Martin Tamme re: Teplitsky

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DLB
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Post by DLB »

Not to nitpick, but a job doesnt have to be self-regulating and/or self-licensing to be considered a profession; it has to involve 'advanced learning'. But you are right, pilots arent professionals as defined by the dictionary. In fact bankers, who categorize all jobs, consider us to be 'semi-professional'.
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balls
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Post by balls »

DLB wrote:Not to nitpick, but a job doesnt have to be self-regulating and/or self-licensing to be considered a profession; it has to involve 'advanced learning'. But you are right, pilots arent professionals as defined by the dictionary. In fact bankers, who categorize all jobs, consider us to be 'semi-professional'.
Yes, you are nitpicking. I was too. I was attempting to direct the attention to the classic term of "professional" from my gradeschool educaiton about 50 years ago.

I was also attempting to discern if I had anything to offer in the discussion here. My disillusionment with the new crop, and the industry as a whole, makes me feel that I probably do not.

I was attempting to see whether I had the energy to contribute to the discussions any more, and whether it was worth that effort. I have a few months to go, after a few decades flying, so I'm thinking that I'll let the vested interested people scrap about who is more entitled. There is a severe lack of perspective of many issues related to this industry, with very little background of experience from many of the commentators.

The youngest people into this industry, who were born when I had about 15 or 20 years of flying experience, know they are the most entitled, and will let you know at every turn. If they aren't promoted to 340 skipper in a year or two they are whining about the everytihng. They will let me know that they can do the job far better than I can and know far more than I do.

I certainly get that impression on this forum!
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EyeOh
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Post by EyeOh »

Ironically, outside of the cockpit we (all Pilots, not just ALPA vs. ACPA) have always had some of the worst CRM in the professional world. Would lawyers or Dr.'s pay to work or undercut each other at the knees for a job? Are they any more in demand? Maybe on average, but we are certainly in demand right now and we are FARKING IT UP!
Sometimes I think maybe a non-union company would be the way to go, over this bickering. However, then I just see that they just haven't HAD to fight yet. And they will. And it will be equally ugly. This is because they haven’t figured it out yet either. Flying should not equal prostitution or cannibalism. If you get in a bidding war that is going DOWN, go work at Dennys. I promise your career will be far more fulfilling.
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abflyguy
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Post by abflyguy »

I find it amazing that ACPA says they want to work together and yet when it comes to negotiating their new contract they will screw Jazz pilots if necessary. By them having it written that Jazz must always decrease in pilots at the same rate as them they allowing guys who have sacrificed a lot for their jobs to get laid off. Pilots that make less and work more would lose their jobs because of this. It seems the only reason that ACPA wants to start a Association is to see what they can get out of it, it has nothing to do with anyone else as the idea above shows.
Jazz and Air Canada are seperate companies and they should not have the right to stipulate what occurs with pilots at a seperate company, especially if it happens to be making money and they are not.
I guess misery likes company and that is why they put it in there.
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Traf
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Post by Traf »

Jazz and Air Canada are seperate companies and they should not have the right to stipulate what occurs with pilots at a seperate company, especially if it happens to be making money and they are not.
I guess misery likes company and that is why they put it in there.
I can only assume that you are a Jazz pilot by your comments. It does however always baffle me when I hear this argument. There is an old attitude that AC is stopping us from being this great fantastic airline. Maybe so, but everytime this argument is made, they seem to forget that that very same argument could be made for GGN, CMA, Bearskin, Voyageur etc... They could all easily spool up a D8 operation for AC, and it might take a while, but maybe even an RJ or two. Now, what would your argument be to that? They are too inexperienced? Kinda sounds like "AC jets are flown by AC pilots".

The point I am trying to make is that what is good for the goose, is good for the gander and if Jazz thinks that scope clauses are crushing their ability to be a super ailrine, think again. It is scope that is currently keeping the T3s from taking all the turboprop flying from us and making us half of what we are at the current time. It goes both ways and I would sooner work for more money flying the RJ and D8s than having to go even lower to fly an EMB or 320 because all our dashes have gone to the T3s.
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Dockjock
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Post by Dockjock »

I'm as much a capitalist as the next guy, DLB, but I have a problem with purely letting the market decide about my career and working conditions- when the supply side of that market is controlled by the government. It is unwise to ignore the fact that while the market is deciding...the "other" side is doing their best to make it decide in their favour, while we do nothing. But of course, you're an owner aren't you, so your bias is clear.

A professional pilot association at it's core doesn't need to be, nor should it be, about pilot pay though. It should be about our professional responsibility for the safety of our aircraft and passengers- everything else stems from that. Let unions and as you said, "the market" worry about pay. From that perspective, I find in embarassing that there are some out there that are that oppose higher training and educational standards as a general concept.

I was talking to my realtor last week and we got onto the topic of professionalism and qualifications. A couple years back there was a huge uproar in the real estate community because of a movement by some agents to restrict entry into the profession to high school graduates only. Many opposed this restriction as too onerous!
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Jeremy Kent
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Post by Jeremy Kent »

balls wrote:My disillusionment with the new crop, and the industry as a whole, makes me feel that I probably do not... The youngest people into this industry, who were born when I had about 15 or 20 years of flying experience, know they are the most entitled, and will let you know at every turn. If they aren't promoted to 340 skipper in a year or two they are whining about the everytihng. They will let me know that they can do the job far better than I can and know far more than I do.
I don't think that's fair, balls. I know that people go a little squirrelly on this forum and the bickering over everything from trivialities to big issues is as prolific as it is childish... but a blanket statement condemning an entire generation of pilots is a bit much, wouldn't you say? For having spent an awful lot of time amongst the very people you're describing (and being one!!), I have yet to see the attitude you describe.
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Long Keel
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Post by Long Keel »

There has been some great discussion here. Traf, MT and others,well done on your commentary.

As a Captain I've never turned down the jumpseat to anyone period regardless of corporate history. Until the we let the past be the past forgive and move on nothing gets better. Exbengal, you are one angry dude. I have no doubt that some of your anger is justifiable but we have all lost in the last few years. The only variable is by how much.

I applaud ACPA for taking a step many of us post Picher pilots want which is taking steps to protect the ENTIRE pilot profession while still taking care of internal union/company business.

Anyone who thinks that holding onto past grudges and not moving on is good policy should look at the middle east. The collateral damage will far exceed what is gained by either side if victory is ever possible. Aviation in Canada is much the same. I would love to see new hire f/o's earning no less than 60k on B1900's on up. This is about what a beer truck driver earns at the LCBO but some self loathing wannabe pilot economists will say even that is too much. We must realize our own worth, and demand fair compensation with safe working laws and fast.

Look at the CRJ 705 or Embraer 175. Both cost around 30 million. Both carry over 70 people great distances in all weather. Both need pilots that have enormous skill and good judgement to be flown well in all seasons. Both require operators with leadership and interpersonal skills since they will interact with many employees and paying customers throughout their daily tasks. Both could cause huge loss of life, and possible corporate solvency issues if they are not extremely good at their job. Both make less than branch bank managers, city councillors, members of parliment, and plumbers. We as pilots totally talk our own profession down when in fact our false modesty costs us respect. (Who hasn't joked the airplane flys itself, instead of discussing landing on an ice covered runway, with 1800 ft visibility at hour 13 of a 14 hour day. Talking our profession down only hurts ourselves.) We have flight attendents out earning many pilots within the same company. We have baggage loaders out earning pilots. Yet some still have their heads planted so far up their respective asses that they don't see that attacking each other has only made our situation worse. We have to quit raiding each others backyards, show a little respect for one another. In short we have to act like both professionals and trade unionists if we choose to improve our lot in life.

Picher is dead. The Mitchnick award is dead. The 2002 ACPA collective agreement is dead. Jazz gained jets and lost wages. ACPA is a house of cards in a huricane. Milton looks like a genius. Who in their right mind can't see that we must all change how we interact, and that we must all accept the present situation and move forward together or else more doom is ahead? Maybe when pilots can show more solidarity towards each other than their respective companies things will improve. I'm ready for peace amongst pilots. Am I alone?
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Last edited by Long Keel on Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bcflyer »

Probably the best post I've seen on Avcanada!! Peace among pilots. Maybe there's hope for this industry yet!!
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Gurundu the Rat
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Post by Gurundu the Rat »

Better late than never. I hope for everyones sake that this movement gains momentum. A very small percentage of pilots read these forums so we're going to have to get it out there or this will just become another lost thread.
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Jaques Strappe
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Post by Jaques Strappe »

ACPA's mandate is the survival of ACPA ( the entity ) as is ALPA's. Don't expect much change, we are simply pawns in a game of chess.

Don't mean to be negative, just realistic. Having been a member of both, they are the same dinosaurs. I would very much like to see more unification however, the landscape and players will need to change somewhat. Hopefully Andy and Brian will be a step in the right direction.

You can't get down on someone like Exbengal for expressing his opinions. Afterall, if there had been unification during Picher, this whole discussion would be mute. I am not taking sides but getting pilots to agree on anything is next to impossible.
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Last edited by Jaques Strappe on Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Traf »

ACPA's mandate is the survival of ACPA ( the entity ) as is ALPA's. Don't expect much change, we are simply pawns in a game of chess.
Oh man, this is worse than sleeping with a fat chick but here goes, I believe JS is correct. Man I feel dirty but he talks some good chit there.
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Gurundu the Rat
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Post by Gurundu the Rat »

I totally understand ACPA is fighting to keep its entity, but in the grand sheme of things, ALPA has been all over these issues for a long time. ACPA is just waking up to the fact that management is sharpening their knives for 2009 and will play the whipsaw for all its worth. I think it's a great initiative that ACPA took in talking with the other star alliance partners but they gotta get ALPA on board too (not just Jazz MEC). Or eventually they will just end up playing Oneworld vs Star. Anyways here is an interesting article. I hope the link works.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA ... &Tabid=256
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Jaques Strappe
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Post by Jaques Strappe »

Gurundu

That is a good article but I am convinced that pilots could work for free and the airline would still be hurting.

It is not pilot salaries that make or break a business plan but when management needs money, it is the easiest place to get it, which begs the question, why?
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asdfasd
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Post by asdfasd »

balls wrote:
Everyone likes to call themselves a profressional, but in fact are not by definition. Law, medicine, military, clergy, engineer. That's about it. The term 'professional' has lost it's meaning.
I disagree. Anyone can be a professional. Professional means you do your best job every time not just when you feel like it. That’s a hobby.
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Long Keel
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Post by Long Keel »

Actually, the only difference between an amateur and a professional is a paycheque. :lol:
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cyyz
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Post by cyyz »

Long Keel wrote:Actually, the only difference between an amateur and a professional is a paycheque. :lol:
funny how the videos still cost the same, whether it is an amateur or Jenna.. =(
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exbengal
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Post by exbengal »

Traf wrote:
"In order to accomplish this we need all pilot associations to come together in Canada"............Martin you can't be for real, what forward thinking, sounds to me like...........................CALPA, you my friend will be paying for what the oac's have done to aviation in this country for a long time. With special thanks to the 243's.

Guys like Dean, Pulley, Bauer,etc......have moved Canadian aviation back 50 years.
It is always somebody eles who is at fault. You know what exbengal, this is a tired old story." BLAH BLAH BLAH they did it to us blah blah blah, 243 blah blah blah picher blah blah blah you'll pay blah blah blah." As a Jazz pilot who is sitting back watching my pay get lower, management getting more aggressive and having to work more than I ever have, I wonder if it will ever stop.

All of that means nothing to me and it never will. WHat does concern me is my future. Andy Wilson makes some very good and very realistic points. We are under attack as a proffession and trust me, this is only the begining.We may have won a small victory in getting the RJs and maybe even given ACPA a little sting in the ass at the same time but this vicotry will not come without a price. Georgian and CMA are breathing down our necks and I am sure the company would love to give them the same deal they gave us. Transfer bigger equipment down the line to lower paid pilots. What will we have to do keep the D8s if they try to move them? What are they worth to us?

I feel strongly that if there is not some kind of GS or association for all or most pilots inthis country, we will be constantly fighting to maintain our already destroyed collective agreements.

If you don't believe me, just look at your pay stub. We are now flying 75 seats (in reality 90 seats RJs) for less than we flew 36 seat D8s. SAD SAD SAD!!!

Your "he did it" attitude will only continue to fuel the fire and will ensure nothing will get done. Before you point te finger at who is at fault for the industry being what it is today, you might want to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you have done or are doing anything to help improve it.

Now I am going to sit back and wait fo rthe fireworks to begin.
For Christ sakes idiot read the fu$KING POSTS, acpa JUST went infront of
Teplitsky and tried to reduce the Jazz seniority list by 40%....................and you blame me. Your a moron traf, keep up the butt licking.
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exbengal
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Post by exbengal »

"all of this means nothing to me and it never will"............that alone speaks volumes, if Andy Wilson or whoever in acpa wanted solutions to this they sure as shit wouldn't start off by trying to take your job away in front of Teplitsky now would they, good luck with the ass licking traf.

And as far as pointing fingers, alot of us played by the rules in dealing with acpa, so if that means nothing to you, you never will get it.
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tonysoprano
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Post by tonysoprano »

Jazz Looking For Pilots again on Workopolis

Sounds like things are good to me. Jazz will soon be Canada's largest airline. They won't need ACPA. Heck, they won't even need AC.
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