Good news and Bad News for FO's in small aircrat

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:54 am

Let me add this fuel to the fire. The higher license you are referring to is the ATPL. Now if you are not going to let a 250 hours pilot log hours, why do you let an instructor log hours? I know a few instructors who have ATPL's and don't take off or land, haven't in months. I've had them as fresh f/o's and shake my head. Not all instructors, just a couple.

When I get a new f/o I would take a 250 hour pilot any day. They are wide eyed, excited and learn at an astronomical rate. CRM? There are a resource. So they don't have 1000 hours in the plane. A student pilot with 3 hours can tell me if there is traffic out the right side, or if number 2 is on fire.

I got my ATPL with a bunch of f/o time on a single pilot certified plane. I'll be more than happy to admit that you can fly it all day by yourself and be fine. The main reason I was there so that it could be operated greater than 8 hours. I'd like to think that I was a resource. The captain could fly while I dealt with passengers or vice versa. I could see to the back right of the airplane where they couldn't. Plus the important part was that I was learning. So when I had the required time to get my A license I could say that I was way beyond where I was when I had 250 hours.

Man I would love to attend one of these think tank meetings where you come up with this shit.

Over the years we have seen much improvement in navigational systems to enhance situational awareness, and a huge improvement in autopilot technology for small aircraft. I think we will see a significant increase in safety as a result, and for once, have to congratulate TC for taking a pro active approach to analysis a potential risk and deal with it.

How do you think this will improve safety? There will still be 250hr pilots in the cockpit. You have done nothing to change the person who can fill the seat. All you have done is found a way to piss that person off.

As Cat said hours mean nothing, well not to the extent that everyone relies upon them. But being in the airplane and landing and taking off is how you build experiece. The longer you do that the better qualified you are for going captain or flying a bigger plane.

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:38 am

This sucks for those of us that have to have the ATPL to go left seat? wtf...anyway until its in the cars its still valid time as long as its required by the operator correct?

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:05 am

Snowgoose.....

you asked me :

How do you think this will improve safety?

the question you asked was in response to my quote. so let me try and answer it. There are of course, more effective ways of keeping the really stupid pilots out of the cockpit, but if I did not hide the bodies well enough they would put me in jail for it.. So

Let me try and make this real simple for you...Read slowly now.

I started this thread.
It was a troll. Pure BS. Get it. Let me say it again. A troll. Pure BS.
I felt bad after a few posts, and confessed. Some saw the humor and posted. One smart fellow even edited his post (which in my opinion is the sign of a real pilot) when I confessed. And then, of course, there was you, and your question .

Do I have to have to explain further?

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:30 am

Ya, I'd like further explanation! Who were you talking to at TC? This is a really stupid idea, I can't bleieve this is going ahead! We should start a petition or something!!!

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:11 am

Troll or not it still got people thinking so I guess we all win.

What about guys padding up the flt time column to increase their total time? I think that's what should be cracked down on. If people bitch about how much time instructors get in the circuit, what about the amount of time a crew gets on the ramp waiting to go? I'll take an instructor over a guy with a bunch of taxi time anyday!

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:15 am

Pratt wrote:Of course every person and situation is different, don't discount the person's possible input just because they only have 250 hrs.

Agreed -

I think the people who don't think a low time guy can contribute have let their egos cloud their view. Or maybe they were so incompetent or more likely insecure in their first FO job that they think it must be that way for everyone.

I was lucky in my first job - great bunch of captains that expected you to contribute as an equal - when guys are counting on you, you get up to speed quickly... when you're just there to read the checklist and tune the radios maybe you lose your sense of worth and pass that on when you make captain...

*edit* With that said of course there are a handful of pilots that are not capable/allowed to contibute in a 2 crew op. But that is the fault of the hiring practices/culture of an operation, thankfully I have not been exposed to that situation...

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:40 am

e ie ei wrote;

Troll or not it still got people thinking so I guess we all win.

Actually you seem to be right, though I hope everyone who reads it understands the TC/CARS thing was BS

Altiplano wrote:

I think the people who don't think a low time guy can contribute have let their egos

Let me add a little balance to that.....I think that a 250 hour pilot fresh out of flight school who thinks he is qualified to step into a turbine, pressurized, twin and hard IFR has let their egos color their thinking.

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:01 pm

ei ei owe said:

What about guys padding up the flt time column to increase their total time? I think that's what should be cracked down on. If people bitch about how much time instructors get in the circuit, what about the amount of time a crew gets on the ramp waiting to go? I'll take an instructor over a guy with a bunch of taxi time anyday!

Last time I looked, flight schools charged by the FLIGHT hour, not by AIR time. Are you saying that flight instructors are only logging time spent in the air and not any of the time spent on the ground? Or that instructors would never spend more time on the ground than absolutely neccessary after the engine has started and the aircraft begins moving for the anticipated flight? Or that instructors would never encounter a delay for traffic or another resason that would delay their departure? Guess things have changed since I did my training.

TTJJ · Post by **TTJJ** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:21 pm

The scary part isn’t that:

A young pilot these days may have some C.R.M,
But have naught to withdraw from their A.T.M.
Give 'em competent training,
Approaches …while raining
God, some think that they can’t find their own B.U.M.!

The scary part is that 18 hours after admitting to fishing without a license (with an un-baited hook yet by the photo!) people are still biting.

That is scary…

beechy · Post by **beechy** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:38 pm

So you can't become a first officer on a twin cause you have no experience.

You can't instruct because it is not respectable time, by the logic of grumpy old high timers who don't give a F**k about anyone but themselves.

You can't work in the bush unless you work two summers on the dock for piss and a pack of gum.

So my question is such.....how the F**k do you get started in this industry....obviously not by reading this forum. By all your logics you are gods and no one should be allowed into you kingdom.

Get your heads out of your asses!! If your not happy about the quality of FO's, train them.

If you don't like Instructing time, hire guys with 250hours. Give em' a chance, if you don't like them fire them.....

As proof that anyone can fly a king air i offer this......stand outside the transport canada hanger in YOW. Watch one start up and take 30 minutes to leave. When they come back in go and talk to them....you will quickly realize that it takes nothing special to fly a king air.

Now you will all say i am arrogant.....well i am not....i do not think i could walk into a turbine and safely fly it.....i would love however to become trained on one. I would love to hear all the advice i could get from high time guys.....but you are unaccessable.

Too many ego's...low timers and high timers......floating around.....grow up.....

beechy · Post by **beechy** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:42 pm

BTW i realize this is a troll.....but felt i shhould chime in.....

Oh and one more thing.....how does working ramp for two years help your flying abilities?

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:14 pm

TTJJ:

It is isn't it..

And to Beechey:

I am going to go out on a limb here, and suggest there may be a little hostility in your posts.

Old guys who want a qualified FO with them. companies that should get their heads out of their butts and train them.....and egos egos egos.

do you think your perspective might be just a little skewed?

And I am going to say it again...IT WAS A TROLL. PURE BS.

might be · Post by **might be** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:03 pm

Bull Shit !!

beechy · Post by **beechy** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:29 pm

TK.....maybe ever so slightly skewed....mostly because it is annoying to listen to guys whine about how thier FO's suck and are useless.....when here I am not useless and more then willing to learn. My point is that not everyone who is willing to work a ramp job for 2 years makes a good FO. There are some good guys out there with low time who could do the job well.

But i am not just blaming high time people, my peers are screwing things up for the rest of us to...with thier ego's. Its true not everyone is gods gift.....I am not....however i am not stupid, useless or an ego maniac. Just a younger guy trying to make it.

As for hostility, not really.....honesty yes. I don't mind instructing to build time, i am learning alot, but don't then sit and tell me it is useless time and that i am TIT for doing it. At least it is time building.....

BTW did you copy your name from the Green day drummer? Not as an insult or anything just interested

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:49 pm

beechy:

Some of us understand.

I am in your eyes old, I have high time and if you read my posts I support young low time pilots 100%.

I have had trillions of FO's over the years and some of the really low timers were born naturals, I gave them all the flying.

Some low and high timers couldn't find their asses with a set of moose antlers.

They did not fly with me for long.

Cat

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:54 pm

beechey.

first, for the record, I am dead against fixed wing pilots working ground jobs in the city. In the bush, and for the roatary pilots, it is good to work a month or two to learn the ropes and the idea that flying is a job..I think it helps. But...and this is a but bigger than Oprahs, I am dead set against city pilots being used as ground workers, customers service etc etc...My feelings aside as long as their arepilots around who are willing to do this it will never stop as there will always be companies willing to take advantage of the situation.

I am not sure about this drummer....Trey Kule is the anglazsized version of a French Canadian express "tres cool" Play on words, nothing more.

beechy · Post by **beechy** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:42 pm

I know Cat, you are one of the few it seems who gets that there is a problem....Always look forward to reading your posts! Its not you, i think older guys see it......it is the middle aged, late 20's to early 40's guys who are messed up in thier thinking, IMHO.

Working ramp is cool if you are training and need money. But you shouldn't have to do it to "earn a spot" in the right seat, it seems so wrong.

For real though, thanks to guys like Cat and Clunk and whomever else support low time guys. We need more people like you....the rest of you can learn alot from them. We happen to be the future.

Anyways i am really enjoying my work, and am not bothered by working long days to get my hours instructing (it is the most important job in the industry). But i would like to know once I have enough time that there will be places to go.....In the hands of some people on this site there won't be.

The drummer is a bit of a dink.....but none the less they make catchy music, well they did in the day at least. I think he spells it Tre Cool...

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:54 pm

TK wrote:

to Beechey ... there may be a little hostility in your posts

Yeah, no kidding ... recently he posted that he was hoping I would crash and die soon, and I've never even met the guy. He has some real anger issues to resolve. Hopefully he finds someone to talk to about it.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:46 pm

working long days to get my hours instructing (it is the most important job in the industry).

...yes, much more important than landing a heli on the 401 to take some critical patient to a downtown hospital....please tell me you are joking

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:56 pm

In my opinion instructing is the most important job in aviation.

Without instructors there would be no pilots landing a Helicopter on the 401 ( which by the way is dog nuts simple. ) or anywhere else.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:58 pm

...but less instructors means less pilots means more demand which means higher pay....hey...this is all the instructors faults!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:05 pm

The reason for low pilot pay is pilots will work for low wages.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:21 pm

isn't that the unfortunate truth...but if you turn down the job, there will always be someone else to take it...they may not be as experienced, but as long as they are insurable, most operators don't care.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:40 pm

It has always been thus.

beechy · Post by **beechy** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:06 pm

Jesus Hedley i never wished for you to die......i merely stated a fact.....you are more likely to kill yourself on your motorcycle doing stupid things on the 401 (Which you claimed to do) then you were to kill someone else (like myself) in the air, since you choose not to talk on the radio while doing aerobatics in the circuit....learn to read for gods sake........oh and we have met, though you wouldn't remember......

(ALEX) Answer..... the person who taught you to land a helicopter

(JohnnyHotRocks) Question......Who is my former flight instructor?....

Good you win.......so i guess that means your instructor is really responsible for saving the life too..... hmmm.....ergo he and yourself are equally unimportant in the grand scheme. Just like everyone else.....

Just have fun with what you do, and stop worrying about giving others a chance to have some fun too, we all deserve a chance...And smile, it makes the world a happier place to be.