasing the g-force" (ie. not staying level in the turn with back pressure) on the airplane then your stall speed shouldn't really increase that much at all. Its the g's that make the stall speed go up isn't it?
Not that I really do many steep turns with guests on board, but it would be nice to know what I can do without getting into trouble. Anyway, I guess Im just trying to understand this "stalling in a turn...in the beaver" rumor. What effect do the flaps have on the stall in a turn? Yada yada, any input on beaver flying appreciated (and watch the digressions perty please...dont turn this into some obscure thread).
Thanks
Boozy
Turns in the Dash-2
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore, Rudder Bug
I only flew the beaver for 1 season, and I too knew all about the turn to final stall problem. Here's what I figure:
There is no wing washout, if you stall it, it happens all at once, Also, remember in your training the "illusions created by drift"? That was the only time I came close to scaring myself. I believe that the famed turn-to-final stall is because of the drift illusion when your head is out the window. Think about it, you are probably low level, less than 500' and you're concentrating on the lake/river in front of you, pulling the power back to descend, and not noticing the speed bleeding off on you. The time it happened to me was exactly those conditions, and I could feel the pivot point of the plane move further and further back, and that's when I hit the power to get out of it. After I scared myself, I did frequent airspeed checks during the turn, and it never happened to me again.
Unfortunately, I only got 450 hrs on that plane, and I wished I had flown it more. Enjoy it! It's awesome what you can do with it!
There is no wing washout, if you stall it, it happens all at once, Also, remember in your training the "illusions created by drift"? That was the only time I came close to scaring myself. I believe that the famed turn-to-final stall is because of the drift illusion when your head is out the window. Think about it, you are probably low level, less than 500' and you're concentrating on the lake/river in front of you, pulling the power back to descend, and not noticing the speed bleeding off on you. The time it happened to me was exactly those conditions, and I could feel the pivot point of the plane move further and further back, and that's when I hit the power to get out of it. After I scared myself, I did frequent airspeed checks during the turn, and it never happened to me again.
Unfortunately, I only got 450 hrs on that plane, and I wished I had flown it more. Enjoy it! It's awesome what you can do with it!
Boozy wrote:
A Beaver's stalls speed is very unpredictable especially in tight turns with a big load. The problem I have always found with a Beaver is because it is so easy to fly, the pilot quickly develops the sense of, I can do anything with this aircraft and it will fly perfectly right up to the point where it quits flying. I've had a few scares myself in it and I have a few dead friends who experienced more than that. Be careful and enjoy your time on the greatest single engine bushplane ever!!
Why would you do that? Remember that smoother and least scary the ride, usually means the bigger the tip! Think tips and you will never have to worry about killing yourself doing something that there is no reason to be doing!!!For instance, when your doing a steep turn onto final into a lake with a full load
A Beaver's stalls speed is very unpredictable especially in tight turns with a big load. The problem I have always found with a Beaver is because it is so easy to fly, the pilot quickly develops the sense of, I can do anything with this aircraft and it will fly perfectly right up to the point where it quits flying. I've had a few scares myself in it and I have a few dead friends who experienced more than that. Be careful and enjoy your time on the greatest single engine bushplane ever!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
If ya have to ask DON'T do IT!
Have ya got any aerobatic training, experienced a high speed stall? get the point if ya had you wouldn't be asking or wanting to even do it.
The fact that you are asking is indicative of your low experience. Just cause some guy does it who has 5000 hrs don't make it right.
Your experience is only as good as you make it, so if a guy practices poor airmanship for 5000 hours then what is his experience worth.
Have ya got any aerobatic training, experienced a high speed stall? get the point if ya had you wouldn't be asking or wanting to even do it.
The fact that you are asking is indicative of your low experience. Just cause some guy does it who has 5000 hrs don't make it right.
Your experience is only as good as you make it, so if a guy practices poor airmanship for 5000 hours then what is his experience worth.
- NoseDraggers Suck
I'm by no means an engineer, but my understanding of it is this:
Your stalling speed will only increase if you increase the weight of the aircraft, either aerodynamically or physically... This can be done 5 ways
1. physically heavier(more load)
2. bank angle with pulling to maintain altitude("G forces or "imposed load")
3. forward loading of A/C(more down force on elevator=more weight)
4. power reduction(some of the thrust is inclined vertically and supporting some weight)
5. Can't remember #5 right now...sorry.
So to answer your question, in a steep turn, while not pulling back to maintain altitude, you're not imposing anymore "weight" on the aircraft, so your stalling speed should stay the same as if you were in level flight (1G) The way this was described to me, by an older instructor I once had, was to take up a 152 and put on 90degree bank angle, the plane will "fly" just fine... as soon as you apply any significant amount of back-pressue, it'll stall. Wingovers are done this way.
Feel free to correct me.
Your stalling speed will only increase if you increase the weight of the aircraft, either aerodynamically or physically... This can be done 5 ways
1. physically heavier(more load)
2. bank angle with pulling to maintain altitude("G forces or "imposed load")
3. forward loading of A/C(more down force on elevator=more weight)
4. power reduction(some of the thrust is inclined vertically and supporting some weight)
5. Can't remember #5 right now...sorry.
So to answer your question, in a steep turn, while not pulling back to maintain altitude, you're not imposing anymore "weight" on the aircraft, so your stalling speed should stay the same as if you were in level flight (1G) The way this was described to me, by an older instructor I once had, was to take up a 152 and put on 90degree bank angle, the plane will "fly" just fine... as soon as you apply any significant amount of back-pressue, it'll stall. Wingovers are done this way.
Feel free to correct me.
"The price one pays for pursuing any profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side. -- James Baldwin "
you're right Bater, a descending turn wouldn't be a big deal, but as I said in my previous post, you are probably low level when you started the turn, and may be in level flight, with your head out the window, and add in the illusion created by drift and before you know it, you're pulling yourself into a stall.
Four1oh, yeah exactly.... the dreaded descending turn stall.... end up on your back and looking straight down at the ground.... There have been more than a few good ppl killed like that.
"The price one pays for pursuing any profession or calling is an intimate knowledge of its ugly side. -- James Baldwin "
I've flown Beaver for the past several years and have had the chance to stall the airplane in climbing and decending turns with and without a load. Trust me when I say you don't want to do it in a 60 degree bank turn to final.
The way i've kinda done it when possible is a maximum of 15 degrees of flap when setting up for final. The rest comes on when i'm lined up.
P.S. Don't be making steep turns to final while pumping your flaps down unless you have already picked out your plot at the local cemetary.
The way i've kinda done it when possible is a maximum of 15 degrees of flap when setting up for final. The rest comes on when i'm lined up.
P.S. Don't be making steep turns to final while pumping your flaps down unless you have already picked out your plot at the local cemetary.
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Rudder Bug
- Rank 10
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- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:09 pm
- Location: Right seat but I own the seat
Steep turn on final
Hi guys,
I think having to do a steep turn onto final is in no way professional. First of all, a pilot flying an airplane should have had some stall practice in every configuration before making a living with it.
The Beaver is nice, flies gently and is so easy and forgiving until it bites you hard. Like many STOL planes, its a double-edged blade.
You should plan your approaches to avoid steep turns and be all lined up on final, wings level at 400 ft, like the airlines do. Keep in mind that a boring ride means a safe ride and is more likely to generate a tip.
I think having to do a steep turn onto final is in no way professional. First of all, a pilot flying an airplane should have had some stall practice in every configuration before making a living with it.
The Beaver is nice, flies gently and is so easy and forgiving until it bites you hard. Like many STOL planes, its a double-edged blade.
You should plan your approaches to avoid steep turns and be all lined up on final, wings level at 400 ft, like the airlines do. Keep in mind that a boring ride means a safe ride and is more likely to generate a tip.
Flying an aircraft and building a guitar are two things that are easy to do bad and difficult to do right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yd_QppdGks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yd_QppdGks
Good Input
Hey guys thanks for lots of good input here. Pretty much nothing has been said that I didn't quite expect....but the thing is...its just nice to here it again. That plane really does fly like a dream....YOU REALLY do think you can do anything with the damn thing ehh?
I've especially noticed the illusion of drift while turning down low with the beaver....its really discomforting. I dont even like to watch the ball for coordination...I find I chase it and ofcourse with all the bumbs and turbulence you're never cooridinated. I find I just "feel" whether Im cooridnated "so far", and that really works well (cross checking with the ball), but ofcourse your eyes can deceive when your drifting down low.
I was told that a tiny bit of flaps in a turn (just a half pump or so) really "tightens" up the turn. I've really noticed this and actually I find it almost uncomfortable to turn like this. And another quick question here, is there a range of flaps in a turn that is "THE DANGER POINT"? For instance, would climb flaps and a 45 degree level turn be the flipping point. When Im climbing out, I put the flaps up to "CLIMB" fairly soon. If I NEED to turn, I put the nose down a bit and turn with no problem. Nothing really steep, but it feels like it can do more if it had too! I guess this is how the beaver flys eh? Perfect right until it flips over.
Well thanks again for the input and I appreciate more. Naturally Im not doing steep turns with a load or with passengers. I can probably count the steep turns I've done on one hand, but I really like to fly safe. As for my experience, its not all that much but I sort of go by the motto "your not a good pilot until your a retired pilot" and I like to have all the information I can gather to get there, so thanks for the good pointers.
I've especially noticed the illusion of drift while turning down low with the beaver....its really discomforting. I dont even like to watch the ball for coordination...I find I chase it and ofcourse with all the bumbs and turbulence you're never cooridinated. I find I just "feel" whether Im cooridnated "so far", and that really works well (cross checking with the ball), but ofcourse your eyes can deceive when your drifting down low.
I was told that a tiny bit of flaps in a turn (just a half pump or so) really "tightens" up the turn. I've really noticed this and actually I find it almost uncomfortable to turn like this. And another quick question here, is there a range of flaps in a turn that is "THE DANGER POINT"? For instance, would climb flaps and a 45 degree level turn be the flipping point. When Im climbing out, I put the flaps up to "CLIMB" fairly soon. If I NEED to turn, I put the nose down a bit and turn with no problem. Nothing really steep, but it feels like it can do more if it had too! I guess this is how the beaver flys eh? Perfect right until it flips over.
Well thanks again for the input and I appreciate more. Naturally Im not doing steep turns with a load or with passengers. I can probably count the steep turns I've done on one hand, but I really like to fly safe. As for my experience, its not all that much but I sort of go by the motto "your not a good pilot until your a retired pilot" and I like to have all the information I can gather to get there, so thanks for the good pointers.
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Vortex_driver
- Rank 3
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:14 pm
On a turn, be careful with the stall of the tail, speacially if your flying a baron STOL beaver. I always been told to be carefull about it, and also with the ice. Had a friend of my friend who got killed few years ago turning final with ice on the stab combined with the illusion created by drift and poor vis... stall the damm thing. ALWAYS turn smoothly!
You can do some 80 degree turns with it in decent, but the problem comes when you have to level the plane, you'll have to pull and that's when you can stall it. better not to do it! you'll be sure to be back!
fly safe everyone, another crash last week here... lost my first closed friend.
That means it can happen, and don't increase your chances by doing stupid things like that 
You can do some 80 degree turns with it in decent, but the problem comes when you have to level the plane, you'll have to pull and that's when you can stall it. better not to do it! you'll be sure to be back!
fly safe everyone, another crash last week here... lost my first closed friend.
That means it can happen, and don't increase your chances by doing stupid things like that Just remember: a Hot Dog is a dead dog. And we eat hot dogs for lunch....
You will impress the people worth impressing by simply displaying a professional attitude, smooth aircraft handling, good airmanship and the very best of customer service. And no matter how good you think you are, you can always be better.
Chees,
Snoopy
ps, and the greatest single-engine bush plane ever is an Otter!
You will impress the people worth impressing by simply displaying a professional attitude, smooth aircraft handling, good airmanship and the very best of customer service. And no matter how good you think you are, you can always be better.
Chees,
Snoopy
ps, and the greatest single-engine bush plane ever is an Otter!
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
First, why would you put yourself into a position where you had to do such a steep turn to final??
Out here in mountain country we sometimes have to go into tight places and turn around to land but, in my experience, you usually don't have to go past 30 or 40 degrees to make it. The Beav has a great turning radius due to the slow speed.. You can turn it quicker but why?? If you do, then definatley unload it during the turn and it will be safer.. Keep the nose down and pay attention to the ball, you can bleed off speed pretty easy with a beav so if the speed picks up it shouldn't be a problem.. A little kick sideways and your back to approach speed..
Stay safe..
Out here in mountain country we sometimes have to go into tight places and turn around to land but, in my experience, you usually don't have to go past 30 or 40 degrees to make it. The Beav has a great turning radius due to the slow speed.. You can turn it quicker but why?? If you do, then definatley unload it during the turn and it will be safer.. Keep the nose down and pay attention to the ball, you can bleed off speed pretty easy with a beav so if the speed picks up it shouldn't be a problem.. A little kick sideways and your back to approach speed..
Stay safe..
Easy numbers to remember with Beavers... No turns below 80 MPH unless you have atleast climb flap on... and no turn's below 70 MPH even with flap... Keeping within these limit's will keep you safe...
"No turns Below 500 feet" is a crock of shit. low level turns can be made safely and comfortably, especially decending turns, as long as you keep the speed up and aren't crankin' and bankin'.
P.S. Hey Philly, sorry to dis on ya, but I find it hard to believe that you stalled a loaded Beaver in a climbing turn and survived to tell us about it.
MM
"No turns Below 500 feet" is a crock of shit. low level turns can be made safely and comfortably, especially decending turns, as long as you keep the speed up and aren't crankin' and bankin'.
P.S. Hey Philly, sorry to dis on ya, but I find it hard to believe that you stalled a loaded Beaver in a climbing turn and survived to tell us about it.
MM
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FOX-UNIFORM
- Rank 0
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- Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:49 pm
YEP YEP YEP, THAT'S ABOUT THE FUCKIN STUPIDEST IDEA I EVER DID HEARD OF. THERE'S ONLY ONE THING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT STALLING A BEAVER IN A TURN.... DON'T FUCKIN DO IT. STALLING A LOADED BEAVER IN A TURN... YOU BETTA GET YOUR AFFAIRS IN ORDER, CUZ' YOU GOIN' FOR A RIDE!!!
Jeeze philly, I'm surprised you got a fully loaded Beaver on floats up to 6000ft, must have taken a while. I feel bad forcing a loaded one up to 4000 on occasion with a canoe hanging off the side, usually takes a good 15 minutes at climb power settings. Haven't had a problem with flaps on in the turn before final but I always shove the nose over as I'm applying them and keep the airspeed close to 90 or so.
