Hey all,
I'm asking this question because I just can seem to let my dream die. I applied back in '04 for the Air Force. I made it though all the tests and interviews, and was getting ready to go to aircrew selection, when I got the bad news back from the recruiting officer handling my application. V2 eyesight. It pretty much blew my hopes out of the water, and came as a total shock, as before that eye exam and many times after I have been told by examiners that I have 20/20 or better vision. So chalk it up to some wierd quirk, and maybe the early morning appointment with the opthimoligist (sp?).
I was told that there is no retest possible, and basically nothing at all I can do. So I let it go.
Fast forward to the present, and I'm now almost done my CPL and still cannot get the military out of my head. It's what I wanted to do my entire life, and even though I'm almost ready to go out and get a flying job, I just want to make sure I tried everything I could to get into the Military as a pilot.
So I ask, does anyone serving today know anything about a way to retest, protest, redo etc? Have you ever met someone you served with that had similar issues? I'm just hoping with the (supposed) pilot shortage in the military, there is something that I may be able to do today, that wasn't available two years ago when I first applied.
I'm currently 27, almost done my CPL and have a university degree.
Thanks for listening to the sob story, I just don't want to let the dream go out with a whimper.
Oates
Another Forces Question: Eyesight
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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mellow_pilot
- Rank 10
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I'm not sure what your current situation is, eyes wise. Have you had an eye exam since that fateful day? Perhaps you could show that it was an annomaly?
This might help to understand the requirements:
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medi ... req_e.html
This might help to understand the requirements:
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medi ... req_e.html
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
Get a retest. If it's that important to you, do it out of your own pocket.
Exact situation happened to a friend, CFRC told him no retest, forget it, you're done, go away etc etc. He got a second opinion, and low and behold, he's been flying for the CF since 99.
PM for more info (not that there's much more I can tell you).
Good luck.
Exact situation happened to a friend, CFRC told him no retest, forget it, you're done, go away etc etc. He got a second opinion, and low and behold, he's been flying for the CF since 99.
PM for more info (not that there's much more I can tell you).
Good luck.
Mellow, yeah I've had eye tests since then, and all have been 20/20 or better.
Gryphon, thanks for the advice, thats exactly what I was hoping to hear. I will go back with a full second opinion and try and get as far as I can before heading forth with the commerical career.
Thanks,
Oates
Gryphon, thanks for the advice, thats exactly what I was hoping to hear. I will go back with a full second opinion and try and get as far as I can before heading forth with the commerical career.
Thanks,
Oates
Hi oates, sounds familiar!
Imagine this situation. I had a friend who inked a 12 year ROTP contract and found out one day in IAP/BOTP that his vision did not meet the Pilot criteria. Yes, he was in St.Jean, was accepted as a Pilot but his vision did not meet the criteria. He had to pick another trade or release given the situation.
I know of two other applicants who both had V1 and "meets criteria" written on their examination sheet. They passed everything, were medically fit and awaiting their aircrew date. When they called back to hear when they were headed for Trenton, they were told they did not meet the vision requirement. Haven't talked to either of them since but they said they were going to look into getting a second opinion.
I agree with the others, if you want it that bad, give it a shot. Good luck!!
Imagine this situation. I had a friend who inked a 12 year ROTP contract and found out one day in IAP/BOTP that his vision did not meet the Pilot criteria. Yes, he was in St.Jean, was accepted as a Pilot but his vision did not meet the criteria. He had to pick another trade or release given the situation.
I know of two other applicants who both had V1 and "meets criteria" written on their examination sheet. They passed everything, were medically fit and awaiting their aircrew date. When they called back to hear when they were headed for Trenton, they were told they did not meet the vision requirement. Haven't talked to either of them since but they said they were going to look into getting a second opinion.
I agree with the others, if you want it that bad, give it a shot. Good luck!!
Hey Oates,
Like others have said, get a retest. Keep in mind however there are other things besides how good your vision is (20/20 or better) that they look at, including color vision, eye muscle balance, depth perception, etc - could it have been one of those other things?
Anyways, good luck!
Like others have said, get a retest. Keep in mind however there are other things besides how good your vision is (20/20 or better) that they look at, including color vision, eye muscle balance, depth perception, etc - could it have been one of those other things?
Anyways, good luck!
Why do something now when you can do it later??
Hey Oates, I really feel for you.
Now all other posts were correct in their statements. However, I'm giving you another "bottom line" option. I know you don't want to hear this, but how badly do you want it?
Worst case, find a trade/profession that you can tolerate; get in and get your foot in the proverbial door. Now remember, this approach will take MUCH longer than the other suggestions, but this is the last resort. Get qualified in a trade/profession (Navigator, Weapons Officer, Air Traffic Controller, etc) Once you are qualified and have worked in your trade/profession for a few years (at least you're getting paid as an officer) apply for a "remuster". That's what they used to do in the old days!
Sometimes it works. Unfortunately, like I said this a function of YEARS and PATIENCE. You're young and time is on your side.
Good Luck
Now all other posts were correct in their statements. However, I'm giving you another "bottom line" option. I know you don't want to hear this, but how badly do you want it?
Worst case, find a trade/profession that you can tolerate; get in and get your foot in the proverbial door. Now remember, this approach will take MUCH longer than the other suggestions, but this is the last resort. Get qualified in a trade/profession (Navigator, Weapons Officer, Air Traffic Controller, etc) Once you are qualified and have worked in your trade/profession for a few years (at least you're getting paid as an officer) apply for a "remuster". That's what they used to do in the old days!
Sometimes it works. Unfortunately, like I said this a function of YEARS and PATIENCE. You're young and time is on your side.
Good Luck
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Beacon Final
- Rank 5
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- Location: not my parents basement!
cfrc
Being involved with the CF I can tell you this. CFRC are crooks and losers. The ppl put in that dept are there b/c they can't do anything else or are not good looking enought to be a Public Affairs Persons. Typical goverment routine....
If you cant Hunt down someone in CFRC that seems to give a dam to let you serve your country then get more than one retest done. (Very current) Bring it all to a CFRC if they shoot you down again, request to leave a letter in your application file stating your situation and requesting a written response from the flight surgeon stating what section you failed. Then if a civi doctor says you meet the standards that the CF says you failed, you can as a private citizen file a griefence with CF (not DND) this will require a lawyer and maybe your MP or someone from that office. I know for a fact they pull this stunt when cash is low and they have accepted to many ppl for the Pilot slots. Things are different now, we are getting more 130s and hopefully some C-17s.... etc etc.
This is possible... you need the right people in your corner and patience. Like ppl have posted before they know ppl this has happened too.
Oh and if you do stay one the civilian side of things, why join the reserves? They are very few airforce reserve trades in the CF.... mostly Army and Navy jobs and very few officer spots.
Good luck
BF
If you cant Hunt down someone in CFRC that seems to give a dam to let you serve your country then get more than one retest done. (Very current) Bring it all to a CFRC if they shoot you down again, request to leave a letter in your application file stating your situation and requesting a written response from the flight surgeon stating what section you failed. Then if a civi doctor says you meet the standards that the CF says you failed, you can as a private citizen file a griefence with CF (not DND) this will require a lawyer and maybe your MP or someone from that office. I know for a fact they pull this stunt when cash is low and they have accepted to many ppl for the Pilot slots. Things are different now, we are getting more 130s and hopefully some C-17s.... etc etc.
This is possible... you need the right people in your corner and patience. Like ppl have posted before they know ppl this has happened too.
Oh and if you do stay one the civilian side of things, why join the reserves? They are very few airforce reserve trades in the CF.... mostly Army and Navy jobs and very few officer spots.
Good luck
BF
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BlueandYellow
- Rank 0
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- Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Here's a question: If you've had laser eye surgery, is it possible to get past the medical exams?
I've been trying to find out more about when the CF is going to allow laser eye surgery, but I've heard mixed answers. A lot of CF air force personnel claim that the changes are coming soon, but no one knows how soon. Apparently, pilots in the USAF and US Navy are allowed in with laser eye surgery, which would make it seem like it should only be a matter of time before Canada accepts it.
Other people have said, "Don't count on it" because there are plenty of perfect specimens applying right now.
Even just trying to find out if the regulations are actually under review is difficult. The most interesting thing I've heard so far was from a CF pilot in a very "visible" CF position. He said that if military flying is really what I want, then just apply. Apparently, he knows of a person who had laser eye surgery and made it past the medical anyway.
Now, "sneaking" into the CF isn't something I'm ready to do, but if anyone knows more about the current laser eye issue, it'd be appreciated.
Joining a different trade and remustering when laser eye surgery is accepted was suggested to me as well, but again I've heard both views on that. Some say there's no way they'd let you switch after training you up for, example ATC. Others say there is a chance of remustering after you've served "a few" years.
Just some thoughts.
BnY
I've been trying to find out more about when the CF is going to allow laser eye surgery, but I've heard mixed answers. A lot of CF air force personnel claim that the changes are coming soon, but no one knows how soon. Apparently, pilots in the USAF and US Navy are allowed in with laser eye surgery, which would make it seem like it should only be a matter of time before Canada accepts it.
Other people have said, "Don't count on it" because there are plenty of perfect specimens applying right now.
Even just trying to find out if the regulations are actually under review is difficult. The most interesting thing I've heard so far was from a CF pilot in a very "visible" CF position. He said that if military flying is really what I want, then just apply. Apparently, he knows of a person who had laser eye surgery and made it past the medical anyway.
Now, "sneaking" into the CF isn't something I'm ready to do, but if anyone knows more about the current laser eye issue, it'd be appreciated.
Joining a different trade and remustering when laser eye surgery is accepted was suggested to me as well, but again I've heard both views on that. Some say there's no way they'd let you switch after training you up for, example ATC. Others say there is a chance of remustering after you've served "a few" years.
Just some thoughts.
BnY
Right now, the situation, as far as I have been aware, is that laser eye surgery is a no-no with the CF as a pilot.BlueandYellow wrote:Here's a question: If you've had laser eye surgery, is it possible to get past the medical exams?
I've been trying to find out more about when the CF is going to allow laser eye surgery, but I've heard mixed answers. A lot of CF air force personnel claim that the changes are coming soon, but no one knows how soon. Apparently, pilots in the USAF and US Navy are allowed in with laser eye surgery, which would make it seem like it should only be a matter of time before Canada accepts it.
Other people have said, "Don't count on it" because there are plenty of perfect specimens applying right now.
Even just trying to find out if the regulations are actually under review is difficult. The most interesting thing I've heard so far was from a CF pilot in a very "visible" CF position. He said that if military flying is really what I want, then just apply. Apparently, he knows of a person who had laser eye surgery and made it past the medical anyway.
Now, "sneaking" into the CF isn't something I'm ready to do, but if anyone knows more about the current laser eye issue, it'd be appreciated.
Joining a different trade and remustering when laser eye surgery is accepted was suggested to me as well, but again I've heard both views on that. Some say there's no way they'd let you switch after training you up for, example ATC. Others say there is a chance of remustering after you've served "a few" years.
Just some thoughts.
BnY
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BlueandYellow
- Rank 0
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Do you like camping? Ya?
How about long walks in the woods??
Ya, don't get suckered into signing on any dotted lines unless you're sure you want to do the job you're signing for. I've seen a few people get screwed thinking that way. At the same time, I've seen people get what they've wanted.. but you can't count on it is what I'm trying to say I guess.
Yes, it is possible to transfer once you're in, but personally, I would be very apprehensive/cautious.. something along those lines.
Skosh
How about long walks in the woods??
Ya, don't get suckered into signing on any dotted lines unless you're sure you want to do the job you're signing for. I've seen a few people get screwed thinking that way. At the same time, I've seen people get what they've wanted.. but you can't count on it is what I'm trying to say I guess.
Yes, it is possible to transfer once you're in, but personally, I would be very apprehensive/cautious.. something along those lines.
Skosh
I have to agree with Skosh....it's possible, but I wouldn't trust it. Unless the trade is desperate for people AND you're current trade is willing to let you go.....either way, it's not a quick process.
Surgery is still not approved. They take photos of your cornea (they used to anyways) to check for it....can you beat it, dunno.
Surgery is still not approved. They take photos of your cornea (they used to anyways) to check for it....can you beat it, dunno.
no go
No go with laser eye surgery no matter what kinda of laser surgery you had, whether or not you are already a pilot, or even if you have military experience etc. That said the guy who was to interview me told me to not give up and keep an eye on the rule. It was reviewed in a report in 2003 and laser eye surgery was accepted for all trades aircrew included except for pilot. (Pilot is the only trade left not accepting laser surgery). The report did state that they would review the rule again when more data was available, but did not specifiy any timeline. The captain I talked with said it could change tommorow or 100 years from now, but he said all things point to it being reviewed again in the not too distant future.
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.
Blarg! Don't go in doing something you hate while waiting a life time to do something you love. Your working? Building time? My opinion, for what it is worth, get a second opinion and play that card. DON'T try and remuster unless you really want to do something in the CF. You'll spend years out of the cockpit, flightdeck whatever the F they call it now, thinking what the F have I done. Your superiors may squash your CT. I have heard of troops waiting years to transfer. They finally give up when their contract ends. I have heard of others, a very small number mind you, having no problems. I guess it depends on who is above you. By then you may have climbed the civie world and not think twice about it. A very close friend of mine tried to remuster and he waited the term of his contract for that to happen. Needless to say, he is no longer with the CF.
Seriously, good luck. I know what it is like to spend every second thinking about wanting to be in. Keep us posted but get a second opinion and play that card. Sometimes things don't happen because someone else (if you will) has other plans for us...
Seriously, good luck. I know what it is like to spend every second thinking about wanting to be in. Keep us posted but get a second opinion and play that card. Sometimes things don't happen because someone else (if you will) has other plans for us...
Found somelinks on the Medical standards etc for the forces. Hopy you find these links helpful.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies ... 1=7&Lev2=3
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies ... 1=7&Lev2=3
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/pdf/cfpn10_01_ef.pdf
Go to page 4 ^ ^ ^
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medi ... req_e.html
Last link here is probably the best, although technical.
It specifically discusses Visual Acuity.
And this exerpt is probably what you are looking for:
# The Canadian Forces have long treated refractive surgery as a personal decision on the part of the member. If the member is willing to accept the financial burden and the potential career implications associated with a less than desired outcome, then the Canadian Forces have generally not interfered. Serving aircrew members and aircrew candidates, however, have been restricted from taking advantage of this policy on the grounds that there was insufficient information to predict how the altered cornea would respond to environmental stresses of flight such as acceleration and hypoxia. There was also concern about the flight safety hazards associated with potential complications, such as glare, photophobia, haze and halo effects.
# In June 1999, a panel of highly qualified specialists from across North America met at DRDC Toronto (formerly DRDC Toronto (CFEME)) to discuss the issue of laser refractive surgery within the context of Canadian Forces air operations. As a result of these deliberations, the following revisions to the Flight Surgeon Guidelines has been implemented:
1. Laser refractive surgery will continue to be medically disqualifying for either entry into or retention in the Pilot classification. Quality of vision and the response of the altered cornea to ambient flight conditions continue to be a concern. Ongoing research in the United States Navy and the United States Air Force will be monitored closely with the view of revising this directive for pilots in the future.
2. Laser refractive surgery is considered acceptable for entry into and retention in all non-pilot aircrew classifications providing certain criteria are met.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies ... 1=7&Lev2=3
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies ... 1=7&Lev2=3
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/pdf/cfpn10_01_ef.pdf
Go to page 4 ^ ^ ^
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medi ... req_e.html
Last link here is probably the best, although technical.
It specifically discusses Visual Acuity.
And this exerpt is probably what you are looking for:
# The Canadian Forces have long treated refractive surgery as a personal decision on the part of the member. If the member is willing to accept the financial burden and the potential career implications associated with a less than desired outcome, then the Canadian Forces have generally not interfered. Serving aircrew members and aircrew candidates, however, have been restricted from taking advantage of this policy on the grounds that there was insufficient information to predict how the altered cornea would respond to environmental stresses of flight such as acceleration and hypoxia. There was also concern about the flight safety hazards associated with potential complications, such as glare, photophobia, haze and halo effects.
# In June 1999, a panel of highly qualified specialists from across North America met at DRDC Toronto (formerly DRDC Toronto (CFEME)) to discuss the issue of laser refractive surgery within the context of Canadian Forces air operations. As a result of these deliberations, the following revisions to the Flight Surgeon Guidelines has been implemented:
1. Laser refractive surgery will continue to be medically disqualifying for either entry into or retention in the Pilot classification. Quality of vision and the response of the altered cornea to ambient flight conditions continue to be a concern. Ongoing research in the United States Navy and the United States Air Force will be monitored closely with the view of revising this directive for pilots in the future.
2. Laser refractive surgery is considered acceptable for entry into and retention in all non-pilot aircrew classifications providing certain criteria are met.
...and then I got paid to fly....
I just wanted to say a quick thanks for all the input and support. I'll definitely go back and get a couple more professional opinions on all the chriteria listed online, and if they both come back as V1 eyesight, I will hopefully take it all the way through an appeal.
I will keep you posted on the process, hopefully it will be able to help others with a similar situation.
Oates
I will keep you posted on the process, hopefully it will be able to help others with a similar situation.
Oates
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mellow_pilot
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They take some pretty pictures of your eyes at the aircrew medical. I don't think you could get past the computers.BlueandYellow wrote:Yes, but I've heard of eyes healing so well that the optometrist says, "You can't even tell you've had surgery." It makes one wonder...
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
I've been doing some digging, and it seems there may be some truth to the rumors of changing vision requirements.... well maybe truth is a bad word, but here is a link to a newspaper story i picked up from army.ca
In it, they talk of looking at the vision requirements.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/natio ... f6&k=71334
fingers crossed
In it, they talk of looking at the vision requirements.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/natio ... f6&k=71334
fingers crossed
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mellow_pilot
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politically_incorrect
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Can someone explain why the military is so choosy about eyesight? Where is the justification (other than "we've always done it that way") for having higher standards than what are deemed acceptable for a civilian pilot with 350 pax on board?
Makes no sense to me whatsoever, other than it is in line with countless other things the military does, seemingly to perpetuate the image that they are boneheaded for the sake of being boneheaded.
Makes no sense to me whatsoever, other than it is in line with countless other things the military does, seemingly to perpetuate the image that they are boneheaded for the sake of being boneheaded.
Until someone is shooting at you...
If you read the writings of old fighter pilots, the first thing they will tell you is that you've got to see the other guy first..
Besides, this way they can weed out all us people who don't quite have the top gun look..
At the end of the day, the military can do what they want in selection. They could decide that they don't like your haircut and deny you..
If you read the writings of old fighter pilots, the first thing they will tell you is that you've got to see the other guy first..
Besides, this way they can weed out all us people who don't quite have the top gun look..
At the end of the day, the military can do what they want in selection. They could decide that they don't like your haircut and deny you..
In the military there is a greater probability of encountering flight situations that would increase the G-force on your body. The more severe your myopia the greater the probability of retinal detachment. G-forces acting on the eye don't help this situation. Its not so much the vision requirement (though getting sand under a contact, when flying in the desert would be an issue) its the risk of retinal detachment.
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mellow_pilot
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