First year Embraer capt. pay rate

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:28 pm

Can anyone tell me what the wage is for 1st year EMJ captain (ie hired less than a year ago but not direct entry)

Hourly rate and approx. annual earnings would be great

Thx

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:28 pm

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... adian.html

Not sure if it's up to date though...

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:49 pm

It's up to date

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:37 pm

man that sucks....

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:54 pm

I don't believe that chart is accurate as the 1st and 2nd year EMJ CA positions show the flat pay rate and I believe if you upgrade you are off the flat pay after your 1st year. I am not sure what the formula rate pay is though.... around $110 rings a bell.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:07 am

yycflyguy wrote:I don't believe that chart is accurate as the 1st and 2nd year EMJ CA positions show the flat pay rate and I believe if you upgrade you are off the flat pay after your 1st year. I am not sure what the formula rate pay is though.... around $110 rings a bell.

No, but the pay tables in the Air Canada/ACPA Collective Agreement show no formula rate for the first 2 years. At the time it was negotiated, nobody thought that a pilot would be a captain within the first 2 years.

As it stands right now, there are no rates for an EMJ Captain in the first 2 years.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:41 am

I don't remember what they paid the direct entry RJ Captains (I don't think it was flat pay) They still show year 2 and year 3 pay rates for RJ Captain at about $85/hr and 86/hr. Year 3 EMJ pays $113.64/hr.

I hope they would be able to ammend they pay rates when they upgrade some 1 or 2 year guys to EMJ Captain. But knowing Air Canada, they probably won't. There is probably enough "recently hired" pilots interested in EMJ Captain even with the flat pay for 2 years.

TFE731 · Post by **TFE731** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:08 am

yycflyguy wrote:I don't believe that chart is accurate as the 1st and 2nd year EMJ CA positions show the flat pay rate and I believe if you upgrade you are off the flat pay after your 1st year. I am not sure what the formula rate pay is though.... around $110 rings a bell.

This is correct. Although I don't remember exactly if the $110 is right, but I seem to remember that after just ONE year of flat sal. you are making over a $100k if you make EMJ Capt. I'll see if I can dig out my newhire notes and find where I had this sourced.

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:36 am

bobcaygeon wrote:Can anyone tell me what the wage is for 1st year EMJ captain (ie hired less than a year ago but not direct entry)

Hourly rate and approx. annual earnings would be great

Thx

Give DC a call...............he knows.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:58 pm

When pilots went direct-entry Captain on the RJ, they were on flat pay; i.e. both Captains & F/Os newhires made the same amount in the first year, which was $29,900 at the time. The one F/A on the same flight made more than both of their salaries combined.

After the '98 strike, the first year flat pay was raised to $37,300 and a formula pay was introduced for 2nd year RJ Captain.

During CCAA, when rates were being negotiated for the EMJ, the 2nd year formula pay for EMJ Captains was not introduced because nobody thought that Air Canada would have 2nd year EMJ Captains.

Unfortunately, with the discounted salary of the EMJ -an aircraft which is 4,000lbs heavier than a DC-9- those who were on formula pay on other equipment types, chose not to bid the position, leaving over 50 open positions.

As such, first year pilots -on flat salary- bid the EMJ Captain slot thinking that it would get them off flat pay one year earlier. Again, as previously stated, there is no formula pay for the 2nd year EMJ Captain, however it is on the agenda for the Wage-Reopener (even though Air Canada says it shouldn't be there; an arbitrator will decide).

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:13 pm

Thanks for the info Martin.

What you are saying here regarding 2nd year Captain pay on the EMJ is in stark contrast to what the Union told our new hire class earlier in the year. We were told the fastest way off of flat pay was a Captain upgrade, which meant only 1 year on the flat pay, and the quickest route out of the position group was to bid the A320 as it is not a position aircraft.

So does it mean that the brave ones from our class who bid and were awarded CA EMJ will be making the same as the FO for 2 years??? Tell me again what the incentive is to go through a command course while on probation if the pay remains the same for 2 years? There will definately be some dissappointed guys that think they will get the increase soon.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:46 pm

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:11 pm

yycflyguy wrote: the quickest route out of the position group was to bid the A320 as it is not a position aircraft.

True, but for the first 2 years, you are still on flat pay. Just had a few newhires who bid the A320, thinking that they would also get off of flat pay. They are on flat pay for 2 years, and then will get the A320 pay rate.

Others that I have spoken to, were planning on remaining senior on the EMJ, and then bidding the A320 just prior to getting off flat pay.

Martin Tamme · Post by **Martin Tamme** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:36 pm

I just got an update as to the progress being made on the 2nd year EMJ Captain rate:

It will not be included as part of the wage re-opener, but rather will be negotiated separately, and will be resolved before any 2nd year captain slips into his new seat.

mduffy · Post by **mduffy** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:48 pm

Would it not be safe to assume that 'renegotiated' means - no change. As per the more recent wage re-opener?

Seems dissapointing that people should be so uncertain of their own wages.

WS739 · Post by **WS739** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:12 pm

How can a 777 captain go from 37K for the first year to $202K the second year..

If thats real thats the worst pay scale ive ever seen

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:31 am

Open your eyes buddy. All the first year wages are 37K. Pretty unlikely you will be a 777 capt your first year at AC. Maybe the koolaid has you beleiving someone would actually fly at 777 for 37k

It's about time · Post by **It's about time** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:34 am

WS739 wrote:How can a 777 captain go from 37K for the first year to $202K the second year..

If thats real thats the worst pay scale ive ever seen

Yes but it's obviously not reality. Look at any other airline in North America with widebodies - they all have flat 1 to 2 year rates for all seats and equip. I wouldn't get my shorts in a knot over it.

Incidently, re: EMJ CA pay......most/all newhires who bid the left seat are not showing training dates unitl at least next year so I don't think there will be any Year 1 CA to have to worry about the flat pay. Year 2 yes.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:01 am

WS739 wrote:How can a 777 captain go from 37K for the first year to $202K the second year..

If thats real thats the worst pay scale ive ever seen

How the hell is anyone going to be a 777 captain in 12 years, let alone 2 years.

Not a chance in hell, that's the answer. That part of your comment indicates a total lack of comprehension of the pay scale.

The 777 captain positions are the top 500 seniority numbers, of 3400 in the company, which equates to about 29-30 years, or more, of service to hold a 777 captain seat.

Aside from that obviously inane comment on the AC payscales, the payscales are bad after CCAA. The payscale is not good for a major carrier, but this a formula system that is probably out of date, but one that no group has been able to figure out a reasonable bridge from that system to some other. AC is unwilling to move on a system of transition, and in the scale of issues we need to deal with the change of a pay system is far down the list.

The people that would gain tremendously are the ones in the middle to bottom seniority, and the ones that would suffer are people that have waited to make the necessary sacrifices to move to larger equipment with the pay increments. The only way might be to phase in an incremented flat salary for everyone in the junior ranks now possibly.

TFE731 · Post by **TFE731** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:10 pm

Martin Tamme wrote:According to the Collective Agreement, all non-Jazz newhire pilots will have their service date at the earliest of the following:

1) Once they completed their line-check
2) 90 days from the date-of-hire
3) Service Date of any pilot junior to them

I have also heard this and have been trying to find it in our agreement. Perhaps you could direct me in the right direction.

Regards.

29chev · Post by **29chev** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:09 pm

I think what WS739 does not understand is when you go Capt at AC you do not start at year one of the Capt's pay scale you go to what ever year you are in for eg. if you are a 10 year F/O and then bid and get emj or 320 Capt you go straight to 10th year Capts pay for that aircraft...

BALLB · Post by **BALLB** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:18 pm

Martin Tamme incorrectly implied that there is "formula pay" for the EMJ Captains. This is categorically not the case. The EMJ is not part of the formula pay structure. The pay rates for the EMJ are straight hourly rates that increase via a 12 year wage progression. The weight of the EMJ, its speed, whether a trip is flown overseas, at night or during the day are not factors that determine an EMJ Captains hourly pay rate. By degrees the airline and its pilot's union have been moving junior equipment and junior pilots off the formula pay system. The senior equipment and the senior pilot's who fly the senior equipment still have their compensation determined under the formula pay system.

balls · Post by **balls** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:15 pm

BALLB wrote:Martin Tamme incorrectly implied that there is "formula pay" for the EMJ Captains. This is categorically not the case. The EMJ is not part of the formula pay structure. The pay rates for the EMJ are straight hourly rates that increase via a 12 year wage progression. The weight of the EMJ, its speed, whether a trip is flown overseas, at night or during the day are not factors that determine an EMJ Captains hourly pay rate. By degrees the airline and its pilot's union have been moving junior equipment and junior pilots off the formula pay system. The senior equipment and the senior pilot's who fly the senior equipment still have their compensation determined under the formula pay system.

How was Martin incorrect in that regard? EMJ is part of the overall system - which IS formula pay, not a status/seniority pay structure. Granted the formula method, and calculations, have been corrupted and bent considerably, but it is still part of the "formula" system through which you will move as an AC pilot.

BALLB · Post by **BALLB** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:13 pm

The EMJ Captain's remuneration is not part of the formula pay system contained within the Air Canada/ACPA Collective Agreement. The EMJ Captains are paid a flat hourly rate that is not derived in any way based upon aircraft weight, speed, route, day or night flying or the base hourly rate. These components make up the formula pay structure on the 319/320/321, 767, 787, 330/340 and the 777.

The EMJ Captain's pay is a flat hourly rate that increases annually based upon the pilot's years of service. The wage grid has 12 levels. The 12th level coinciding with the maximum hourly rate for an EMJ Captain. These hourly rates are set out in a table in the original MOA and are specifically excluded from the formula pay system that is used to derive the rates of pay for the other mainline fleet types.

If you can show me what formula is used to derive the hourly rate currently paid to EMJ Captains I would appreciate it. There is none that I can see. It appears to be a flat hourly rate not tied to aircraft weight, speed, day or night flying, navaid or overseas components that make up what is commonly referred to as formula pay.

I would also add that simply because something cannot be described as "Status/Seniority" pay as you call it, does not mean that it is by default formula pay.

bamboo · Post by **bamboo** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:02 am

For all the Air Canada new hires. Can you tell me what the amount was on your last pay stub? Not what you think you should get or what you think you might get next pay, but your LAST pay. How about this.... List the amount, how many years with AC, and equip you fly. This should clear up a little confusion.

First year Embraer capt. pay rate

First year Embraer capt. pay rate

Re: First year Embraer capt. pay rate

Correction

Re: Correction