Any job can be looked at in the light you are presenting.
Doctors can be glorified witch doctors, people in sales can be glorified door - to - door vacuum salespeople, and the list can go on....
You are what you let yourself become. I completely disagree with the statement that we are bus drivers. As has been said before, the skill level, education, knowledge and experience are what separates certain jobs and their "glorified" counterparts.
When I go to work, I am friendly to everyone, groundcrew, f/a's, other crewmembers, etc. but the moment someone makes a remark about being a bus driver, all bets are off. The people that make those remarks (pax-wise) just don't get it, until something goes wrong, then they hope that the guys and girls up front have all the necessary training, skill, and experience to deal with the situation at hand.
It bothers me to hear people (industry-side) that are willing to throw in the towel, and not dare to dream of what could be if we work together - association or otherwise.
Nothing can take away from me what I have, and that's the training and experience required to be a professional pilot.
Awesome post bro.
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I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
While I do respect the fact the industry constantly changing, and there are many airlines out there asking pilots to work in unacceptable conditions for very unacceptable pay. I do not agree with you analysis of Zoom being that same category.
First off, Zoom gave the pilots a new payscale apprx 1 year ago, which gave pilots the incentive to stick around (8 yr payscale). While the starting pay is only in the mid 50s, they do not ask for a training bond, you get full pay (and per diem cheque for the first 2 weeks min.) from the first day of groundschool. The pay increases very quickly and upgrades are just as quick. The last group were 1 year with the company. So if you were in that group you are making 6 figures at the end of year 2 (with the company), and it keeps going up (twice a year in fact).
Benefits are very good, most are 100% company paid, and most certainly at or above industry standard. Add to that the annual Christmas party in the carribean, annual travel voucher to use on GoTravel or Zoom (enough to do 4star in Cuba for a small family).
Also as a bit of inside info, there is a new set of working conditions on the way down the pipe, which will further define scheduling, bidding, etc. All for the good of the pilot group. And the best part is I am not just a number!!
This seems pretty good for a company that has only been around for 3.5 years IMHO.
Twizzler.
I wasn't aware of the latest round of benefits which sounds pretty good. I know that companies like Zoom provide incentives to stick around. They have to. I especially like the fact that there is no training bond. My thoughts remain though that pilot groups all over the world have worked hard for many decades and pilots have gone on strike to achieve the salary and benefits standards that flag carriers enjoy today. I invite you to compare what pilots at AC or any European flag carrier make on the B767 compared to you. Not to mention the benefits. But now, management is comparing these companies (legacy, traditional, flag carrier, whatever) to the low cost ones like Zoom and that's what is happening at negotiating time. I am by no means saying that this is their only weapon. they also use the recent perfect storm as an excuse but by and large they compare us to you. I feel our salaries will never be what they use to be or what they could have been. Your conditions sound pretty good to you perhaps because you are comparing them to your previuos job. If you compare it to what AC use to be, and (arguably) still is, it's still miles apart. We can argue this forever, but I have seen it first hand. Not just at AC but also in other countries where the low costs have broken ground. I am not diminishing your lifestyle, just worried about where mine is headed for.
tonysoprano wrote:Twizzler.
I wasn't aware of the latest round of benefits which sounds pretty good. I know that companies like Zoom provide incentives to stick around. They have to. I especially like the fact that there is no training bond. My thoughts remain though that pilot groups all over the world have worked hard for many decades and pilots have gone on strike to achieve the salary and benefits standards that flag carriers enjoy today. I invite you to compare what pilots at AC or any European flag carrier make on the B767 compared to you. Not to mention the benefits. But now, management is comparing these companies (legacy, traditional, flag carrier, whatever) to the low cost ones like Zoom and that's what is happening at negotiating time. I am by no means saying that this is their only weapon. they also use the recent perfect storm as an excuse but by and large they compare us to you. I feel our salaries will never be what they use to be or what they could have been. Your conditions sound pretty good to you perhaps because you are comparing them to your previuos job. If you compare it to what AC use to be, and (arguably) still is, it's still miles apart. We can argue this forever, but I have seen it first hand. Not just at AC but also in other countries where the low costs have ,broken ground. I am not diminishing your lifestyle, just worried about where mine is headed for.
I would like to think that when the time comes (2009) you and the rest of the pilots(myself included) at AC will have the intestinal fortitude to strike , if need be, to stop the downward slide that is occuring wth our pay and work conditions.Especially for the junior pilots.Although from what i've seen so far, i'm not confident this will occur.
I will agree LCC's started the downward trend but they have appearred to be heading the other way.(WJA new deal as evidence and ZOOM's new stuff coming down the pipes) Maybe the bottom has been reached, even for us. I know it has for me.
W9F.
Their management has realized that they have invested some money in these guys and want to keep them around a while. So they throw a few more cookies in the jar and, wow, are we happy now? At some point the jar will stop getting filled as the company expands and spends money trying to make the customer happy. They will see this when the margins become thinner. In our case the company is trying to get rid of the cookies but they will find there's a limit. That limit will always be higher than the low cost model. We can and will shut the company down if need be. We've seen our contract take a hit but most pilots would love to have a two inch thick contract they can carry around in their flt bag. I don't like everything that's in it, but for the most part it's a good contract and has been the work of our group for many decades. If you think your bottom has been reached, you should consider the "greener" grass on the other side.
That limit will always be higher than the low cost model.
Says who? I don't know if you've been flying with your eyes shut for the past five years but the market has dictated that you are not worth what you used to be. Blame it on the low-cost carriers or blame it on Santa Claus, I don't really care. The fact remains that your company will remain competitive with the market and as such, the salaries will reflect that. I'm sure there's room to gain some of it back, but certainly not to the extent you and your "brothers" would like.
CanadaEh.
No I certainly don't have my eyes shut. The "market" bro, now includes mostly low cost companies and AC is the only traditional one left in this country. I agree with you. The market is setting the salaries and who do you think is influencing the market the most? I think the majority is. That means you, WJ, Zoom, Canjet,Skyser. etc, all low-cost carriers. At negotiating time, we, AC, were told that we must compete with you even though we fly bigger airplanes, more pax and longer distances. Our salaries have taken a hit because of your "market". You can spin it any way you want, the culprit is clear. I believe that in our industry, management is setting the salaries and right now, management is in a low cost mode. The 20% loss in salaries that AC A320 drivers took was a direct response to the low cost model that we are competing with. Yep, it's the market alright. It's your market (and nothing to do with Santa Claus ).
AC chose to chase the low yield domestic travel on its own. It has jumped in to routes invented by WestJet. YYJ-YEG/YYJ-YYC/YYJ-YYC/YQQ-YYC/YLW-YYZ... the list goes on. WestJet sets the fares on those routes and AC must match or not do the route. Going further back in time, AC even flew DC9's on money losing routes to the US and then 'sold' the aircraft to remain profitable for each route. That story is written in Robert Milton's book 'The Truth about Air Canada'. So blame low cost all you want, but in my opinion the drop in salary is from evolving from a government regulated airline and chosing to compete in a new market that was never there before LCC's. In the case of a market left un-stimulated by LCC's I don't think you would have seen nearly the job creation and seniority movement you have to date if AC had chosen to stick to Legacy flying, big trunk routes and hub and spoke feed from Regionals. I wouldn't worry for too long, your pay group isn't working well during expansion mode and AC will have to do something to fix it soon.
Hey guys. AC salaries were doing just fine prior to the low cost euphoria. Like I said, it's a huge barganing tool for our cronies at the top. Our planes are still full, wether we match your prices or not. It's the cost structure that is evolving. I'm all for efficiency, but I don't think I'm willing to see my salary drop on account of how someone else runs their business. At the end of the day, we're still doing ok but it's the trend I'm concerned with. If even the unionized salaries are dropping, where does that put us a few years from now? And don't think Clive or Boyle will keep throwing more cookies in that jar. At some point the brakes will be applied in the interest of evolving or expansion. They have control, not us. All the more reason to have a unified country-wide group having more control over our destiny. If we're all going to be low cost in the future, let's make sure we're not paid low cost.
I can see your point but its a forest for the trees thing. Southwest is the king of LCC's, yet they have the highest operating margin and the highest paid marrow body pilots in the world. They have a unionized contract, yet they remain the most efficient pilot's. The average pilot there is doen his month in 8-11 days and is free to pick up more flying... at there flat hourly pay rate.
One example for Air Canada is it's severe shortage of A320 pilots... the pilots in turn bid for 'load end' of the month, fly out their hours in the first 14 days and get displaced on the end of the month for more pilots to fly over time at 1.25 times the pay and make the shortage even worse and more expensive.
LCC's can be paid well, I'm shaping up to get a huge profit share cheque and it's not because I fucked WestJet for the extra bucks, but I know that every penny counts in an airline.
I can see a Canada wide pilot group, but I'd go in with CanJet, Harmony and Zoom... however I just can't see how Air Canada pilots have rational enough thinking when it coes to fare pay for fare and efficent work.
WJ700.
I think you'd have a hard time telling our Airbus guys they're not efficient at 85 hrs a month and a 20% salary cut. You also have some misconceptions about how we bid. Have another look at what you wrote. Not only is it inaccurate, it's also not true. Our pilots are not fucking the company, the company is fucking us. Yes there is a shortage on the 320 but only because most guys have bid to go on bigger equipment to make more money and to have a better lifestyle. I can remember when the 320 was a great life and good money. It ain't no more. Know why? "It has to compete with the low cost". The Emb should also be paying more. Anyhow, efficiency is a different thing to different companies. I'm glad to see Clive is paying you better. Enjoy it while it lasts. Our latest round of salary negotes is under review by an arbitrator. That's because our management thinks our narrow body fleet pilots get more than WJ while our union claims you guys make more. Go figure.
Tony,
Somehow I knew that would come from you sooner or later." If you don't like it leave". And I thought , for a millisecond , that we could as a unified group make a difference in 09.Yeah Right.
Thanks for the advice on the "greener" pastures.
As for your comment about the contract being a good one(for the most part) . I am not even going there.
Why should a 320 pilot make any more than a 737 pilot doing the SAME JOB? Why do your little jet pilots deserve more money? They don’t even seat 100 people?
The money is in the premium product and long haul. The more big airplanes you have with full big seats in the front, the more cake you make. Maybe once you guys get your triple sevens and roll out your ‘beds’ in the front the company will make money in an operating sense. Competing against domestic carriers (not to mention broke American ones) on such low margins is not a recipe for profit.
The death of Canadian and C3 was a large nail in the coffin off pilots terms and conditions in Canada. Supply and demand is in force as well with one being much greater than the other.
WF9.
"If you don't like it leave" goes for me too. But as bad as things are, I'll still take it thanks. Still the best gig in town. We won't do much in 09. Not because we're not unified but because Milton will once again compare us to the LCC. That's the trend that worries me.
RB.
Our small buses carry anywhere fromm 120 to 160 pax thanx. You're right, we do the same job but again I refer to the fact that our contract is the result of decades of hard work on the part of our group and involved the odd strike now and then. It has taken a beating but still reatains some good stuff for us. We will fight an uphill battle to regain what we lost. Today's environment won't help.
Tony my comment about little jets was the EMJ's, not buses.
You along with every other legacy carrier pilot in the world is in danger. Threat is from low cost yes but again it is still supply and demand. Low cost pilots in Europe and especially the UK for example are paid much better than their Canadian colleagues. This then filters on down the line. With only one major carrier in Canada (I think there is room for 2 and will be at some point), your management is looking around if not below at the competition and rightfully thinking about its ability to compete. Bottom line is it all boils down to the consumer and the premium market in Canada is still a big maybe.Big jets and big seats = bigger pay check.
So as an Airbus driver with Air Canada making any where from 6000.00 per month for a 3rd year up to 8500.00 plus for a 12 year FO...you can't make a decent living?? Captains ranging anywhere from 11.000.00 to 12.500.00 per month based on an average 77 hours per month on the 320 and these are hard living conditions?? (2004 figures) Give me a break!
LCC didn't create these problems...time to quit blaming everyone else for the decline in wages. Looks like your doing ok...maybe a few less wives and one less boat in the driveway wouldn't hurt...
Sorry but hard to listen how unfair your treated when you guys make some pretty good cash! Not to mention all the per diems, travel benefits on your aircraft as well as Star Alliance aircraft. Discount on rooms and meals while travelling on holiday's...
You get paid good money and discounts around the globe...life ain't that bad!
This thread scares me - most of you pilots better pull your heads out of your arses. EMJ pilots make about 33% less than did DC9 pilots (roughly the same size), A320 pilots are making 20% less than a few years ago and the rest of AC took a 15% cut. What's horrible is the number of pilots who can't see what is going on! Pilot salaries are just a portion of a company's bottom line - let employers find savings elsewhere, not from pilots. However they read threads like this and realize most of us are morons and won't fight to preserve what generations of pilots have fought to achieve. It is a race to the bottom and some of you guys are winning. Way to go? Perhaps AC guys have the strongest opinion because they have seen what's at stake, know how it was and how it should be.
Again supply and demand. If Air Canada was swimming in major profits as we speak then the demand for higher wages would be great and they would be handed out. Bottom line is this is not happening and the last time AC lost a few billion, the curtains were inches from falling.
Margins are tight and employee costs are fixed costs somewhat. With Jet A costing an arm and a leg someone/something has to take the hit. AC pilots still get paid well and have a good life. Again if the company turns a big profit, time to ask for a big raise.
B612 wrote:This thread scares me - most of you pilots better pull your heads out of your arses. EMJ pilots make about 33% less than did DC9 pilots (roughly the same size), A320 pilots are making 20% less than a few years ago and the rest of AC took a 15% cut. What's horrible is the number of pilots who can't see what is going on! Pilot salaries are just a portion of a company's bottom line - let employers find savings elsewhere, not from pilots. However they read threads like this and realize most of us are morons and won't fight to preserve what generations of pilots have fought to achieve. It is a race to the bottom and some of you guys are winning. Way to go? Perhaps AC guys have the strongest opinion because they have seen what's at stake, know how it was and how it should be.
Good points but are the wage declines at Canada's Flag carrier a result of LCC's or the whip-sawing between Mainline and Jazz? Seems to me that the RJ deal from the very early 90's started a downward trend where LCC's have made constant advances. The last round was April 2002 when DeCintio and Bauer kept making lower and lower offers to keep the respective jet flying at each others respective division.
I didn't mean to come across as "willing to throw in the towel". I do beleive that IF we all worked together things would improve, but I don't think we can all work together. Many people in the lower ranks of this business are more than willing to step over whomever it takes to get their next big break. I remember breaking into the business (outside of Canadian soil) and some of the Canadians working with me warned that aviation in Canada was much different than the aviation we were experienceing abroad.
To me there is nothing wrong with being a bus driver, there is nothing wrong with working in a post office or a factory. Everyone contributes to society in their own way. I suppose the just of my post was to say we, as pilots, have to keep our egos in check, regardless of the stage of the game. That is also a large part of being a professional pilot.
I am sorry my words struck a nerve. In the past your PMs to me have provided inspiration when I needed it most. I can tell you are a true professional.
"Do Not Use Time or Words Carelessly, Neither Can Be Retrieved"
That advice has been noted.
After re-reading my post and yours, I hope you didn't take any negativity from it as none was intended whatsoever.
I also appreciate what you say about our ego's because it is true, often they can get in the way of things. I completely agree with you that there is nothing wrong with people who are janitors, bus drivers, even lawyers, etc. because I too don't believe our vocation makes us better than the next man or woman.
Great reply, and good reminder to follow the advice I have posted at the bottom of each of my messages.
YVR Dude wrote:
....You get paid good money and discounts around the globe...life ain't that bad!
Your whining doesn't work...
The first time I wrote anything on this forum I knew I was wasting my time. But what I was reading scared me. So I offered some comments, right or wrong, to see if some might build on it for the better. And after so much time I'm even more scared by the attitude I see. Pilots will never be unified in this country. Our salaries will continue to tumble, our lifestyles will continue to detereorate. But that's ok. Know why? My whining doesn't work. Good luck to all.
If you started your career in the 70's you should be on a beach in Florida sipping margaritas and living off your pension in no time! Try not to worry so much, enjoy it while it lasts.
canjet...lalala smart people fly canjet...lalala...bro.
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