on call, and on duty rest at the same time?

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:40 pm

Just wondering others thoughts on this. Can you be 'on call' and 'resting' at the same time?
Thanks in advance.

dctthefield · Post by **dctthefield** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:46 pm

Simply put - No. But I gather your boss is suggesting otherwise. It should be pretty clear in the CARS.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:16 pm

Now there's a "grey" area. I know we're expected to be on call 24/7! I get a call at three in the afternoon, I'm fully expected to dash to the airport and be airbourne within the hour....then go for fifteen hours! Kind of makes you think you should stay in bed till the phone rings. I know some operators expect pilots to be on call in twelve hour shifts...and if you go out after being on call for six hours, you're only good for nine.

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:46 pm

I have seen this done.

Being on call, getting called and doing a 4 hour flight. Now you still have 11 hours in your duty day. If you go home and "rest" for 9 hours, you are now available for a 15 hour day. If you get a call before 9 hours but more than 4 you are are good for a 17 hour day. If you get a call before 4 hours you are still working your original 15 day.

So to answer the first question, not sure if it's legal, but yes at some places you care "on call" and "on rest" at the same time.

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:37 pm

Being on call, getting called and doing a 4 hour flight. Now you still have 11 hours in your duty day. If you go home and "rest" for 9 hours, you are now available for a 15 hour day. If you get a call before 9 hours but more than 4 you are are good for a 17 hour day. If you get a call before 4 hours you are still working your original 15 day.

Yeah, this is what I am talking about. What I get from the CARS is
(3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member's time free from duty.

Does this mean days off, or duty rest, since in my mind, duty rest, and time free from duty are kinda similar.

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:26 pm

not sure if it's legal,

Yeah, that is also what I am wondering.
I would also like to take the time to thank Transport for making the regs so grey that employers can take them to mean whatever the hell they want. Mind you, I was once told by someone at transport that they do that on purpose anyway, so things can mean whatever they feel like that day.

CD · Post by CD » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:43 pm

Don't know if it will help in your question, but you can try these advisory circulars as well:

Flight Time and Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods

Exemption from the Flight and Duty Time Limitations for Contracted Air Operator MEDEVAC Service Providers

Time Free from Duty Options

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:26 pm

It isn't very grey.

Here's the black part:
720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve

Quote:
The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:

(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or

(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.

(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:

(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and

(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.

The grey part would be in your company's ops specs in the manual that all crewmembers should have. If you are on call, a period where you are free from all company related duties.

If the wish is to extend your crew duty day, then it works like this: You do a trip. The client wants you to hold in Manimosquito lake for the day, fly them back to the big city. Then you can, if: they had a place where you could crash undisturbed for four hours. If they said go sit in the terminal, or wait in the plane and we'll get back to you, then, baby, the meter's running

Your boss may predate the Cars, when things were simple. Ignorance of the law (and it is the law ) is no excuse when Transport or your client auditor catches you .

There may be an advisory circular floating around. Unless your ops manula makes reference to it, too bad for you. No soup. No Pager on your rest.

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:34 am

Unfortunately for us, on 'reserve' and on 'call' are nt the same thing. In fact, if paged out after 2200, we still have to fly for 15 hours, not 10. Which is pretty stupid to me.
This is very frustrating.

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:43 am

I havent got time to find the CARS that pertain to this but.
If you did not get proper rest or you even feel like you did not have enough rest to go to work then YOU are required (by law) to tell your employer to get stuffed and then go back to bed.

supersnail wrote:
not sure if it's legal,
Yeah, that is also what I am wondering.
I would also like to take the time to thank Transport for making the regs so grey that employers can take them to mean whatever the hell they want. Mind you, I was once told by someone at transport that they do that on purpose anyway, so things can mean whatever they feel like that day.

YOU are catching on

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:54 am

Requirements for Time Free from Duty

700.19 (1) Subject to subsection (2), an air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:

(a) where the operation is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 using an aircraft other than a helicopter, one period of at least 36 consecutive hours within each 7 consecutive days or one period of at least 3 consecutive calendar days within each 17 consecutive days;

(b) where the operation is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 or is conducted using a helicopter, one period of at least 24 consecutive hours 13 times within each 90 consecutive days and 3 times within each 30 consecutive days; and

(c) where the flight crew member is a flight crew member on call, one period of at least 36 consecutive hours within each 7 consecutive days or one period of at least 3 consecutive calendar days within each 17 consecutive days.

(2) An air operator may provide a flight crew member with time free from duty other than as required by paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) if

(a) the time free from duty is authorized in the air operator certificate; and

(b) the air operator and the flight crew member comply with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member's time free from duty.

Flight Crew Members on Reserve

700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide flight crew members on reserve, within each 24-hour period, with a rest period that meets the requirements of the Commercial Air Service Standards.
(amended 1999/06/01; previous version)

(2) Every air operator shall outline in its company operations manual a method for ensuring compliance with this Section and the Commercial Air Service Standards.

Fitness of Flight Crew Members

602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person

(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or

(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person's duties as a flight crew member.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:22 pm

Where I work now we go by the book on call for the most part. Cleaning the airplane isn't considered "on duty", neither is getting out of bed then having dispatch cancel the trip. But at some companies I've worked at, slinging cargo all day wasn't considered "working" either so I guess I have it ghood now. cj

R580XD · Post by **R580XD** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:35 pm

The first thing I do when I enter the door is go directly to my duty logsheets and enter the time down I entered to report for duty... boss seems to think my day doesn't start until I'm pulling away from the ramp though...

Ireton · Post by **Ireton** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:19 am

co-joe:

so I guess I have it ghood now. cj

That's status quo. Dont shoot yourself in the foot. While the definition for flight duty doesnt include washing the planes, I wouldnt let them get away with making me wash the plane then go flying for 14 or 15 hours. In fact, as far as the definition is concerned, washing the plane can be considered one of the "duties assigned prior to flight"

Lets take a look at the definitions:

"flight crew member on call" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator to be available to report for flight duty on notice of one hour or less;

"flight crew member on reserve" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator to be available to report for flight duty on notice of more than one hour;

"flight duty time" - means the period that starts when a flight crew member reports for a flight, or reports as a flight crew member on standby, and finishes at "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight, except in the case of a flight conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 of Part VII, in which case the period finishes 15 minutes after "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight, and includes the time required to complete any duties assigned by the air operator or private operator or delegated by the Minister prior to the reporting time

Supersnail, you need to be designated as one or the other before you begin your work on call or on reserve. There's a whole section in the standards about being on reserve. I have to look at it all again to give you my interpretation, but you're certainly right that its very grey.

Andrew

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:41 am

Pretend for a moment,
You got to the hanger at 9:00am, wash some airplanes , do some paper work and its around 12:00 pm. Your BOSS comes up to you and says you have a charter. Now you and HE thinks you are good to around 2-3:00 in the am of the next day.
I dont need the CARS TO TELL ME I am not safe after around 23:00.
Now lets say you go off the end of the rwy at 2:30am. When and where do you think TSB/TC will start your DUTY DAY.
Not a 12:00pm. (not a-chance)

DiscoDashSeven · Post by **DiscoDashSeven** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:21 am

Ireton wrote:in which case the period finishes 15 minutes after "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight,

It's fun to TRY to get all the post-flight duties done in 15 min isn't it?

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:07 pm

Here's a quote right from TC's mouth.

"You can do 100 company tasks in a day and the 101st could be flying the aircraft, but your duty day starts at task number one."

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:36 pm

Funny thing, I asked a transport inspector about this the other day, and he told me that I should be dealing with the insurance companies since they run the industry anyway..how's that for passing the buck? He then proceeded to give me the name of the inspector that deals with my particular company so i could talk to him. Yeah right, the same guy that told the boss it was ok to do this kind of thing. So, transport is as useless I had thought, go figure.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:18 pm

The thing is transport has gotten wise to the fact that we keep asking different inspectors until we get the right (the one we want) answer. So the solution is to make us go through the same person each time. This is why they no longer answer questions if they find out you live more than fifty miles away.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:49 pm

Nothing is illegal until you get caught at it. Duty times are determined by what is written down. So if you rebuild the hangar, paint the doors, do anything else that is not written down, you did not do it. You were at home getting your beauty sleep. Commit aviation and that goes in the log book. A legal document. It would be interesting if you had a date-stamped receipt for the hammer and nails you bought to rebuild the hangar.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:37 pm

Supersnail:

You don't by any chance work for Thunder?? Careful about talking to inspectors. The last guy to do that (incidentily it was about this very issue)was the last to get called back after layoffs even though he had a ton of seniority.

Ah the great life of a pilot.

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:03 am

oldtimer wrote:Nothing is illegal until you get caught at it. Duty times are determined by what is written down. So if you rebuild the hangar, paint the doors, do anything else that is not written down, you did not do it. You were at home getting your beauty sleep. Commit aviation and that goes in the log book. A legal document. It would be interesting if you had a date-stamped receipt for the hammer and nails you bought to rebuild the hangar.

So if this is true (i beg to differ) then does it make it OK/safe to operate an airplane after 15-16 hours on duty???

(I guess anything goes as long as you do not get caught)

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:30 am

To answer Bcn-in-Bnd, I am not endorsing nor recomending that course of action. Of course a pilot who is fatigued is a hazard. All I am saying is that in the real world of small two bit operators who constantly operate on the thin edge of legality and safety, this is the norm. It will only stop when either pilots refuse unsafe working conditions and/or regulations are introduced to eliminate the problem. This is not exclusivly an aviation thing. Legends have been told and cowboy songs written on how truckers "cheat their stooleys" and falsify log books. Years ago, before it became "not politically correct" trucks were equiped with "Tach-Graphs", called stooleys, a sort of FDR that showed how many hours the engine was running and what gear the truck was in, just to prevent 36 and 48 hour duty days. If too many aviation accident happen due to fatigue, that may be part of the aviation scene. All it takes is legislation.

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:35 am

......i thought as much, but I had to ask.

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:40 pm

Bede, no I don't, but guess it is no suprise that more than one company in the country is doing this kind of thing.