Curious as to who would:
A) Take a high paying turbine FO job with a sweet schedule, or take
B) The lower paying piston Captain job with lousy schedule.
Lifestyle/Pay vs. PIC Time
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Radio Phone
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Radio Phone
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PIC vs. Lifestyle
I'd take the PIC time.... You should be able to tough out a year or two of shitty pay when in the long run it'll all pay off.
You mean there is a choice?
Early this year i had a chance to take B and turned it down. Not enough money to live off and not nice employers. That particular company is no longer answering its phone. So now i have taken A and making a good living and i have a great schedule and what a cool airplane and each hour only counts as a half an hour and if i have one more captain tell me he is going to shoot the ils on my leg i think i will cry. 
As long as B does pay a decent living either one will work. Most companies do upgrade F/Os to captains but very few hire an F/O to be a captain.
Just do not take the job that does not pay enough to live off of because then you hurt everyone else and yourself when you want to move up to that good paying captain job.
ahramin
As long as B does pay a decent living either one will work. Most companies do upgrade F/Os to captains but very few hire an F/O to be a captain.
Just do not take the job that does not pay enough to live off of because then you hurt everyone else and yourself when you want to move up to that good paying captain job.
ahramin
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chiefpilot
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Take "A", as fast as you can, it's called seniority.
Once your in, then do your time in the right seat and gain the experience on type, if your lower command time, then they wait until you have around 800-1000 on type and give an upgrade if one opens, then you fly as a co-Captain until they feel your ready.
Answer "b" may keep you at that level for a very long time if nothing opens up at the company in answer "A", best to get while the getting is good!.
CP.
Once your in, then do your time in the right seat and gain the experience on type, if your lower command time, then they wait until you have around 800-1000 on type and give an upgrade if one opens, then you fly as a co-Captain until they feel your ready.
Answer "b" may keep you at that level for a very long time if nothing opens up at the company in answer "A", best to get while the getting is good!.
CP.
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Radio Phone
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Ah yes, the attitude of the modern ladder climbing pilot.
What ever happened to getting the BEST experience one can get, instead of flying the same routes in the same machine year after year as a co-joe until the lucky day when the CP hands you the reigns. Then you get the guys who have 4000hrs and no skills. After that, they become those CP's that look at a resume full of meaningfull, great, character building experience, and say "I'd rather hire that kid who's been pounding on my door for the past three years while working the rampo next door..." Ok ok, maybe that's a bit of a stretch - maybe not, I can think of a few who fit the mould nicely...
As I said before, given a choice take the experience, the rest will take care of itself. However, there is no choice anymore.
RP
What ever happened to getting the BEST experience one can get, instead of flying the same routes in the same machine year after year as a co-joe until the lucky day when the CP hands you the reigns. Then you get the guys who have 4000hrs and no skills. After that, they become those CP's that look at a resume full of meaningfull, great, character building experience, and say "I'd rather hire that kid who's been pounding on my door for the past three years while working the rampo next door..." Ok ok, maybe that's a bit of a stretch - maybe not, I can think of a few who fit the mould nicely...
As I said before, given a choice take the experience, the rest will take care of itself. However, there is no choice anymore.
RP
Ok then...how about this little pickle.
You're Left Seat at your present company. Downside is that the company does maybe 450 to 500 hours a year. You have an opportunity/avenue to possibly gain employment with another company, doing the same type of flying. Your position at the new company would be Right Seat, but about twice the flying.
You've already spent a year right seat to get you into this left seat. Do you make the move and go right seat again for a year with the new joint, in hopes that you can go left seat, JUST SO YOUR GET MORE HOURS??? Or be happy with what you're getting...both are the same class of airplane...just at a slower rate?
Huh? HUH??
You're Left Seat at your present company. Downside is that the company does maybe 450 to 500 hours a year. You have an opportunity/avenue to possibly gain employment with another company, doing the same type of flying. Your position at the new company would be Right Seat, but about twice the flying.
You've already spent a year right seat to get you into this left seat. Do you make the move and go right seat again for a year with the new joint, in hopes that you can go left seat, JUST SO YOUR GET MORE HOURS??? Or be happy with what you're getting...both are the same class of airplane...just at a slower rate?
Huh? HUH??
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bornagain1340
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It all depends on what you want out of your aviation career. Some people are perfectly happy with a good schedule and some decent cash with very little movement or progression.
Yeah PIC time is good, but living off of the super discounted "dented can" bin in the grocery store with little or no schedule only makes one dream of the choice that "could have been." (and dented spam doesn't belong in ANY food group by the way)
Regardless of what you choose though, stick with it. It'll all pay off in the end...or at least hope it will.
Cheers.
Yeah PIC time is good, but living off of the super discounted "dented can" bin in the grocery store with little or no schedule only makes one dream of the choice that "could have been." (and dented spam doesn't belong in ANY food group by the way)
Regardless of what you choose though, stick with it. It'll all pay off in the end...or at least hope it will.
Cheers.
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chiefpilot
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Radio Phone; 
at 4000 hours and First Officer on a Turbine, I should hope you have skill, ask West Jet what there minimums are and how much has to be command,
or rather, Turbine Commuter First Officer compared to Piston Command Air Taxi
And what is wrong with climbing the ladder?, is that not why people build time in the first place?.
CP.
at 4000 hours and First Officer on a Turbine, I should hope you have skill, ask West Jet what there minimums are and how much has to be command,or rather, Turbine Commuter First Officer compared to Piston Command Air Taxi
And what is wrong with climbing the ladder?, is that not why people build time in the first place?.
CP.
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Radio Phone
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CP - Hour building is of course important. But becomming an f/o asap as you stated earlier, is a sure way to build a mediocre pilot with limited skills.
As far as WJ goes, there are pilots there that I have flown many hours with and would NEVER send my familly with if it were a single pilot a/c, IFR or VFR, take your pick. Ex intstructor right seat guys. (No not all are that bad, but you get the idea) Turbines are the easiest thing to fly in the sky - regardless of how many hours you have. Hours mean very little.
Yes, there are companies where the type of work and equipment used is diverse enough to build a well rounded 4000hr pilot out of a 250hr wonder. Those, I'm sad to say, seem to be few and far between for many reasons - mostly that there is no work in this country. You roll your eyes at the 4000hr comment??? I could name you at least a dozen 4000hr folks who have skills that could be described as appalling. I'm not sure if you are a CP, sounds like it, so you MUST know what I'm talking about. If you are in Alberta, you should know what CMA's like north of Edmonton...
Quoting minimums for operations that fly the big iron is ridiculous. The vast majority of people flying for money in this country will never see jet type rating in their careers. That job's requirments are for SOP adhearing, company oriented men and women who end up doing more progamming than flying - which is perfectly FINE! It just does not apply to the average King Air Capt. slogging out a living in all the lousy places there are to fly in Canada. Totally different.
For a young pilot, building a solid base of decision making, hands and feet, and common sense is the most important thing. There are many jobs out there that pay quite well to bang around in a Navajo or the like, in places that are decent to live, and treat you well. Alberta does not seem to be that place anymore - unfortunate.
This desperate rush to the right seat does not breed highly skilled pilots, but the old alternative of the bush jobs seems to be dissappearing - again, unfortunate. I'm just not sure why you, an employer, would encourage guys to take the easy way. There is so much to be learned about life and yourself flying around single pilot getting jobs done and making mistakes on your own. Especially if you're really young kid, 19-23ish. Walking through the YYC terminal with three bars on for 22K/year doesn't teach you much. I hope you can at least agree with that much.
RP
As far as WJ goes, there are pilots there that I have flown many hours with and would NEVER send my familly with if it were a single pilot a/c, IFR or VFR, take your pick. Ex intstructor right seat guys. (No not all are that bad, but you get the idea) Turbines are the easiest thing to fly in the sky - regardless of how many hours you have. Hours mean very little.
Yes, there are companies where the type of work and equipment used is diverse enough to build a well rounded 4000hr pilot out of a 250hr wonder. Those, I'm sad to say, seem to be few and far between for many reasons - mostly that there is no work in this country. You roll your eyes at the 4000hr comment??? I could name you at least a dozen 4000hr folks who have skills that could be described as appalling. I'm not sure if you are a CP, sounds like it, so you MUST know what I'm talking about. If you are in Alberta, you should know what CMA's like north of Edmonton...
Quoting minimums for operations that fly the big iron is ridiculous. The vast majority of people flying for money in this country will never see jet type rating in their careers. That job's requirments are for SOP adhearing, company oriented men and women who end up doing more progamming than flying - which is perfectly FINE! It just does not apply to the average King Air Capt. slogging out a living in all the lousy places there are to fly in Canada. Totally different.
For a young pilot, building a solid base of decision making, hands and feet, and common sense is the most important thing. There are many jobs out there that pay quite well to bang around in a Navajo or the like, in places that are decent to live, and treat you well. Alberta does not seem to be that place anymore - unfortunate.
This desperate rush to the right seat does not breed highly skilled pilots, but the old alternative of the bush jobs seems to be dissappearing - again, unfortunate. I'm just not sure why you, an employer, would encourage guys to take the easy way. There is so much to be learned about life and yourself flying around single pilot getting jobs done and making mistakes on your own. Especially if you're really young kid, 19-23ish. Walking through the YYC terminal with three bars on for 22K/year doesn't teach you much. I hope you can at least agree with that much.
RP
This one seems easy to me. I agree with CP.
I don't think the question is which one will make the best pilot. The question is which will be better for ones career. The answer to that question is definitely b.
If you want to be the 'best' pilot you should probably jump from job to job. Fly some floats, fly some bush, fly some SPifr, fly anything you can get your hands on. However, I'm sure few people here are REALLY after the dream of being the 'best' pilot around. Most people want the bucks.
To move ahead in the airline game you'll need turbine time, and exerience in some larger aircraft. The pic is nice but after a while when you have 2500 piston pic, and no turbine time, you're no closer to that airline job, than the f/o with 2000 turbine. In fact in a lot of ways, he'd be well ahead of you.
I don't know what you're shooting for, a life as a mediocre B747 capt, or a really really really good Navajo pilot.
Your choice.
I don't think the question is which one will make the best pilot. The question is which will be better for ones career. The answer to that question is definitely b.
If you want to be the 'best' pilot you should probably jump from job to job. Fly some floats, fly some bush, fly some SPifr, fly anything you can get your hands on. However, I'm sure few people here are REALLY after the dream of being the 'best' pilot around. Most people want the bucks.
To move ahead in the airline game you'll need turbine time, and exerience in some larger aircraft. The pic is nice but after a while when you have 2500 piston pic, and no turbine time, you're no closer to that airline job, than the f/o with 2000 turbine. In fact in a lot of ways, he'd be well ahead of you.
I don't know what you're shooting for, a life as a mediocre B747 capt, or a really really really good Navajo pilot.
Your choice.
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Radio Phone
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RP,
You have a definite bitterness sound to your posts. At least it comes across that way.
There is more than one way to becoming a good pilot with a decent knowledge base and good decision making skills. I have flown with Capts from the single pilot bush enviornment you hold so high in regard and they were complete idiots in a crew enviornment. I have also flown with the guy that built time in the right seat and learned from those he/she worked with, and they were good pilots. I have also flown with the opposite of each above type.
I think the willingness to learn and a good attitude will lead to a quality pilot regardless of the route taken. Which route to take also depends what one wants as a career. IMHO
You have a definite bitterness sound to your posts. At least it comes across that way.
There is more than one way to becoming a good pilot with a decent knowledge base and good decision making skills. I have flown with Capts from the single pilot bush enviornment you hold so high in regard and they were complete idiots in a crew enviornment. I have also flown with the guy that built time in the right seat and learned from those he/she worked with, and they were good pilots. I have also flown with the opposite of each above type.
I think the willingness to learn and a good attitude will lead to a quality pilot regardless of the route taken. Which route to take also depends what one wants as a career. IMHO
Now let me add something I should have said first:
You already have 2800TT, of which 2500 is turbine FO and currently hold the high paying sweet scheduled FO job.
You would be staying within the same company, and your seniority number is not changing. Simply a change of seats and airplanes. And only for 6 months, then could go back to the FO job until a Captain spot opens up on the turbine.
You would be logging 30-40 hours a month FO vs. 100 hours a month as PIC on the twin piston.
The debate is lifestyle vs. PIC time. 1 week off 1 on vs. M-F 6am-830pm. $3600 difference in pay over the 6 month period.
Same answers?
You already have 2800TT, of which 2500 is turbine FO and currently hold the high paying sweet scheduled FO job.
You would be staying within the same company, and your seniority number is not changing. Simply a change of seats and airplanes. And only for 6 months, then could go back to the FO job until a Captain spot opens up on the turbine.
You would be logging 30-40 hours a month FO vs. 100 hours a month as PIC on the twin piston.
The debate is lifestyle vs. PIC time. 1 week off 1 on vs. M-F 6am-830pm. $3600 difference in pay over the 6 month period.
Same answers?
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chiefpilot
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Radio Phone;
"As far as WJ goes"
I agree, there are many there I have flown many hour's with, and yes, I'm surprised there at WJ, however, it's not about single pilot IFR, if it were, why the hell are we telling a 500 hr wonder to go for the left seat Navajo job, I sure as hell would have a hard time sending anyone with him/her 
, we both know that's exactly what is being said by the original comments.
Killing a bunch of people because the northern operator uses a low time pilot for the left seat with an even lower time pilot in the right, what exactly does this do to the flying skill's you speek of?, if the guy/gal has no experience to begin with then, what is throwing them into an airplane where the other guy (right seat)know's even less.
This is exactly why the insurance companies are starting to rob us blind.
I have flown the North, far North, deep North, North of 60 and 85% single pilot IFR Turbine aircraft, did I build character?, yes, a little hard not to, but I also had over 3500 hour of solid Commuter Airline flying as both a First Officer and then as a Captain before I went North, So why should a young kid 19-25 be thrown up there to fly because we all think it build's character and gob's of time?, what's wrong with doing it the other way when the opportunity arises, if he/she feels later on in life they want to "build character" then let them do it when they actualy have some time and experience under their belt.
The North is scattered with wreckage from these young "characture building" pilots.
So, all in all, the "rush to the right seat" does not build skilled pilots, but it does build a little more experienced ones.
As for Alberta, well I don't think this has been the place for a few years.
As I walk through YYC terminal I see alot of young F/O's that are pretty happy to be inside, away from the "tenting" and the wing covers and the engine tents and the long long extension cords (if there was even a place to plug it in) and away from the -45, -65 with the wind chill and the 2 and 3 am calls in the dead of winter and the, and the, and the, it goes on and on.
I do however agree that walking through the terminal with three bars and 22k a year doesn't teach you much, but walking into the aircraft with a higher time, more experienced and competent Captain who has done the time in the North and has flown the single pilot IFR and now has spent the last 4 years of his/her flying career passing this knowledge on to the young lass, a pretty good start in learning
.
"As far as WJ goes"
I agree, there are many there I have flown many hour's with, and yes, I'm surprised there at WJ, however, it's not about single pilot IFR, if it were, why the hell are we telling a 500 hr wonder to go for the left seat Navajo job, I sure as hell would have a hard time sending anyone with him/her , we both know that's exactly what is being said by the original comments.Killing a bunch of people because the northern operator uses a low time pilot for the left seat with an even lower time pilot in the right, what exactly does this do to the flying skill's you speek of?, if the guy/gal has no experience to begin with then, what is throwing them into an airplane where the other guy (right seat)know's even less.
This is exactly why the insurance companies are starting to rob us blind.
I have flown the North, far North, deep North, North of 60 and 85% single pilot IFR Turbine aircraft, did I build character?, yes, a little hard not to, but I also had over 3500 hour of solid Commuter Airline flying as both a First Officer and then as a Captain before I went North, So why should a young kid 19-25 be thrown up there to fly because we all think it build's character and gob's of time?, what's wrong with doing it the other way when the opportunity arises, if he/she feels later on in life they want to "build character" then let them do it when they actualy have some time and experience under their belt.
The North is scattered with wreckage from these young "characture building" pilots.
So, all in all, the "rush to the right seat" does not build skilled pilots, but it does build a little more experienced ones.
As for Alberta, well I don't think this has been the place for a few years.
As I walk through YYC terminal I see alot of young F/O's that are pretty happy to be inside, away from the "tenting" and the wing covers and the engine tents and the long long extension cords (if there was even a place to plug it in) and away from the -45, -65 with the wind chill and the 2 and 3 am calls in the dead of winter and the, and the, and the, it goes on and on.
I do however agree that walking through the terminal with three bars and 22k a year doesn't teach you much, but walking into the aircraft with a higher time, more experienced and competent Captain who has done the time in the North and has flown the single pilot IFR and now has spent the last 4 years of his/her flying career passing this knowledge on to the young lass, a pretty good start in learning
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Radio Phone
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Ok, I think I did lose sight of the original post. Oops. 500? Hmm, the SP IFR is probably not he best route.
I think we ended up talking about a variety of subjects here under an inappropriate banner. As to your last comments, if that young guy/gal was walking out to that a/c with the pilot you mentioned, I'd agree withyou every time. However, when they are walking out with a Capt. that came up the same way, who has never been exposed to all of those environments you talk about, how are they supposed to learn anything? It's a vicious circle. Blind leading the blind.
The next topic I think we were skirting was that of pilot quality. We all know there are many many pilots out there that should NOT be flying for a living. Unfortunatly, that's a human problem, many folks are doing things they shouldn't be doing, regardless of indusrty. That leads back to a really good thread "apres server crash."
I am an idealist when it comes to flying - if you haven't noticed! I like to see things done the right way, I'm always looking to learn more, experience more, and add to my own bag of tricks in order to be the most able pilot I can be. If I fly for 400 years, I won't get there. Unfortunately, there are many who don't apply themsleves in the same way - and I suppose I find the 250hr -to- right seat route an example of that. Yes, many good pilots come from that, but think of how much better they would be if they were put through a progression that builds skills slowly. Who knows, they might even enjoy it! No one is suggesting we throw pilots into situations that they are unable to handle. I too have seen many accidents in the North, and it is regretable that operaters push people.
But I still say, all things equal - a solid progression from SE - multi VFR- SP IFR - 2 crew etc etc makes most sense. I also realize that this is not possible in most cases, but if a person is given the choice, why would you go the f/o route?? There is some good money to be made in some of those jobs, and daily interaction with the clientel is interesting while building some customer service skills... Whoever suggested a guy with 2500 f/o is ahead of a guy with 2500 PIC, is on drugs. PIC has, and alway will be your friend.
Anyway, I see your point, I hope you see mine. Although it's late and I'm not sure I even see it anymore.
RP
I think we ended up talking about a variety of subjects here under an inappropriate banner. As to your last comments, if that young guy/gal was walking out to that a/c with the pilot you mentioned, I'd agree withyou every time. However, when they are walking out with a Capt. that came up the same way, who has never been exposed to all of those environments you talk about, how are they supposed to learn anything? It's a vicious circle. Blind leading the blind.
The next topic I think we were skirting was that of pilot quality. We all know there are many many pilots out there that should NOT be flying for a living. Unfortunatly, that's a human problem, many folks are doing things they shouldn't be doing, regardless of indusrty. That leads back to a really good thread "apres server crash."
I am an idealist when it comes to flying - if you haven't noticed! I like to see things done the right way, I'm always looking to learn more, experience more, and add to my own bag of tricks in order to be the most able pilot I can be. If I fly for 400 years, I won't get there. Unfortunately, there are many who don't apply themsleves in the same way - and I suppose I find the 250hr -to- right seat route an example of that. Yes, many good pilots come from that, but think of how much better they would be if they were put through a progression that builds skills slowly. Who knows, they might even enjoy it! No one is suggesting we throw pilots into situations that they are unable to handle. I too have seen many accidents in the North, and it is regretable that operaters push people.
But I still say, all things equal - a solid progression from SE - multi VFR- SP IFR - 2 crew etc etc makes most sense. I also realize that this is not possible in most cases, but if a person is given the choice, why would you go the f/o route?? There is some good money to be made in some of those jobs, and daily interaction with the clientel is interesting while building some customer service skills... Whoever suggested a guy with 2500 f/o is ahead of a guy with 2500 PIC, is on drugs. PIC has, and alway will be your friend.
Anyway, I see your point, I hope you see mine. Although it's late and I'm not sure I even see it anymore.
RP
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chiefpilot
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RP;
I more than see your point .
As a matter of fact, I agree very much, however, I think we need to make sure the original poster see's all the angles prior to making his/her own decision.
There is good and bad in both, I for one think the entire career path is full of these type's of decisions and they can not be taken lightly, either side, prior to making that decision.
Maybe, it depends on what type of pilot the person is, god know's I agree with the fact that there are many 4000 hr pilots out there that have no skills, I think I had everyone of them in sim 
., some came the F/O route and some came from the North.
CP.
I more than see your point
.As a matter of fact, I agree very much, however, I think we need to make sure the original poster see's all the angles prior to making his/her own decision.
There is good and bad in both, I for one think the entire career path is full of these type's of decisions and they can not be taken lightly, either side, prior to making that decision.
Maybe, it depends on what type of pilot the person is, god know's
I agree with the fact that there are many 4000 hr pilots out there that have no skills, I think I had everyone of them in sim ., some came the F/O route and some came from the North.CP.
I guess I'm the one on drugs.... thought they would've worn off by now.
With regard to the 2500f/o vs the 2500pic thing....
What I was saying was if someone's goal was 'the airlines' then the 2500 f/o may have a slight advantage.
Few airlines are looking for navajo time when you apply. Many are looking for 2crew time, turbine time, 'aircraft over xx lbs time'. I guess I could find a bunch of examples, but Cathay is the first one to pop in my head.
RP, I understand your point that the SPIFR time will definitely enhance his ability, but as far as his career, I'm not convinced.
But, back to the real point, he added something there. He already has 2800tt. That makes it a little more interesting. I think if that is the case, it might depend on the job.
Will you be able to get the old job/seniority back if you choose to return???
If not, you might be stuck pushing the ho for a while.
If it were me, and it's just my opinion, stay where you are. The p1 will come just now, and all will be well. You're paying the bills now, you're job sounds secure, and there is future advancement potential.
The way the industry is right now, you couldn't ask for much more.
If you want to be a 'better pilot' call Cat and take some float lessons.
With regard to the 2500f/o vs the 2500pic thing....
What I was saying was if someone's goal was 'the airlines' then the 2500 f/o may have a slight advantage.
Few airlines are looking for navajo time when you apply. Many are looking for 2crew time, turbine time, 'aircraft over xx lbs time'. I guess I could find a bunch of examples, but Cathay is the first one to pop in my head.
RP, I understand your point that the SPIFR time will definitely enhance his ability, but as far as his career, I'm not convinced.
But, back to the real point, he added something there. He already has 2800tt. That makes it a little more interesting. I think if that is the case, it might depend on the job.
Will you be able to get the old job/seniority back if you choose to return???
If not, you might be stuck pushing the ho for a while.
If it were me, and it's just my opinion, stay where you are. The p1 will come just now, and all will be well. You're paying the bills now, you're job sounds secure, and there is future advancement potential.
The way the industry is right now, you couldn't ask for much more.
If you want to be a 'better pilot' call Cat and take some float lessons.
