Bullying vs Mentoring

[CLguy]

I am hoping someone can explain to me why or how this industry has been allowed to deteriorate from mentoring new pilots to down right bullying them. I had heard lots of horror stories the last couple of years but witnessed it first hand this past summer how young aspiring pilots are treated. I must say it really saddens me that this industry has sunk to a level where we feel it is OK to eat our young. The really sad part of this is it isn't coming from Managers but fellow pilots.

I have discussed this with the senior guys that I know in the industry and none of us can ever recall a time in our careers where we were bullied. Everyone I talked to including myself can only remember be mentored and taken under the wings of the senior guy and taught everything they know. Working for an operation was like being part of a fraternity. You worked hard together and you played hard together. Everyone was a friend and treated as part of the team.

Why has it changed? Is it because it is no longer acceptable to beat your wife or kick the dog, so you now need to vent your frustrations or make up for the lack of length between your legs by bullying a lonely dockhand or ramp rat?

Am I wrong about what young aspiring pilots must endure to make it in this industry nowadays? Are these instances the exception or are they the rule in today’s industry?

[. ._]

I thought bullying went out the window with Ernest Gann's generation. Now it's all CRM and teamwork. No?

Well, once I get a pilot job and someone starts bullying me, they'll be in for a surprise. They'll be so won over by politeness, professionalism and humour- they'll have to quit their job!

This old dog doesn't take any shit.

-istp

[Golden Flyer]

I thought bullying went out the window with Ernest Gann's generation. Now it's all CRM and teamwork. No?

Well, once I get a pilot job and someone starts bullying me, they'll be in for a surprise. They'll be so won over by politeness, professionalism and humour- they'll have to quit their job!

This old dog doesn't take any shit.

-istp

I'm right with you! I dont take shit from no one.... Believe me I've seen it before, a instructor got so pissed at the student for not being able to decipher the metar. An international student from India who came to Canada to get some good training so that he could go back home and meet their booming economy. Result: A smart guy who's confidence crushed, solo'ed later than he was actually suppose to etc.... etc... etc... THAT SUCKS! My instructor didn't get mad at me for not being able to hold altitude for the first bit, only pushed me. A few times for the first bit I was brought up on bumpy conditions which forced me to want to hold the damn thing steady instead of having the aircraft control me. After those couple bumpy flights, I claim C-172's as MY BITCH!

[Wburns]

Well i witnessed it this season, actually i was on the butt end of it. I was working for a company in NW Ontario and it started pretty good. I found out quickly that this guy was going to be tough to work for. A little about myself, I'm an a young AME with Comm license bout 120 hrs float time. Not much but enough to land a dock job. I'd worked hard in the industry earning my AME ticket on heavy aircraft. I was pretty gunho early in the season to find a job with a float operator. Left BC and headed to ontario. And shortly after I did find work on a dock. I worked hard and like I'd never had before nothing was good enough, helping on the maint. side, dock form dusk till dawn. I didn't spin a prop for the 3 months. While being horribly disrespected, insulted.........it went on and on. Built a cabin in the very little spare time we had...... One day he flipped out because i wasn't tying rebar like he would. 'Look i've been lockwiring airplanes long enough, I can twist some wire'. That was about it.... I quit the next day. Never felt so taken advantage of, disrespected,.......I don't know what to say.

I don't know if I'll giver next season. I enjoy working as an AME. I got my job back with kelowna Flightcraft. I have such a bad taste for the float industry now. Any advice??? It can't all be that bad? This was terrible......If any other low tiem guys out there..look out for Eugene Halley and River Air, it isn't worth it.

[Golden Flyer]

One More Thing!... This has been a thought of mine for a while, call it stupid if you will. I believe flight instructing should be considered more of a profession. A stage where you can make a career out of it and enjoy life from doing that. I've met instructors who are just in for the time. If I could change the industry around, I would push more ex-airline guys into flight instructing in which they could make incredible sums of money while bringing the young ones up and have nothing to worry about! With that being said, the training will be a more difficult proscess from the standards Transport Canada developed. The requirement standards for one to get a job flying a twin would then be lowered (i.e. Piper Aztec, Seminole etc..) Degree's? A Nescessary! Just a thought....

P.S. Just An Opinion

[Cat Driver]

Wburns:

It really pisses me off to read that poeple are treated like crap by employers.

There used to be good ones out there, I wonder if there are any left.

Why didn't you cold cock the prick when you quit?

Cat

[...]

I am hoping someone can explain to me why or how this industry has been allowed to deteriorate from mentoring new pilots to down right bullying them. I had heard lots of horror stories the last couple of years but witnessed it first hand this past summer how young aspiring pilots are treated.

It's the only way weak minded people can function on a daily bases. Suppress the innocent. It's an age old tactic.

However, those few people that truly want to make positive changes to the industry culture are looked upon by some Jurassic icons as a threat to their own agenda's.

But I guess it's easy to forget ones humble beginings (if applicable) and treat others like shyte...I find those that had an uphill climb in the industry tend to be more respectful of those up and comers.

For those that haven't forgotten their difficult start in this industry, Avcanada will be commencing a cyber mentor program which will soon be implemented once we start asking for mentor volunteers.

My advice to those newbies being bullied….

ignore the background noise.

[co-joe]

I can't count how many times I've been reminded that "this is only a single pilot airplane and your only here for insurance". Not all companies have this mentality thankfuly. Where I am now I'm part of the crew and have never been made to feel un necessary, but the last 2 companies I fleww for, BIG difference in mentality across the board.

[Spokes]

Instructors getting mad at students??!!! This has got to be a joke. Since when was this allowed. If I had an instructor 'get mad' at me like that, they would not be my instructor long. The instructor is there to teach. If there is something your student does not know that they need to, the instructor is not doing there job right.

Nobody likes a bully. And there should be no place in aviation for someone like that. Thankfully I have not yet encountered this.

On the other side of the coin, what is with brand new guys thinking that aviation owes them everything? This I have seen, and it is just as bad.

[lilfssister]

OMG...I am agreeing with Capn S&J again!

I have noticed lately a real lack of willingness to admit responsibility when people screw up. If you did something wrong, it's the company's, union's customer's, training's fault: don't try to tell me how to do this because I have been doing it for (insert number of days, weeks, months, years here).

I may not learn something EVERY day I go to work, but I'm pretty sure that it is probably every second day at the very least. And if I make a mistake...guess what? I can say I made a mistake through lack of knowledge, attention to detail, or just plain stupidity. And then I learn from it and DON'T do it again. What a concept.

Perhaps that because I DO give a Sh it??

[ZBB118.10]

Capn Sweet n' Juicy said

you guys are generalizing and assuming that asses dont need to be torn open once in a while,

..Oh my...is that what your CRM instructor told you?

I wish I could work at a place where every new pilot was eager and ready to go. I always was

Evidently....

...ignore a request having to do with aviation from me and you wont soon forget the moment after that!

I bet you have guys lining up to fly with you....

I think there ought to be more discipline, a bit more ass kicking a bit more pride..a bit more feasting on the young ones..so they know for sure what is right and what is wrong

So the fact that you got a sh*t kicking and beat upon as a newbie pilot means that the exact same abuse should be heaped upon everybody else?
(I.e. what was good for you (irony) is good for others)

One word. Sanctimonious. Give me a break.

[JBI]

...

[snaproll20]

I agree with everyone and nobody on this.
The thread is a huge generalization.
There are assholes in every profession, it is not confined to aviation.
We live today in a society which glorifies and rewards mediocrity.
Parents spend fortunes on senior grads from high school, just because the brat hung in there to the final day, not because the majority of them did anything worthwhile. Now kids are having playschool graduation parties and rewards for C's sake!
The result is we have people who have just completed their first solo and expect a $50K+ job within a month on a jet.
Few people are willing to undergo apprenticeship and whining has become a talent.
I once flew with a famous bushpilot who used to take off and leave his co-pilots behind (in the middle of nowhere) if he did not like their work effort.
I made the effort to meet his standards.
I also worked on a framing crew under a miserable little Ukranian who could barely speak English. He was so abusive that three of us threatened to throw him off a second story floor we were working on and then things got better.
So, in dealing with bullies, you have the choice of satisfying them (rarely happens) or facing them down. True bullies retreat and find someone else to pick on when challenged.
You make your choice somewhere between the two extremes as to what your action should be.
Twice in my flying career I worked for CPs who acknowledged the general consensus that XYZ was a disruptive influence no matter how well he flew, and XYZ was sent packing.
It is up to management to see that this kind of attitude is not prevalent in their company. It is disruptive and generates little teamwork and loyalty in employees. Carrots work better than sticks.

Most of the abusive bullying I have witnessed has come from owners who do not deserve to share this planet with regular people.

[...]

Hey Juice...back in the day...how many times were you hauled up to the office for being an idiot on here with some of your brutal opinions?

How many times did you have to be questioned by your boss before you got the message?

Not everyone needs their "asses torn open" to understand.

Normal people get it the first time they are shown.

Carry on....I guess

[CLguy]

Cpt sweet'njuicy,man am I glad I will never have to fly with you!

Snaproll20, I wasn't talking about rewarding mediocrity but rather treating people with respect and taking a new guy under your wing, making him feel it is alright to not know everything. Making them feel it is OK to ask a dumb question without fear of being ridiculed. Making them feel like they are apart of an industry they can grow with and learn as they go from the people who have already been there, without being treated as some rare form of life.

I have nothing but the upmost respect for all the senior guys I worked with over the years because that is what I came through. I no doubt asked some pretty stupid questions while starting out and did some pretty stupid things as I'm sure we all did, but know one ever bullied me or made me feel like some second class citizen. I was mentored by the people I worked with and looked up to. I can't understand why that seems to have been lost.

I agree with what you said about dealing with bullies but why are pilots bullying pilots? I can understand some dickhead manager doing it, but this is not always the case. I was taught years ago to just get a chunk of 2X4 when dealing with bullies and maybe that is what some of the new guys need to resort to rather than just getting so frustrated they are forced to move on.

[ZBB118.10]

Thanks for the reply Captn Sweet n Juicy...

I think I will go back to smoking my BC bud, as I barely managed to comprehend a word of that...

...where do you see that I said I got an ass kicking...reading comprehension and debate...not your strong suit

I don't need to "see" dude, its called reading between the lines and intuition.

At any rate...peace to the world...man this stuff is good...

[...]

.......stop crying at my feet for attention birddog..move along if you nothing to say.

Shall we remind everyone the date...?

May 30th, 2003...was the day you got OWN3D by me.

Now, behave, or you'll get it again....





...now...go fetch me my slippers.

[Julian]

Hey Captain juicy,

It must be a great and exciting experience to fly with you.
I think it's time for you to get laid dude...


Clguy,

Like in any industry, there is tirans (the juice dude), but I don't think that it's a generalised phenomenon. Not in my experience at least. I like how you say: Work hard, play hard

It's so true


J

[Dust Devil]

How many guys who get fired from a job actually tell their new co workers they were fired. I'm sure alot make up B.S stories to make themselves look good to their new employers. Anyone who tells stories about past co workers including bosses are acting very unproffesional and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Same goes for bosses who bad mouth employees.

[xsbank]

Capt...Sweet...and....Juicy,...will...you...stop...with....all....the....f*cking .......dots.....!!!!

[JBI]

...

[Julian]

Holy Sh*t!

LOL!!!

[Julian]

capt juice,

just a little question for you:

With your "superior" flying skills, have you not considered doing some SP IFR operation. This would be a perfect win win situation here. You wouldn’t need to deal with the pieces of human garbage that we all are...

Now, all this reading and writing made me thirsty, I think I'll go and have beer

[Cat Driver]

S&J I found something that may appeal to you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4748292.stm


You could maybe get rid of that latent facination for men and
with some training you could also put it in the right seat.

Cat

[bugspray]

How many guys who get fired from a job actually tell their new co workers they were fired. I'm sure alot make up B.S stories to make themselves look good to their new employers. Anyone who tells stories about past co workers including bosses are acting very unproffesional and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Same goes for bosses who bad mouth employees.

One should never have any doubt in telling a prospective employer if they got fired. I've been unemployed for over 5 months now in the peak of season with 12 years bush experience behind me. My previous employer is trying to sewer me out of the business, but if this is what the industry has come to , i'm more than willing to accept it and move to another profession. I'm a straight shooter and by no means will I fabricate a story just for a job. Just remember there is two sides to every story and a previous employer will always trash your name to save face. When it comes to safety issues, and saying no costs you your job and a prospective employer won't accept that, then you ought not to be workin there neither. There are some respectable employers out there, but if you have to lie to get your job, i'd say your not gonna be happy....All in all those who can't stick with the truth will lose out in the end...

regards