Martin Tamme re: Teplitsky

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Traf
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:40 pm

Post by Traf »

For Christ sakes idiot read the fu$KING POSTS, acpa JUST went infront of
Teplitsky and tried to reduce the Jazz seniority list by 40%....................and you blame me. Your a moron traf, keep up the butt licking.
Read your own post you bitter twisted old F*&k! Why do you think ACPA did that? It is a continuation of the whipsawing and fighting that has become the reality of our airline!!! With the current situation, everytime one of us goes into negots or before an arbitrator, I have to be looking over my shoulder wondering if it is back to the right seat, or maybe another pay cut. What you just described above is exactly the situation I would like to avoid in the future.

Let me ask you this mr. airline know-it-all genius. What happens if the company tries to move D8s to GGN/CMA? Do we fight it? DO we scope them? Do we just let them go? Tell me smartass, what is our move when faced with this problem?

You can't tell me that ACPA is currently doing anything that we wouldn't do faced with 25 hulls being passed down to the next group?! Don't even think about telling me otherwise! The fact is, when ACPA scopes, they are assholes, but when we do it, we are just protecting what is ours. Well, which way is it? I scope bad or necessary? Scope is a reality because without out it, you would be making 50k/year as a skipper on a big Jet working for GGN.

I am not going to apologise for wanting to put your 20 year old fight to bed. It is playing into the company's hands like a well oiled plan and we are the ones taking it from behind. The constant bickering will simply promote more days like you mentioned with ACPA and ALPA meeting in an arbitrators office trying to decide who gets what next year. Sorry, I have heard your "be afraid, be very afraid" speech too many times and frankly, I am starting to wonder which side I need to fear the most. Is it the side that will do anything to put a nail in Jazz's coffin with scope, Jets are US, arbitrators or any tool they can get their hands on. Maybe it is the side that refuses to look into the future and will do anything to get revenge upon ACPA even if it means shooting themselves in the foot to do it.

You call me the idiot ,but what would you call a guy who is being played by the company like a 2 dollar fiddle and will not consider any options at all if it has to with ACPA even if it means lower pay, lower pension, more work days, less benefits etc...? Dumbass comes to mind!

If asked in a crewroom, I would say the same thing. It is foolish and dangerous for the Jazz pilots not to consider every option out there to stop the company from cutting us a new hole in 2009. Just because we talk to ACPA, does not mean anything has to happen. Our last round of GS talks is a good example of that. I know they were close but for some reason, it didn't happen. No skin off our noses now was it?

I don't even know why I bothered to reply to your post. You have your mind made up already and will never consider even looking at a solution because you are only interested in getting even, no matter what it costs!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Four1oh
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2448
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:24 pm

Post by Four1oh »

tonysoprano wrote:Jazz Looking For Pilots again on Workopolis

Sounds like things are good to me. Jazz will soon be Canada's largest airline. They won't need ACPA. Heck, they won't even need AC.
Don't worry, they'll still need AC to foot the fuel bill.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tonysoprano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm

Post by tonysoprano »

Guess you're right four1oh. That's what makes us one big happy family I guess.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by tonysoprano on Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Glen Quagmire
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:32 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Glen Quagmire »

I think most people here are missing the big picture and the underlying issues.

I work for Jazz and the first time I heard that ACPA wanted the 100's back I thought they must be crazy. It would mean me losing my job, why wouldn't I be a little insulted. But instead of turning anti ACPA and playing right into management's hands I dug a little deeper. Turns out that ACPA's contract states that for every EMB that comes online one RJ will be transferred over to Jazz. Well we had all the RJ's as of a few months ago and AC only had 18 or 19 EMB's on the lot. A blatant violation of the contract. Does management care, probably not considering any talk of the RJ's going back or going over too soon would and has created more animosity among the groups, just as they might have hoped. I think the ACPA move in front of Teplistky was merely symbolic and a way of telling the company that they know the contract is being ignored.

This issue is big in that it seemingly sums up management's position regarding the pilot groups and the stance they will be taking now and in the future. Simply pit as many groups against the other and the contract becomes null and void. It seems it's no longer simply blue tail vs. red tail, but PG vs. the rest, 320 vs. the rest, Jazz vs. AC, ALPA vs. ACPA and on and on.

A truly unified group is the only way to fight back against this example of a totalitarian state. The issue of CMA/GGN getting Dash8's goes away with a united front, just as the cargo flying saga would quickly resolve itself if you had a group of 5000 strong coming to the table. The idea of having an association is nice but let's start by uniting our own group and seeing what a difference that makes.

Of course there are Jazz guys with a hate on for ACPA just as there are ACPA guys that hate Jazz, but with strong leadership and new ideas we can get past that and improve all our lives through better pay and working conditions.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Martin Tamme
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Post by Martin Tamme »

Glen Quagmire wrote:I think the ACPA move in front of Teplistky was merely symbolic and a way of telling the company that they know the contract is being ignored.
You basically got it. In 2000, we had 239 aircraft on the property. We had fleet guarantees that were supposed to increase over the next several years.

Then came 9/11, SARS, CCAA. We now have less than 200 aircraft (almost 20% decrease) while Jazz has grown by over 50% in the same time span.

Our scope language was raped as a result of CCAA, but we have new language that is being largely ignored by the Company. It's not so much about how many EMJs we have received, but the total reduction of the fleet (4 B747s, 17 DC-9s, 3 A319s, 3 A321s, 35 B737s, 25 RJs, etc... ALL GONE, although we still have guarantees in place).

Forget about Jazz for the moment; we allowed the Company to contract out our cargo flying for a 3-year term to test the markets.

This flying is supposed to be repatriated back to us in June 2007. We have just received a letter from the Company indicating that they will be ignoring this part of the Collective Agreement. That's presently over 30 crews (3 man per crew).

We have a contract and the Company is not abiding by it. What should we do? Do nothing? We have to draw our line in the sand somewhere. The latest RJs to Jazz is just the tip of the iceberg of where our watered down Collective Agreement is not being adhered to.



On another topic, I have just read a couple Jazz MEC Bulletins that were issued to the Jazz pilots (dated July 21st), namely:

1) THE CULPABLE ABSENTEEISM POLICY (CAP) & DISABILITY CASE MANAGEMENT (DCM) and other Labour Policy Abominations.
2) JAZZ MEC SPECIAL BULLETIN - CAPTAIN’S AUTHORITY


Guys, ACPA went through the same some time ago. We dealt with #1 from November 2004 - February 2005. We got it resolved to our satisfaction (meaning the whole idea was a no-go) without having to resort to grievance/arbitration. We dealt with #2 back in 2000/2001.

It would seem that the Company experiments it on the mainline pilots first, and when it fails, they rework it a bit, and then try it on Jazz. Would the Jazz pilots like to know what ACPA did to resolve these issues, or would they like to figure it out for themselves?

In other words, do you want to work in a vacuum in dealing with your problems, or would you like to know what others have tried, and what has worked? That's what ACPA is doing on a global scale with ASAP.

There is no harm in talking, and sharing strategy to beat an entity that is trying to divide and conquer us.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Glen Quagmire
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:32 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Glen Quagmire »

Martin

I agree with much of what you say, although I am not quite sure about the Jazz has grown 50% part. I think that the Jazz fleet pre CCAA stood at around 110 airplanes of which 40 were jets.

Anyhow someone in a leadership role on one side of the aisle will have to extend an olive branch to bring about more unity. Perhaps you might be up for it. I know you will have my support at least should you chose so. I believe we have to be more aligned and have more civilized discourse to regain pay and conditions come 09.

Perhaps I haven't been in the ACE family long enough to understand all the intricacies of the system, but I know one thing, there is strength in numbers.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Traf
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:40 pm

Post by Traf »

So here is the million dollar question; How do you get these 2 sides on the same page when there has been 20 years of fighting, there is a lawsuit between a portion of them and both unions want to represesnt and are worried about the survival of the union as much as they are worried about survival of the airline?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Jaques Strappe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Jaques Strappe »

You fire them both and vote in the Teamsters.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Standby for new atis message
tonysoprano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm

Post by tonysoprano »

Buzz for president. He's got my vote.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Martin Tamme
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Post by Martin Tamme »

Traf wrote:So here is the million dollar question; How do you get these 2 sides on the same page when there has been 20 years of fighting, there is a lawsuit between a portion of them and both unions want to represesnt and are worried about the survival of the union as much as they are worried about survival of the airline?


This begs the question: What is a union? Is it a corporate logo, with financials and legalities attached, or is it the heart and soul of its members?


I'm looking at the names of the guys who run ALPA Jazz. Would any of those names change if the Teamsters were representing the Jazz pilots? The only significant change, with a change in union representation, is the Constitution and the Policy Manual; the players will most likely remain the same.

What I'm trying to say, it doesn't matter what you are called, because it's the guys running it who will be your true representatives.


This brings me now to the next question: If its the same players running the show, does it matter what the outfit is called? What's the difference between ACPA and ALPA if the leaders are the same? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

ALPA is truly a brotherhood of pilots; it doesn't really look at what is best for each individual segment of the membership, as long as it is good for the membership (or entity) as a whole -some segments will be sacrificed for the benefit of the whole.

Take the CAW & its Passenger Service Agents as an example. The agents did not take any wage cuts during CCAA (unless you count a 2.5% wage cut, which snapped back this year), however they sacrificed their young. The CAW would rather layoff almost every single person except one, as long as the one remaining person did not take a pay cut. In other words, as long as the entity is spared, individual segments can be sacrificed.

ALPA is similar, in that it has to conduct a careful balancing act between the individual needs of the numerous parts that make up the whole.

ACPA does not have this problem, because it can solely concentrate on the needs of its members. However, the biggest disadvantage is that it has lost its strength, the strength that comes with numbers.


So what is the best solution?

Beats me. However, it is quite obvious that we can't continue on the same path. The only alternative we've found is to form a Professional Association; an association that will work to enhance and protect the piloting profession (and anything that we have in common), but that each segment will still be responsible to its own members on the micro level.

It is working globally with ASAP, so why not bring it locally to our country? Instead of always looking at our differences, why don't we look at what we have in common?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Martin Tamme on Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Martin Tamme
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Post by Martin Tamme »

tonysoprano wrote:Buzz for president. He's got my vote.


If Buzz were in charge of ACPA, he would have given all RJs, EMJs and A320s to Jazz (which they can operate at their DH8 pay rates), as long as the widebodies did not take one single concession.

You most probably would have been laid off. However, the most senior pilot would not have lost a penny.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tonysoprano
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm

Post by tonysoprano »

OK, I'll bite. Why would Buzz send all the narrow bodies to Jazz? And don't tell me it's the cost thing because that's what I would expect from Robert, not Buzz.
---------- ADS -----------
 
exbengal
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:38 am

Post by exbengal »

"ACPA does not have this problem, because it can solely concentrate on the needs of its members. However, the biggest disadvantage is that it has lost its strength, the strength that comes with numbers".

You might want to ask some OCPer's about that one.


"So what is the best solution"?

"Beats me. However, it is quite obvious that we can't continue on the same path. The only alternative we've found is to form a Professional Association; an association that will work to enhance and protect the piloting profession (and anything that we have in common), but that each segment will still be responsible to its own members on the micro level".

Martin, if your in the "know" as you say you are with acpa, then you would realise that the only thing preventing a global solution last time was the representation vote.

The majority of Jazz pilots (imo) have little allegiance to alpa national with Duane Worth and his 550k/year salary, like myself, I'm sure they couldn't give a rats arse if they were represented by acpa or alpa.

The solutions to fixing this are simple, going infront of Teplitsky is a step backwards and doesn't help in unifying the whole group, hence for my reason for starting this thread in the first place.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Jaques Strappe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Jaques Strappe »

Exbengal

I believe the hearing in front of Teplitski was solely to do with upholding the terms of the collective agreement. I can assure you that the members of ACPA would be stunned if it were announced that ACPA was bringing back the RJ to mainline.

There are many of us at mainline that are somewhat sympathetic to the whole process. When I say that, I mean, we don't hate Jazz or its pilots, many of us have roots there. We would much rather see a unified group, working together.

The way I see it, there is a minority of each group within each camp that are so twisted and bitter, they would rather see the demise of the two groups than a solution. We are seeing this within the mainline ranks with a small splinter group that are insistent on shooting more bullets into the dead horse named Keller. I have been demanding that ACPA put this to a vote ( to allow democratic process ) once and for all to put an end to it. So far nothing. So I am aware that both sides are not particularly trustworthy. ( as do most members )

ACPA needs to realize that the lawsuit is a personal matter between a select group of members. For whatever reason, they have taken ownership of this and will not negotiate on behalf of the majority until this matter is off the table. ( must be nice to know that if someone sues me, ACPA and its members will come to my aid ) a bit unrealistic! This has to be resolved and I don't see it happening until ACPA distances itself. Amazing how democracy disappears in the name of politics.

Martin is probably correct in the fact that you can change the name of a union but still have the same players. Therefore, the obvious solution is to fire all the players and put new recruits on the bench that don't have a particular hate on for the other team.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Standby for new atis message
Martin Tamme
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Post by Martin Tamme »

Jaques Strappe wrote: Martin is probably correct in the fact that you can change the name of a union but still have the same players. Therefore, the obvious solution is to fire all the players and put new recruits on the bench that don't have a particular hate on for the other team.

That was my point in one of my original posts in this thread: Only 4 of the 13 MEC ACPA members were hired pre-1997, and of these 2 are former CP. 10 of the 13 members have never held office in any shape or form prior to January 2006.

We are the new recruits!!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Post by Dockjock »

Many of the non-seniority/labour issues that pilots face these days cannot be addressed effectively unions. Take ACPA's ongoing ULH fight w.r.t. extended duty and augmentation. Granted, there is no other carrier in Canada currently competing in that arena, but duty time, fatigue, and augment issues must be fought on a national/regulatory level to prevent the competitive disadvantage that would result from company specific restrictions.
For every hour that ACPA wins as a reduction from the CARS, it's another hour, competitively, that WJ and Jazz, and CJ etc effectively gain in pilot productivity. Additionally, if we were to attempt to align our flight and duty time limitations with the US (1000 annually) or Europe (900 annually), it has to be by lobbying TC through a non-paritsan professional group- not a labour organization. If Air Canada pilots are the only ones flying 900 hrs a year, while everyone else is doing 1000-1200, competitively it's a no go, even though it would probably make the airline safer.
In fact, on principle I think management at every company would even agree that there are fatigue issues to deal with these days, but are prevented from agreeing in public (and negotiations) due to the competitive productivity problems that arise. If a company were to be assured that everyone was to be affected simultaneously by new, lower FTL's (as an example), they would surely be on board.

This is the right direction and I would fully support a national association! Good luck Martin.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Traf
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:40 pm

Post by Traf »

ACPA needs to realize that the lawsuit is a personal matter between a select group of members. For whatever reason, they have taken ownership of this and will not negotiate on behalf of the majority until this matter is off the table. ( must be nice to know that if someone sues me, ACPA and its members will come to my aid ) a bit unrealistic!
ACPA has taken on the lawsuit as their own because when the suit was launched, all the ACPA reps were involved in the suit. Now that the OAC has been diluted by new hires and CDN pilots, it is not as cut and dry as it was before with respect to ACPA and the lawsuit.

Must suck to be a non OAC pilot and knowing that your dues are being spent on a personal lawsuit that was the result of the OAC pilots actions.
---------- ADS -----------
 
exbengal
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:38 am

Post by exbengal »

Jaques Strappe wrote:Exbengal

I believe the hearing in front of Teplitski was solely to do with upholding the terms of the collective agreement. I can assure you that the members of ACPA would be stunned if it were announced that ACPA was bringing back the RJ to mainline.

There are many of us at mainline that are somewhat sympathetic to the whole process. When I say that, I mean, we don't hate Jazz or its pilots, many of us have roots there. We would much rather see a unified group, working together.

The way I see it, there is a minority of each group within each camp that are so twisted and bitter, they would rather see the demise of the two groups than a solution. We are seeing this within the mainline ranks with a small splinter group that are insistent on shooting more bullets into the dead horse named Keller. I have been demanding that ACPA put this to a vote ( to allow democratic process ) once and for all to put an end to it. So far nothing. So I am aware that both sides are not particularly trustworthy. ( as do most members )

ACPA needs to realize that the lawsuit is a personal matter between a select group of members. For whatever reason, they have taken ownership of this and will not negotiate on behalf of the majority until this matter is off the table. ( must be nice to know that if someone sues me, ACPA and its members will come to my aid ) a bit unrealistic! This has to be resolved and I don't see it happening until ACPA distances itself. Amazing how democracy disappears in the name of politics.

Martin is probably correct in the fact that you can change the name of a union but still have the same players. Therefore, the obvious solution is to fire all the players and put new recruits on the bench that don't have a particular hate on for the other team.
Hi Jaques, what I'm complaining about is acpa goes in front of Teplitsky complaining about rj's but on the other hand the some of the Airbuses were supposed to leave, saying they were to loose alot of jobs, hence acpa got to keep the emj's.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to fly the emj or airbus for dash wages, however the company can at anytime got in front of Teplitsky with a better "business plan for jazz" and guess what, all your negotiate concessions for scope don't mean jack.

Milton has already said publicly about an IPO for mainline, and that he and Schwartz are again best buds. That is not good news for any of us.

Martin Tamme points out that its the same old guard in alpa, but I don't see anyone in alpa trying to go in front of Teplitsky to capture more flying. I'm positive Brian Shurry and the rest would like to have a unified group.

I've already said this but if acpa really wanted a solution then I'm sure its there, going in front of Teplitsky just moves the whole process backwards, I've got about than 20 years left, and I for one don't feel like going in front of some self appointed arbitrator every time we (the whole group) has to negotiate. If we were a unified group the first thing I'd do is get rid of him.

As far as the lawsuit, there is a lot that acpa isn't telling their members about. You would be surprised at the number of acpa members Ive had a chat with in the j/s or terminal who knew absolutely nothing about the Teplitsky hearings, hopefully its over and done with sooner than later.
Take care.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Jaques Strappe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: YYZ

Post by Jaques Strappe »

Exbengal

I agree with you whole heartedly. It reminds me of when my first wife and I got divoirced. We remained friends and very civily, divided things up, came to an agreement between ourselves and then went to the lawyers office to make it all legal. Thats when the fun began. Luckily, we kept eachother informed when the sharks tried to turn it up a notch and walked in demanding it be done the way we wanted it done.

The membership needs to take a more active role and be informed of what is going on. The lawyers will keep yhis going on indefinetly for their sake. We need to put pressure on our MECs to make this a priority. As you, I have 20 years left and I don't want some arbitrator deciding my fate all the time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Standby for new atis message
YULdude
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:39 pm

Post by YULdude »

exbengal wrote:Don't get me wrong here, I don't want to fly the emj or airbus for dash wages, however the company can at anytime got in front of Teplitsky with a better "business plan for jazz" and guess what, all your negotiate concessions for scope don't mean jack.
Xbengal,

Here's is where you are not 100% correct. Teplitsky can only decide (if we can't) where additional CRJs and EMB175s go, that's it. He doesn't have a say in anything bigger than a RJ-900 or EMB-175. (i.e. 190, 320 etc...)
exbengal wrote:Martin Tamme points out that its the same old guard in alpa, but I don't see anyone in alpa trying to go in front of Teplitsky to capture more flying. I'm positive Brian Shurry and the rest would like to have a unified group.
No you're right, ALPA only went behind our back with Calin R, and helped take some flying from us in early 2003 whilst in the early stages of CCAA. Both sides are from from blame here...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”