RCMP mourns deaths of 2 Mounties

[talkinghead]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national ... eaths.html

Last Updated Sun, 16 Jul 2006 12:16:55 EDT
CBC News
Two RCMP constables who were shot more than a week earlier in central Saskatchewan have both died, an RCMP spokesman confirmed Sunday, saying their sacrifices would "never be forgotten."

Const. Robin Cameron, 29, and Const. Marc Bourdages, 26, were shot on July 7 while chasing a domestic violence suspect near Spiritwood, Sask. (RCMP) Const. Marc Bourdages, 26, and Const. Robin Cameron, 29, had been in critical condition in a Saskatoon hospital since the shooting on July 7 near the farming community of Mildred, about 140 kilometres west of Prince Albert.

RCMP spokesman Sgt. Brian Jones confirmed the deaths in a news conference in Saskatoon Sunday.

"We're all tremendously saddened by today's news," he said. "Mark and Robin were much loved.

"The sacrifice that both Robin and Mark have made in the line of duty will never be forgotten."

Curtis Alfred Dagenais, 41, has been charged with attempted murder for shots fired at a third RCMP officer at the scene, who returned fire. He is believed to be armed and dangerous.

Both officers leave children

The slain officers were both stationed at the RCMP detachment in Spiritwood, about 10 kilometres west of Mildred.

Cameron was a single mother with an 11-year-old girl. Earlier in the week, members of Cameron's family said they were grief-stricken that they may not have told her enough how proud they were for her successes, despite a turbulent childhood.

A member of the Beardy's and Okemis First Nation north of Saskatoon, Cameron was sent away to residential school as a child and dropped out of high school when she became pregnant. However, she was determined to pursue her lifelong dream of becoming an RCMP officer, returning to school and even getting eye surgery to qualify for the force. She had been with the force for five years.

Bourdages was originally from Saint-Eustache, Que. He was married to another RCMP officer at Spiritwood and they had a nine-month-old boy. He had been with the force for 5½ years.

Started with dispute between Dagenais, mother

The tragedy was sparked by a disagreement on the night of July 7 between Dagenais and his mother and sister at a home in Spiritwood.

Curtis Dagenais's mother, Elsie Dagenais, and other family members have alleged that the family dispute stemmed from a three-year divorce battle between her and the suspect's father, Arthur Dagenais, after decades of domestic abuse, including a property settlement.

Herb Jaster, the suspect's uncle on his mother's side, has said that on July 7, Curtis Dagenais found out that his mother was to be awarded half of the family farm in a divorce property settlement. He went to her house to confront his mother and sister, since he was expecting to get the farm for himself, Jaster said.

The argument escalated, police were called and Curtis Dagenais left in his truck.

Police gave chase, ending in the shooting near Mildred.

A massive police search was launched for the suspect but it was scaled back on July 13.

Suspect's father denied bail

Meanwhile, the suspect's father was denied bail on July 14 by a judge in North Battleford, Sask., who ruled his release would be a risk to public safety.

Judge Violet Meekma said Arthur Dagenais, 69, should not be released on bail because he has a history of animosity towards police. He was charged with obstruction of justice earlier in the week after returning to his farm, which police had ordered him to stay away from while they were searching for his son.

His next court appearance is July 26.


Is 25 years harsh enough for someone that kills two people/cops?

[charlie_g]

Has anyone asked about the quality of training these Mounties are receiving? How is it that incidents such as this, and Mayerthorpe are happening? How are multiple officers finding themselves in what eventually become fatal circumstances at the hands of a single suspect? What kind of tactics are used that allow this to happen? Are country hicks better tacticians than our national police force?

[talkinghead]

charlie_g
You seem to be on a bit of rampage today.
I think we should let folks morn these two people for at-least 48 hrs before we get going on who's done what wrong.

[Nark]

The reason shit likes this happens is because when the RCMP pull their pistols, and heaven forbid shoot some drugged up crazy asshole, Canada cries bloody murder and says they should take away their pistols (Aux. constables are prime example).

Now when they do encounter some asshole with a gun, they have Joe Public in the back of their head questioning what they're doing.

I say kill 'em first and ask questions later.






PS. Where do you think my moniker came from?

[2R]

Perhaps it is time to disarm our police entirely.
After all is it not hypocrisy to expect them to shoot to kill criminals.When we do not have capital punishment in this country.
Why do we expect the police to shoot and kill criminals in a spilt second decision .When we will not allow the highest courts in the land to come to a reasoned decision in a timely way with regards to crimninals ?

[Nark]

The only reason they are armed is because you (Canadians) are allowed to keep arms, knives, baseball bats, cars etc...

They don't shoot to kill like I'm trained too. They shoot to stop.
I see what you're saying, and as far as I see it, the criminal has more rights than the person protecting your streets.

[Wilbur]

Ah....because one is self defence and the other punishment?

As for RCMP training, I have several former co-workers who joined the RCMP after 5-10 years experience elsewhere in the justice system. They all report the training at depot is of the highest calibre.

They also all report that once sent to their detatchements, they were thrown to the wolves. The RCMP is signifcantly short staffed and their field training is not conducted as mandated. Only weeks out of depot and they are working by themselves, attending domestic calls alone, and working (in small towns) as the only Cst on shift at night; all things they were taught at depot not to do. One of the guys I know says he was told he was on his own because they didn't have enough experienced officers to go around, and his previous experience made him the least at risk. After six months of stumbling along by himself he quit.

This said, I know nothing of the circumstances leading to the shooting of these two Mounties and am not inferring their training is conected in any way.

[charlie_g]

Only weeks out of depot and they are working by themselves, attending domestic calls alone, and working (in small towns) as the only Cst on shift at night; all things they were taught at depot not to do.

Except, in the case of Mayerthorpe and Spiritwood it was not solitary officers.

[2R]

Training to double tap centle body mass is training to kill .You can flower it up by using politically correct terms like "stop" but the end result of a double tap with a 9mm to the central body mass is usually fatal.
Not quite as quick as double tapping CNS shooting bit not everone is that good . That level of effective marksmanship requires constant practice.
Bullets cost money.
The point about not having an armed police is if the courts do not have the stomach for killing why burden the police with it.

[niss]

When I worked at a military surplus store i had the pleasure of having quite a few conversations with cops from all over. I found out that none of them are trained to shoot to disarm, its only shoot to kill.

[goates]

Only weeks out of depot and they are working by themselves, attending domestic calls alone, and working (in small towns) as the only Cst on shift at night; all things they were taught at depot not to do.

Except, in the case of Mayerthorpe and Spiritwood it was not solitary officers.

During those specific cases, yes there were more then one or two Mounites there. However, how did things get so far along that someone is running from and/or shooting at them in the first place? Maybe if the RCMP had more constables in the field they could diffuse more problems long before they turn deadly. Especially domestic issues.

[charlie_g]

Only weeks out of depot and they are working by themselves, attending domestic calls alone, and working (in small towns) as the only Cst on shift at night; all things they were taught at depot not to do.

Except, in the case of Mayerthorpe and Spiritwood it was not solitary officers.

During those specific cases, yes there were more then one or two Mounites there. However, how did things get so far along that someone is running from and/or shooting at them in the first place? Maybe if the RCMP had more constables in the field they could diffuse more problems long before they turn deadly. Especially domestic issues.

I doubt that more constables would have changed the minds or actions of either of the two guys in these cases, who were both known police-haters.

What about the case of Dennis Strongquill (I think) in Virden, MB a few years back? Two mounties pull over a pickup truck with three people in it. Occupants start shooting at the cops. Cops pull away in their SUV and get chased down the highway and back into Virden, where the cops then decide to pull into the dead-end/no exit parking lot of their detachment, cornering themselves. Truck corners the cops, one cop shot dead.

So, first, the cops were chased, in a police vehicle, into town. Young kid in pickup manages to out-drive (or at least keep up to) the police driver, and then the police make the ill-advised move of pulling into a lot with no exits while being pursued by a pickup truck that has been shooting at them.... Interesting tactic. And, regardless of the circumstances, baffling. Simply baffling. And these were two veterans on the job that night.

[flaps40]

I had the pleasure of serving as an auxillary RCMP member in the mid 80's. It was shortly after they took away gun priviledges for aux members. The only difference in dress was that my hat did not have a yellow band around it. The members at the detachment recognized that people would never see that and not shoot you because you were only a volunter so they saw fit to allow me to carry the shotgun every car containes. Believe me a visible weapon has a calming effect. No I never had to point it a someone, would I, absolutely. As for driving skills there was a member there that had never been on gravel before he arrived in our town. It was only 2 trips with him and I never rode with him again. There are hundreds of kids that cut there teeth learning to handle a vehicle on gravel and dirt and to outdrive this particular member would have been a piece of cake. I wonder if they now receive training in that disipline. Our polititians need to untie the hands of our police force and allow them to treat these idiots in our society with brute force. It is the only language they understand. Canada has had liberal leadership for far to long. It's time to jerk the chain.

[Bookem Lou]

If a police officer is using their gun, it is to kill the individual. You will never see the police aiming for arms or legs. They are coming out with less lethal weapons now for disarming individuals armed with knives or clubs, but having said that, if someone with those weapons gets close enough, lethal force will be the next resort. Prior to tazers and pepper spray, your weapons were batons and handguns. It sure didn't leave you with many options if somebody had a bigger club than you. Also while I can't speak for the training the mounties are receiving, I know the training municipal police receive is top notch, including the driving. People flying in Boundary Bay in the fall will know about that.

Charlie G, would you have rather seen the police have a shootout on a populated street. While they may have been trying to get away, they also have the safety of the public to consider which is something the guys in the truck likely weren't thinking about.

[Wilbur]

OK 2R, let me spell it out for you. The Criminal Code allows the police to use as much force as necessary to defend themselves or others. Hence, they are allowed to use lethal force (shoot someone) when faced with a what they reasonably believe to be a deadly threat. This could be a gun, knife, other lethal weapon, or what turns out to be a garage door opener being held out like a gun on a dark night.

Anytime they fire their gun they are using lethal force. If they shoot their gun it is for the sole purpose of killing the perpetrator who is presenting a deadly threat. They shoot for the centre of the torso because it allows for the widest margin of error without missing the person, and is also very likey to inflict a severe or mortal wound.

If not faced with what they reasonably believe is a deadly threat, firing their gun is an excessive use of force and opens the police officer to any number of criminal charges. They are not permitted to shoot for arms and legs in an attempt to only wound. It is too likely they will inflict a mortal wound, or miss and hit a bystander. If only "wounding" a person is an adequate force response, they have other options at their disposal such as tasers, pepper spray, and batons that are considered "non-lethal" weapons.

The courts impose punishments long after the deed giving rise to it has been ended by the police. When they impose a sentence, nobody is at immediate risk of death or grievace bodily harm. There is no element of self defence.

There is no conflict between what the courts are allowed to do and what is expected of the police. Neither the courts or police are allowed to impose death as a punishment, but the police are allowed to use deadly force in defence of themselves or others. SELF DEFENCE is a basic human right, and in justifiable circumstances everyone in Canada is entitled to exercise it.

[Bookem Lou]

Wilbur, I couldn't have said it any better than that.

[2R]

Does anyone think that these criminals would be shooting at our police if they faced the hangmans noose for doing so .
Self defence may be the rationilzation for allowing police to discharge their weapons.But Wilbur i am not allowed to carry a hand gun for my self defence. So why should they . Civilians are only allowed reasonable force
The Law as defined by Parliament must offer protection.
Cadit Questo

[LH]

The RCMP started to change much of their training and SOP in 1965. This has continued over the years to the present time. They were warned internally, starting back in 1965 that the proposed changes were bad and would result in a ton of grief of all sorts.

In my training I was taught that I didn't pull my gun unless I intended to use it. When I did use it I was to shoot for the torso and not try to be Wyatt Earp and shoot for a smaller target. Reason being, that the adenalin is pumping and my accuracy will suffer. Therefore, I was taught to shoot and to kill. IF what I was facing DID NOT nessitate the perp dying for it, then I was to leave my revolver in it's case and call for more back-up. Whatever tha case, another life was not to be taken needlessly, nor was I to put mine in harm's way unnecessarily either.

RCMP training at that time involved 11 1/2 months in boot camp......it is now 3 months and then out to a Deatachment as a Cadet for a further 3 months for onsite training. The list of other changes made since '65 is as long as my forearm........some long over due, but many very, very bad.

Stopping a car involved pulling-up behind it, one Member went toward the stopped vehicle after the license plate was not6ed and passed on to a Central radio operator. The other Member stepped out and behind the other door with a .12 Ga pointed in the direction of the stopped vehicle. Should the Member approaching the car be shot then his partner was to unload the .12 Ga into the passenger compartment. On most occasions, few people will shoot an RCMP Member when they see him being covered by another Member and pointing a .12 Ga.


Sorry folks, but when you reduce training for ANYTHING from 11 1/2 months down to 3-6 months, something has got to give. Understaffed? The RCMP have being understaffed across Canada since the late 50's. Last count for BC was 700 understaff Manitoba has been understaffed an average of 400 Members since the early 60's. How understaffed they are has to do with the Provincial governments and what they feel their budgets can afford because they are footing a lot of the costs for the RCMP under contract. So somebody feels that there should be more RCMP Members at a certain location........then voice their complaints to the government in power in your particular province......not the RCMP or Ottawa.

[LH]

Perhaps the fact that Dennis Strongquill was left-handed and had problems releasing his magazine also played a contributing factor in his death.

[grimey]

They also all report that once sent to their detatchements, they were thrown to the wolves. The RCMP is signifcantly short staffed and their field training is not conducted as mandated. Only weeks out of depot and they are working by themselves, attending domestic calls alone, and working (in small towns) as the only Cst on shift at night; all things they were taught at depot not to do. One of the guys I know says he was told he was on his own because they didn't have enough experienced officers to go around, and his previous experience made him the least at risk. After six months of stumbling along by himself he quit.

There's a good article in Thursday's Winnipeg Free Press on the RCMP staff shortage. Norway House, MB, is understaffed by ~50%, and this was found to be one of the contributing factors to shooting death of a native there a few months ago. Northern Manitoba needs something like 25 more officers to be considered fully staffed. Other provinces likely have similar problems.

[LH]

Grimey ----the judge quoted oin the Free Press is obviously very young in his position or didn't do his research before he spoke. Norway House has ALWAYS been understaffed for the last 45 years and no more now than before. You would be hard-pressed to find ANY Detachment in Manitoba where the RCMP are not understaffed.......Norway House is just another one of those. The problem is muli-facetted and is not only a problem of manpower alone.

[flaps40]

I would need to say that part of the problem of short staffing is Gov induced. I attempted to join the RCMP force back in the 80's and was told during the interview that I needed to be "bilinqual". I am fluent in 3 languages. Surely there is a community somewhere in Canda that speaks predominantly one of those 3 but it was french or nothing back then. I would imagine that has now changed? I cannot think of a more honourable profession for someone who truly appreciates all they stand for.

[LH]

flaps 40 ----you have just addressed one of those many facets that I just spoke about. The same applies for the Canadian Military and many other agencies of the Federal government.

At one time not that many decades ago approximately 85% of the Members that manned Western Canadian RCMP Detachments were English-speaking and from the western provinces. The role has now completely reversed itself and the vast majority of the Memebers in western Canada have French as their mother tongue. This partly cam to be becuse over the years English-speaking Members could rise to the rank of S/Sgt and if they didn't wish to learn French, further advancement in rank stopped at that point. Soon as many saw what would happen well in advance and that there would be no change, they left the Force. As I said, the problems are very deep and multi-facetted.

[Bookem Lou]

Well I have no idea how big Virden is or how big the RCMP detachment is but if they pulled into their detachment parking lot, I can only assume that there were more officers inside. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Again I hadn't heard of this incident before and can't explain why they did what they did without knowing more.

[LH]

I know Virden well and they have more than two Members stationed at that place and always have. The numbers mean nothing in reality.

The Detachment I worked from had 3 Constables plus a Corporal. We were responsible for an area 500 miles by 100 miles, parts of Lakes Manitoba and Winnipeg to patrol by boat, five First Nations Reserves and a 500 mile night patrol in a crusier cruiser car in one direction was not out of the ordinary, for a frand total of approximately 50,000 people spread-out over that area. Finding somebody "at home" at the Detachment was not always the case with us either because of our area of responsibility and manpower. On top of all that, unless it was very local in town or some such duty, NEVER was there one Member alone and on patrol in a cruiser car, especially in a sparsely settled area or at night. All married Members served at least 5 years on a Detachment posting and during that time got to know or know of every single person or family within their area. Single Members would serve at least 3 years be fore transfer. The above situation was not singular in the slightest and was considered the "norm" for the vast majority of the Province.

Strongquill was a Constable of 20 years service and that poses questions as to "Why" because that is not the norm after that many years service. Why they did what they did also poses questions as you stated because based on that statement alone, it was a "greenhorn" and rookie deadly mistake. I have no information from the "inner sanctum" and therefore know only what I read also, but there are questions on my part that have never been addressed in public.