I like hearing about traffic clearing at the end...

[Doc]

Just dont give me "traffic 11 o'clock" when it's only 6:30! I wear a digital watch....but I guess, it's 11:00 o'clock somewhere...pour me something tall and strong....

[lilfssister]

Sorry about my spelling.....it was really late. And I didn't really get what "nebie" was, I didn't mean to be disrespectful (prolly spelt that wrong as well?)
And, lilfssister, I'll take your suggestion, and start writing letters...hope my spell check works! I'll just name dates and places, and hope the head guys at FSS listen to the tapes?

Can pretty much be positive that any complaint will have recordings given a listen by the supervisor at the FSS. Much as some of you like to bash NC's "Customer Service" the managers make sure all complaints are investigated.

[lilfssister]

_legs..."If I was controlling and never had radar, I'd badger you too." Kewl, except you are NOT controllers....FSS is to ADVISE. By badgering me, you would be tying up the freq. The advise had been given....now STFU! These FSS guys would be amazed how many places we fly WITHOUT their "advice" and never hit anything?????? Now, how DO we do this??? We do it by being allowed to "sort things out with the other pilot" without "help" from someone sitting inside a building in YWG, who "thinks" he should "control" us. Start advising....that's your job! We are under VFR...look it up....it means we maintain seperation through the use of the "mark 1" eyeball!

Unfortunately, if you don't at some point say "We have the traffic". or "We're looking for the traffic and slowing to accomodate them", or something to that effect, our MANOPS requires us to "badger" you until you acknowledge that you have the traffic, or don't have it but are aware you need to do something to accomodate it, or avoid it. Believe me, MOST of us would like to say as little as possible to some of you grumpy old "not newbies", Doc.

[Doc]

lilfssister, dont get me wrong here...I'm NOT trying to get anybody in any kind of trouble. These guys are doing their jobs as outlined in their MANOPS. I'm kewl with that. They do a great job. It's just I dont think their job should be to "control", and some do. I dont want to trade paint anmore than the next guy....I just think pilots should be able to get a word in edgewise and avoid each other without listening to advisories of clearing traffic, or traffic clearing the other end of the zone...is all. Way too much chatter.
What's wrong with, if an aircraft is going north, to advise him of traffic comming from the north? He dowen't need to hear about the traffic heading south? Is this so hard?

YOUR JOB IS NOT TO BADGER, BUT TO ADVISE!!

[bigfssguy]

lilfssister, dont get me wrong here...I'm NOT trying to get anybody in any kind of trouble. These guys are doing their jobs as outlined in their MANOPS. I'm kewl with that. They do a great job. It's just I dont think their job should be to "control", and some do. I dont want to trade paint anmore than the next guy....I just think pilots should be able to get a word in edgewise and avoid each other without listening to advisories of clearing traffic, or traffic clearing the other end of the zone...is all. Way too much chatter.
What's wrong with, if an aircraft is going north, to advise him of traffic comming from the north? He dowen't need to hear about the traffic heading south? Is this so hard?

YOUR JOB IS NOT TO BADGER, BUT TO ADVISE!!

In this instance someone isn;t doing there job. We are to only provide traffic pertinent to an aircrafts flight path. If we give an inbound or outbound aircraft every piece of traffic out there then we might as well be a CAR's station.

We recieve a we bit more training and therefore should provide a higher level of service. I have seen other FSS that aren;t comfortable with the situation resort to passing everything there fore not fogeting anyhting but thats just wrong. If someone does this all it accomplishes is having the pilot tune out the FSS working, which can become a safety issue!

[lilfssister]

What big guy said..if you feel it's a safety issue...report it via 1=800 or manager.

[scrambled_legs]

_legs..yup. Must be voices in my head. For sure. That's it! When an MNR pilot reports two miles out, while we're just entering the zone, he has no idea whre he is. All pilots are simply idiots wandering blindly around the sky, just waiting to be "guided" by FSS. Thanks for straighting that out for me. I must wonder how I've ever managed to survive for many years, flying in and out of absolute shit-holes all over the north with no helping hand from remote FSS stations??

Now you're starting to get it. Controllers have a thing where they control as though all pilots are complete morons. The minute you start relying on pilots and not controlling in this manner, a complete moron pilot will fly into your field and screw you over big time. You have no idea how brutal some of the calls are until you sit upstairs day after day with radar, knowing their exact position. I've had Airbus pilots call up over the beacon when they were passing a GPS fix 5 miles out of the zone. I've had S61 pilots told to depart in a specific direction and they depart in the exact opposite. I've had numerous pilots depart the runway in the wrong direction. Pilots told to taxi to position and they take off. Pilots saying they're west when they're east, departing north and they're flying south.

You should never rely on a pilots report. Use it as a reference and if it doesn't appear to be correct then start moving up on your seat and asking for an update. No FSS arent' controlling you but when the tanker didn't appear to be directly in front of you like he reported, he can go to the tanker and ask him his current position. Who knows maybe he said he was 1-2 miles out and there's another plane in that area. Asking if you have him in sight is not controlling, asking the other plane for another position report is not controlling, this is simply saving your bitter ass.

Your other comments about irrelevant traffic makes sense and I agree with you, but in this scenario, you're off base. This aircraft that might be low and slow and instead of 2 back he's just taking a stab at the distance and is actually 4 back and you're coming down right on top of him.

[lilfssister]

Doc, I have worked with FSS (as well as some pilots) who seem to have no shut-off switch on their mouths, so I do understand where you're coming from in regards to no room to get a word in edgewise.

Myself- I like to keep it short and sweet, and the busier it is, the shorter the better as long as everything required is passed and acknowledged. Seems like someone needs a refresher on what is pertinent traffic wherever that is that you're talking about?

And what scrambled legs said: you can't always be sure the position reports given are totally accurate. Had a lot of the same situations mentioned in that post, as well. Once, I watched a guy taxi for a runway 35 departure, with a clearance off runway 17. Despite me politely suggesting twice he was taxiing for the wrong end of the runway, that he would be breaking his clearance if he took off from the other end, he INSISTED he was taxiing for runway 17. Until he got to the numbers, mumbled something about backtracking to runway position runway 17, I was an idiot, judging by the tone of his replies.

(I can't believe legs and I agree on something )

[scrambled_legs]

(I can't believe legs and I agree on something )

Well in that case... Doc you are 100% correct. That FSS had no right to question whether or not you had the traffic right in front of you in sight. They should be fired and lose both pinky fingers. Why the pinky? Cause FSS are too polite to give NC the middle finger but they might still try and give them the pinky finger after being let go.

[lilfssister]

(I can't believe legs and I agree on something )

Well in that case... Doc you are 100% correct. That FSS had no right to question whether or not you had the traffic right in front of you in sight. They should be fired and lose both pinky fingers. Why the pinky? Cause FSS are too polite to give NC the middle finger but they might still try and give them the pinky finger after being let go.

You're a riot, Alice

[FREEFALL]

Just dont give me "traffic 11 o'clock" when it's only 6:30! I wear a digital watch....but I guess, it's 11:00 o'clock somewhere...pour me something tall and strong....

You can be a real twat. I think the specialict should have written you up for solving your own problems:

YHD, the other day...
Me...."tanker %$^, what's your altitude?"
Tanker...."We're at 3500, three miles out for 29."
Me...."Thanks, we'll follow you in." This is where this should have ended, but NO, it went on, and on, and on!
FSS..."The tanker is at 3500, three miles."
Me..."We heard him..."
FSS...."Are you planning number two?"
Me..."He's ahead of us, and yes, we're number two.."
FSS...."Do you have the tanker in sight?"
Me..."No, but he's ahead of us!"
FSS..."I need to know you have him in sight...."
Me...."We're five back, and he called THREE back, so we'll follow him..."
FSS..."Do you have the tanker in ight???"
Tanker....Tanker %^$, down and clear..."
Me...We're two finial, call you down and clear..."

CAR's General MF Reporting Requirements

602.98
(1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.

(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be

(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or

(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.

[cyyz]

Just dont give me "traffic 11 o'clock" when it's only 6:30! I wear a digital watch....but I guess, it's 11:00 o'clock somewhere...pour me something tall and strong....

You can be a real twat. I think the specialict should have written you up for solving your own problems:

See there they go again, plannning on writing someone up...

Now since everyone really missed the key point IMO of Doc's post, He had his info, and then FSS filled the frequency, so now another tanker, KA, whatever is comming into the same zone(HYPOTHTICALLYsp), can't talk on freq because it's being congested by two lads, and now the new guy crashes into doc, because he couldn't report, the fss-er was so busy making sure doc could see the first guy on final, so now we have two dead pilots, two planes down oh and yeah, to bad doc didn't see the first tanker, nevermind the real issue at hand... <bravo>

[cyyz]

Seems like someone needs a refresher on what is pertinent traffic wherever that is that you're talking about?

See my example above, because the two of them were rambling, pertinent traffic wasn't(might not have been) given, because they're both rambling about the stupid tanker in the front, the lear didn't get a chance to make a call, didn't know where doc was either and crashy, and I guess the VFR pilots would be the ones getting blamed for the mishap... =)

[cyyz]

Seems like someone needs a refresher on what is pertinent traffic wherever that is that you're talking about?

See my example above, because the two of them were rambling, pertinent traffic wasn't(might not have been) given, because they're both rambling about the stupid tanker in the front, the lear didn't get a chance to make a call, didn't know where doc was either and crashy, and I guess the VFR pilots would be the ones getting blamed for the mishap... =)

As was mentioned before, if you are in a King Air and two miles in trail of one of the most easily identifiable types flying (i.e. a giant red and yellow tanker against a green forest canopy), and have approx one minute until you run him over one mile short of the field, then FSS had better damn well be concerned about why you don't have the traffic visual.

No they shouldn't be concerned, because the faster plane # 3 is going to hit #2, #1 tanker is safe as can be, 2 miles final when he spoke to doc, and in the minute fss was rambling with doc(5 back) the tanker was already over the numbers and they were still argueing about it and the tanker was off the active....

In all that time of ranting, a 3rd plane could have come in the zone and hit doc, because the 3rd guy can't make a call(people are rambling), he doesn't know anything about doc because everyone is rambling about a tanker on the runway, and the fsser is to busy to notice the 3rd plane because he's so worried, strung up about the tanker and doc....

His entire point was not that fss was rambling about the tanker but the fact that they were rambling, and the rambling could have caused a problem, because new traffic comming in could be hitting doc. And as mentioned even if Doc did crash into the tanker you think the FSSer is gonna lose their job for it??? No, and if new traffic is in the zone and hits the doc, is the fsser gonna get fired? No... Exactly....

[cyyz]

I'm not endorsing rambling. But this sounds like a case where overtaking traffic needs to have visual on someone they're about to run over.

Ahhh, but that's just it doc called that he'd "follow," so he wouldn't be overtaking the tanker, because he'd use airmanship slow down, orbits, s turns or what have you to make sure he's gonna "follow," and even if doc was 1/2 mile final of the runway, if the tanker hadn't called on and off yet, I'm gonna go out on limb here(he wouldn't get that close in the first place) but I'm gonna guess doc would start an overshoot or start some precautionary actions again, because it wouldn't make sense to be over the numbers when you're #2 and #1 is somewhere in front of you magically....

And again, I doubt the MNR guy or Doc, are that daft that they'd let themselves get hurt, and even if #3 wasn't there, and it was just doc and the tanker, the congestion, what if doc or the tanker wanted to make a call "oh shit, break off, turn" or what have you, they can't because doc and fss guy are on the frequency rambling...

Think doc got irritated and wanted to post his rant here, but he stated he's #2, he can't see him, but he'll do all in his powers to be #2, and being asked repeatedly "do you see him" and repeatedly going "no" is pointless. apart from irritating everyone on the frequency it blocks the frequency... Bad combination.

Grimey said it best,

Without knowing more about the traffic level at the time, and the tools available to the specialist, though, it's hard to say if they were wasting frequency time or not. There are certainly cases I've heard where specialists and pilots do waste time when they can't afford to, though. Often in ways much more useless than this. ("hey, how ya doing, see the game last night?")

Think this is just as bad as the last post with the Air Canada capt. ranting about the controllers, name and number.

Think both sides have issues, and I'm sure both sides have their own opinion and idea and are thinking they're in the right... and it will probably come down to one day a midair because two people were "at it."

[ahramin]

I think the specialict should have written you up for solving your own problems:

CAR's General MF Reporting Requirements

602.98
(1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.

(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be

(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or

(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.

And yet again we have some flight service specialist threatening to write up a pilot for following the CARs. Please note that it says every report PURSUANT TO THIS DIVISION. The applicable part of the division would be arrivals:

602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.

So where in the above list does getting altitude information from another aircraft show up? Nowhere. So we can sort each other out all day long on the MF frequency without mentioning Radio and not break any rules. The sooner FSS realises that we can sort each other out much quicker and with far less chatter than having some amateur air traffic controller try their hand at it the better off everyone will be.

[Cap'n P8]

Ahramin, you beat me to the punch...and nailed it squarely on the head!

[scrambled_legs]

I'm not endorsing rambling. But this sounds like a case where overtaking traffic needs to have visual on someone they're about to run over.

Ahhh, but that's just it doc called that he'd "follow," so he wouldn't be overtaking the tanker, because he'd use airmanship slow down, orbits, s turns or what have you to make sure he's gonna "follow,"....

How the hell does he follow something that he can't see????

The whole point is that a pilot report is not radar, if the FSS can't see the planes out the window, which is possible, seeing as some stations can't see the approach for half the runways, then how do we know where the tanker really is? He says he's 2 final but that is not a verified report only a reference. If he's using a VNC and visual for that distance guestimation, and is low and fast, he could easily be mistaking his 2 miles for 5 and be right under Doc.

The FSS never had Doc's traffic, Doc never had his traffic, so the FSS will now go to the tanker and ask his position again. Who knows maybe he heard wrong or maybe the tanker will look around and realise he's really five final. If he continually keeps asking DOC if he has his traffic yet without asking for another report from the tanker, then yes that is a bonehead move. To say that three visual reports ties up the frequency so much that it endangers everyone near the field is ridiculous.

[ahramin]

Perhaps three calls would not pose a danger. FSS constantly tying up the frequency over and over again like this does pose a danger. Yes, they have procedures to follow, one of those procedures should be to minimize tying up the frequency.

[Doc]

_legs...we follow other traffic up north that we never see! If the guy is two miles back, and we are four or five, we follow him in...we dont HAVE to see him...it is NOT a legal requirement to actually SEE an aircraft you are following! We (tanker pilots and myself) know the area we are operationg in better than ANY FSS "specialist" sitting on his throne in a dark basement in YWG!! If we call two out, we ARE TWO out....live with it! And before you take collections to buy me a white cane.....keep in mind that "tankers" can be twin Otters, and Turbo Beavers...not just CL215's. This one was a Twin Otter. Again...FSS IS THERE TO ADVISE...and that's their job. Once we have been advised, why not let us sort it out??? Another BIG surprise may be....we can actuall HEAR everything our traffic says on the radio. We dont need you to relay it to us. When a guy calls "downwind" we KNOW he's on downwind, and we DONT need that little tidbit of information relayed to us by FSS. Another shocker...if I'm following "slower" traffic...I can, and do, slow down! The Beech cruises at 240-260, but we can fly an approach to follow a tanker at 120.

[grimey]

Doc, the specialist can't assume that you know what you're doing. You know where you are, and report that accurately on the MF or on 126.7. The tanker likely does too. But like legs and I already said, there's a not-so-insignificant minority of pilots who don't have a clue where they actually are once they get airborne, or at least they can't relay that info accurately over the radio. As far as just relaying position reports by FSS, yea, I know it can get annoying. But if you're talking to center or company as well, you might miss it. If the guy is on the ground, he may be in a "dead" spot as far as your reception goes. It doesn't sound like that could have been the case here (the second one obviously wasn't), but there are reasons behind the things we do that annoy the hell out of you. Most of the time, anyway.

[Doc]

I'm not asking him to "assume" anything. Just ADVISE. But, that's too much to ask, I guess. Oh well, I've left the building on this one.
Doc

[scrambled_legs]

Doc, tanker pilots are not neccessarily local pilots. They fly where the fires are. If there are bad fires three provinces over then they fly there. If there's no fires down south and Canada is getting hit hard, then who know's he might even be a Yank flying in Canada for the first time. You might know this pilot personally and know that he's 100% right all the time, but the FSS doesn't know that and has to assume the worst.

Like I said before, you can rely on pilot reports and 90% or more of the time you'll be safe. To complain about someone forcing you to look out the window and ensure that a pilot is where he reported to be in order to be 100% safe, is not a bad thing.

As far as following without visual, that is an impossibility. Try jumping in a cab and saying Follow that blue car 1 block ahead. He'll say where is he? You say just follow him! He'll say is he speeding up, slowing down, in the right lane, or in the left? How the hell can I follow him if I can't see him!!! You can't use "airmanship" as CYYZ stated, to follow something you can't see. You are not following, you are simply continuing inbound in the hope that you are still behind him and following him.

Just to add something for those out there that believe pilots that have reached a certain level or are using quality equipment will never be somewhere and think they're somewhere else, please use some common sense and realise that everyone messes up somewhat regularly. I seem to recall an Airbus about to touch down in Vernon when they were intending to land in Kelowna. I also recall a LJ35 landing on a drag strip that they believed was their destination airport. These are just 2 high profile major mistakes that everyone has heard about. Imagine if people this qualified and using equipment this advanced, can make this big of a mistake, just think what kind of mistakes controllers/fss see on a daily basis that aren't big enough for the public to hear about. I don't know how else to convince you but never trust a pilot report without verifying that he's telling the truth. Look out the window, if you don't see anything then keep looking and eventually ask for an update.

[BTD]

Freefall brought up a point i was thinking about a few posts back. Shouldn't all calls at an airport with a FSS groundstation at an MF be addressed to the ground station?

Regardless of that, we pilots study and are taught right from the beginning that seperation anytime when VFR is our responsibility. Are FSS specialists taught it is theirs? If so something needs to be changed because you can't have two seperate parties responsible for the same thing.

Also it comes back to Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. While looking for the traffic is important there is no reason to be pestered. The pilot will tell you when he has the traffic. If he says no everytime hes asked what is the response from FSS? Continue asking? Suggest a go around? Nothing? They all amount to Nothing in the end anyway.

Controllers don't even ask that often.

That being said I think FSS specialists are great and very helpful. And sure go ahead and ask the tanker where he is again to get better info for the guy following behind, but repeatdly asking

Do you see him?

How about now...do you see him now? Its not helping anyone.

Keep in mind I'm going only on the info in this thread.

BTD

[sweetgal]

FYI as far as I know you cannot enter the zone prior to contacting the FSS on the MF. So if the frequency is congested due to a conflict, and someone else wanting to enter the zone cannot get a word in, that 3rd party has to remain outside the zone. So no potential hazard. And if a 3rd party does "show up" without making the mandatory reports, you can be sure the FSS will file an AOR. Because they have to. Tapes are randomly checked at audits and if something like that is not AOR'd then the FSS gets in trouble. Believe me, we don't enjoy doing the paper work. But it's part of our duties.