Entering vs Established in a hold

[TheCheez]

On a direct entry, the first time you cross the fix and turn to outbound are you established? Do you need to complete one turn around, similar to the other entrys and call established on your 2nd pass of the fix?

Please include a reference if you know it.

[mellow_pilot]

Theoretically you're not established til you have 1 min I/B legs, no?

[TheCheez]

Lets assume its a DME hold then, cause its not quite was I was after

The reference that I've found so far said you're established once you've completed the entry. For a direct entry the description was along the lines of cross the fix and turn to the outbound. It was a the military's instrument flying book though.

So far I've only found an american instrument procedures manual which said that on direct entry, you're established on the first pass but my instructor isn't buying it. Yes its picky, such is life.

[Aeros]

Lets assume its a DME hold then, cause its not quite was I was after

The reference that I've found so far said you're established once you've completed the entry. For a direct entry the description was along the lines of cross the fix and turn to the outbound. It was a the military's instrument flying book though.

I was able to find the same thing in the AIM (Section 10.5)

ATC may also request that the pilot report “established in the hold”. The pilot is to report “established” when crossing the fix after having completed the entry procedure.

It defines the entry procedure to be:

Sector 3 procedure (direct entry) is:
(a) Upon reaching the fix, turn right and follow the holding pattern.

My Instrument Procedures Manual is a little bit clearer:

ATC MAY ALSO REQUEST that the pilot report "ESTABLISHED IN THE HOLD". The pilot is to report "established" (if requested) only when crossing the fix after having completed the entry procedure.

It also uses the same description of the direct entry procedure as the AIM.

Using the Instrument Procedures Manual it says you are to repot established when crossing the fix after completing the entry procedure -- to me it sounds like that means the second time you cross over the fix (Or in your words -- you do need to complete one turn around).

[mellow_pilot]

Sounds good to me, but remember, don't tell them you're established in the hold if you were out by 30 deg and 2 min on the last pass around. Tell them you're established only once you're established! If you you're not flying a pattern that resembles a standard (or non-standard for that matter) hold, don't tell someone you are.

(always tell the truth on the radio, keeps you from bumping into things)

[TheCheez]

Thanks for the details Aeros sounds right on, looks like I lose this one

Also sorry for not putting in the direct quotes I didn't have the books on hand when I was writing.

Cheers!

[mduffy]

I don't have a reference for you guys on this one, but I'm fairly certain that on a direct entry hold you are established upon crossing the fix for the first time 'outbound'. In this case, it will be when you are abeam the fix, on the outbound track. Though I can't tell you how you would determine (precisely) this position on a DME hold. There is certainly no room for trigonometry in any cockpit I've seen.

I respect your interest in the correct details, but am pleased to be able to tell you that most people just call it when they cross the beacon for the first time - if they call it at all.

[TheCheez]

I don't have a reference for you guys on this one, but I'm fairly certain that on a direct entry hold you are established upon crossing the fix for the first time 'outbound'. In this case, it will be when you are abeam the fix, on the outbound track. Though I can't tell you how you would determine (precisely) this position on a DME hold. There is certainly no room for trigonometry in any cockpit I've seen.

I respect your interest in the correct details, but am pleased to be able to tell you that most people just call it when they cross the beacon for the first time - if they call it at all.

Yeah thats kinda what I told the instructor but being the military, they're interested in the exact details even if Wpg Center could care less.

[More Hawker Than Sidley]

HI Guys/Gals....My understanding of the Entry/Est'd is that once you have crossed the fix Outbound or Abeam the fix whichever is the later of the two...then you are Est'd on a Direct entry Hold Procedure. We more or less use this as the criteria because this is also the point/position you would be in when you start your Timing for the Outbound leg. It follows that if we use the 4T's...Time/Turn/Throttle/Talk then it might be a little out of sequence since if we take our timing over the fix it won't give us an accurate outbound timing....so we modify it for accuracy. Since the Talk is the last item then by that time we are generall established Outbound with our Time taken Abeam....I don't have a reference other than TP2076 (Instrument Procedures Manual). It carries on from the Entry/Est'd to the Timing info. HOpe this helps. mhts

[PHD]

Well,

Only speeking from experince, and having Recomended 10 Group I and 6 group III. Some were with TC and some were with a DFTEI.

With this whole Direct entry passing the fix the first time considered Established ................... !!!!!!!! thats the unforbiden subject so to speek.

On many arrgument between DFTEI V.S TC it is not considered to be Established in the hold untill you pass the fix the second time.

It just happens that in the direct entry you are within a range of heading that makes it look like that you are established..,.......

According to more than one TC inspector to what they want to hear in a direct entry the first passage is entering the hold.............

Some DFTEI say no way................. but I am here to teach the basic of airmanship to new IFR pilots where hopefully they dont get their ass into icing conditions and realize that the A/C is not equiped or able to handle icing.......I teach the basics to IFR and hope to god that they have more commen sense to not go flying on their first flight IFR right down to minima's after they ve passed the Groupe one.

so back to the subject, take a look at the IPM again as well as the AIM in the holding section closly.

So my conclusion to this is that Direct entry in the first passage is entering the hold just like an off-sett or parallal entry first passage is entering......

again this is the conclusion after having even some of the TC guys argue back and forth on what it should be along with a bunch of DFTI.....


so good luck with everything with the training, stay safe and once you have your group I dont blast off in IFR Minima's on your first IFR flight.......Give your self some minima's till you gain some experince and start lowering it a bit by bit till you get to IFR minima's....

IE. 1000 feet Celling and maybe 1 mile for the first 10 hours.....

gives ya some sort of an escape goat to play with
.....

[Hedley]

Only Transport would get so worked up about something so unimportant

[mellow_pilot]

That's all well and good til you get f-ed on a ride for screwing up sonething ss meaningless.

There is no point arguing with TC over something like this. Just do it the way they want. As always, cover your butt. They can't argue with you if you use standard entries and call entering the first time round, established once you've achieved 1 min I/B legs. (assuming that's the appropriate timing)

Why fail a ride and put yourself through crap arguing over something like this? Do it for the ride, in the real world, do what makes sense.

[mellow_pilot]

Not everyone from the 'real world' is great. I think you'd still have a mix of good and bad like we have now. Same as any other industry. Morons are out there. Eventually you'll run into them. I know I have. (I've also been a moron from time to time, but I like to think that that's the exception, not the rule.)