Exploiting the low timer.

ninjacrumb · Post by **ninjacrumb** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:26 pm

I was recently having a beer with a medevac friend of mine who told me a story of a medevac company he ran into in Ontario that is running a PC12 out of YQT. The company, which we can just call company "B" is quite prosperous and do alot of flying. Here's the rub though. They have 3 captains and only 2 FO's. And the aircraft is crewed 24 hours per day.

I didn't do the math immediately then it dawned on me that the FO's get no time off. That might seem okay for some low timer looking to build the log book up, but even the keenest whipper snapper gets burnt out.

I'm not sure how the company gets away with this. If the ops manager is considering days on reserve when the crew doesn't get called a day off, then this guy deserves jail time. This to me sounds like exploiting the new guy in the worst way. If the newbie FO complains, punt, he's gone, and replaced by one of a hundred of low timers dying for a job.

I was also told that this company is run by a guy who is not only the owner but the CP. The worst case scenario. This kind of operator should be outlawed. It inherently promotes unsafe flying for the sake of making a buck.

So my fellow colleagues if you see a PC12 cartwheeling in the clearway because the FO was asleep at the wheel please remember this rant. Rum induced as it was.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:06 pm

Are you sure the FOs do not get time off? There are lots of operators that have the captains fly together in order to give the FOs the time off required by the CARs (which is not a heck of a lot).

I'd Rather Be Flying · Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:13 pm

While I agree that CP's and Operations Managers should be reprimanded for such behaviour, I also feel that pilot's have a say in what to do in those situations. I'm sure it happens in several places, where time and weather pressures hamper the safety of aircraft operations. And enforcement should be on the prowl for those who choose to break the law.

It's my belief though that pilots have the ability to choose or decline an assignment and make a go/no go decision if they are fatigued or othewise unable to complete the job safely. That includes those people who continue to work for free and be slaves to those CP's and Operators who don't really give a damn. And that fact, sad as it is, is the way it is.

While it's great for a low-timer to be sitting in the right seat building time, they too have a choice in that or something else if the soup is too thick. Tell your friend if he or she isn't happy with the working condtions to find something else (low time or not). It's up to the individual.

Now, having said all of that, I do understand some of those pressures because I've been there. But I made a choice and got out...now I work for a great company and don't worry about those things anymore.

Safe flying.

rippey · Post by **rippey** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:57 pm

not too hard to guess the company

magellan · Post by **magellan** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:14 pm

as someone who works with a 5 member medevac crew it is possible for everyone to get time off. We have a 16 days on(12 hour shifts) and four days off schedule. Some shifts are crewed by two captains and our plane is on call 24-7. Not ideal but not hideous either

Out of Control · Post by **Out of Control** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:23 pm

This company should hook up with Regency in BC. Why not screw all pilots.

fempilot · Post by **fempilot** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:09 pm

Transport audits every year and there would be no way that they would not find this out and legally let this company operate based on those hours.

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:16 pm

magellan wrote:as someone who works with a 5 member medevac crew it is possible for everyone to get time off. We have a 16 days on(12 hour shifts) and four days off schedule. Some shifts are crewed by two captains and our plane is on call 24-7. Not ideal but not hideous either

In one of our bases we crew 2 medevac planes with 2 Capt's and 2 FO's. If by chance we have been busy and both crews are resting, which happens a lot, so be it. We can also get extra rest, if needed, when it's crazy busy with no questions asked. We work a 14 on and 14 off schedule. 16 on and 4 off is not enough time off... IMO anyway, especially if you are flying everyday when on call.

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:18 pm

fempilot wrote:i work for a medevac company and we are not allowed to let pilots work more then 6 shifts without having 2 days off? Transport audits every year and there would be no way that they would not find this out and legally let this company operate based on those hours.

The company only has to give you 3 consecutive days off in any 17 consecutive days. I think there is a medevac company that does just that.

Kurwa · Post by **Kurwa** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:40 pm

Or you can do 36 hours off every 7 days.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:09 pm

Without being familiar with the specific company in question, I would like to point out that companies that run crews this way are not always out to exploit low-timers. In fairness, a captain is worth more than an F/O because they can be either a captain or an F/O. An F/0 is that and only that. Many smaller medevac companies have more captains than F/0s in order to have the most flexible crewing options.
Cheers,
Snoopy

supersnail · Post by **supersnail** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:24 am

ninjacrumb wrote: If the ops manager is considering days on reserve when the crew doesn't get called a day off, then this guy deserves jail time. .

That is exactly what they are doing.

LT · Post by LT » Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:15 am

Out of Control wrote:This company should hook up with Regency in BC. Why not screw all pilots.

Pay = Zero at RX.

Seeing as pay wasn't even mentioned in this thread, I don't understand how you can compare the two?

It would be nice to know the Pay, if they're being paid per sector or run, pretty sure the Captains would only want two of them and 3+ FOs.

Soup · Post by **Soup** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:06 am

Whaaaa Whaaaaa man some of you whine alot, just for the record if you are operating under 703 regs which most medivac carriers do you can schedule a pilot for 42 consecutive days without a day off, I suggest you actually know the regs before you whine.

720.19 Requirements for Time Free from Duty
The standard for providing a number of rest periods other than as required by subsection 700.19(1) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations is:

(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, or with a deHavilland DHC-6 aircraft not conducting a scheduled passenger service or with a helicopter not conducting a scheduled passenger service, or heli-logging, the 24 consecutive hours 3 times within each 30 consecutive days may be replaced by:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(a) following at least 5 consecutive periods of 24 consecutive hours free from duty, a flight crew member may be assigned duty for up to 42 consecutive days; and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

ninjacrumb · Post by **ninjacrumb** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:46 am

Soup, what are you talking about man. I didn't read anyone whining or misquoting the CARS. Yes you're right a pilots in air taxi can work 42 days in a row. Then 5 consecutive days off must be given to reset the times to zero. All the other CARS mentioned are also right.

It sounds to me that you are condoning this scheduling of pilots that appears to break the CARS mentioned. If this is the case you are as large a jackass as your previous post implies.

To the others that answered like adults, it truly is a shame to see operations run like this. It seems like such a long time ago that I was a low timer prepared to do what ever it takes to get ahead and it really pisses me off to see this stuff going on.

To company "B", hire more crews for christ sake. Cheap bastards.

Soup · Post by **Soup** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:44 pm

1) "The company only has to give you 3 consecutive days off in any 17 consecutive days."
2) "Or you can do 36 hours off every 7 days."

The above quotes are wrong...the owner/employers has other options.

You are typicial of the whiners that I refer to...hire more pilots you cheap bastard is your comment.

If it was your money would you pay 6 guys to do what can be done with 5? nice guys finish last, the same pilots that you are so honorably trying to defend will bleed you dry.

tripod · Post by **tripod** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:30 pm

Pilots fall under the Federal Labour Code. If at the end of your pay period, your work or on duty hours exceed an average of a 40 hour work week, you are entitled to over time pay

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/L-2/17658.html#rid-17682

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:51 pm

If the low timers allow reserve days to be counted as days off then they can blame themselves just as easily as we can blame the employer. The same goes for the high timers. You can only be taken advantage of with your consent.

Heck, if you do not have the requisite strength of character to be open about being treated like a peon, call the TC inspector who has the company file and give an anonymous tip that reserve days are being counted as off days.

Exploiting the low timer.

Exploiting the low timer.

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