Just wondering

[mellow_pilot]

Do you (ATS folks in general) treat military flights any differently from civilian ones? Assuming they don't already fit the priority list in some way (carrying the queen, air defence flight, etc...)

Are you more likely to grant special requests or that sort of thing? Do you notice a difference in procedures/professionalism?

Just wondering.

[grimey]

I've only dealt with a few military flights in two years as an FSS, so I'm probably not the best person to ask, but they're essentially the same to us. I'm more likely to get my camera out if there's a C-130 or other military aircraft operating here, but the same goes for any aircraft that isn't in and out of here frequently. Sometimes they're doing SAR or a paradrop, or something else that's different than the usual traffic, but it's really no different than dealing with a survey flight, trainers, or other less common civilian flights here. It's a specialized flight, who the pilot works for is irrelevant. Just find out where they are, and what they plan to do, and make sure everyone who'll come close to one another knows what the other is doing. If the pilots are professional (the ones I've spoken to have all been great), then it really doesn't matter what they want to do, you figure out a way to make it work. If they arn't professional, and arn't willing to play nicely with others, the fact that they're military isn't going to make it any worse, they'll screw things up just fine as civilians too.

[invertedattitude]

In my short time span the only difference in how regular military flights are handled are their type of aircraft and altitude limitations, that's about it.

They normally breeze on through like any other commercial flight, with the exceptions of air refuels etc.

[sigmet77]

When I worked at a Northern location with no chance of the a/c being picked up on radar I would advise them of just that, "no radar" feel free to do a fly by. While I wouldn't give them special treatment I did treat them right. I was fortunate enough to have a few passes by the entire snowbird team, smoke and all, there may have been 10 other people on the entire airport at the time. Guys would come by on traing flights or heading to Alaska and would do some, or many, high speed passes to burn off some fuel The best was the CF-18 on departure did a highspeed pass starting about 10 miles away he was over the airport in no time and by the time I picked up the phone to get clearance from centre he leveled at 14,000asl. No they don't get special treatment but treat them properly (as you should any pilot) and they can make your week.

[politically_incorrect]

In general, I find that military pilots listen much better on the radio (much less likely to have to make repeated calls to get their attention) and are more precise when reading back clearances.

[MCA]

politically_incorrect, you must be kidding.
they are the worst of the worst.
we pretty much consider them nordo, because the freakin crap they use as radios seems to be equipment that failed aviation certification.
no freakin' joke, they fly around like they're number one, paying absolutely no attention to the comms. f18 radios make the guy sound like his head is in a toilet, about 32 000 miles away from the antenna.
and i guess they make fun of us big time. i had a C-17 with xpdr failure, and the pilot told me it was the only one he had on board! come on...

they're just stew pidassos

[politically_incorrect]

politically_incorrect, you must be kidding.
they are the worst of the worst.
we pretty much consider them nordo, because the freakin crap they use as radios seems to be equipment that failed aviation certification.
no freakin' joke, they fly around like they're number one, paying absolutely no attention to the comms. f18 radios make the guy sound like his head is in a toilet, about 32 000 miles away from the antenna.
and i guess they make fun of us big time. i had a C-17 with xpdr failure, and the pilot told me it was the only one he had on board! come on...

they're just stew pidassos

The F-18s radios are crap sometimes. That is not the fault of pilot discipline. They've just completed the Phase I upgrades ($800M) on the F-18s, so maybe that will have fixed the radio problem. Any F-18s I've talked to recently have been 5x5.

Maybe you deal more with guys in training, like the Mustang and Ranger flights? I've found the vast majority of Canforce flights to be as I described above.

[grimey]

politically_incorrect, you must be kidding.
they are the worst of the worst.
we pretty much consider them nordo, because the freakin crap they use as radios seems to be equipment that failed aviation certification.

The military pilots can hardly be faulted for the equipment they're provided with.

[justplanecrazy]

Military pilots are just another pilot. There are some with very few hours where you have to hold their hand and others are very experienced and you can let them do their own thing. The big difference is you sometimes are dealing with a low time pilot and a plane that can outperform any other aircraft on the field. That makes for a bad mix at times. They do have their own lingo, 3 green go left, closed left, overhead break, PFL, tallyho etc. and their radio work is very concise, not neccessarily good but very professional and concise. In the military world the departure takes precedence over the arrival and the pilots tend to try to control themselves. This can sometimes be a real pain in the ass as they'll pull some stunt to try and help you out and it actually causes more problems. We'll sometimes work out special requests on our own just to give ourselves a show, ie. coordinating unrestricted climbs to the Flight Levels. As far as them getting an overhead break or flyby, we have restrictions on a few of their stunts but basically they can do whatever they want, traffic and rules permitting. Same thing with the guy behind him in the Champ.

As far as them getting priority, they're just another flight, if they're training they sometimes end up number last on the priority list but if they are actually on a mission they fit in a priority list. Our priority lis is as follows:
Declared emergency
Apparent emergency
Medevac
SAR (civi and military)
Open Skies Treaty flights
Military aircraft on operational air defence exercises and finally
VIP flights.
So if they're just doing pattern work or approaches, they're a regular flight.

[politically_incorrect]

i had a C-17 with xpdr failure, and the pilot told me it was the only one he had on board! come on...

they're just stew pidassos

Have you ever flown? I am venturing a guess at "no", because, as a pilot (and controller), I cannot think of a single good reason as to why I would lie to a controller regarding whether or not I had a second transponder on board. What's your theory?

[MCA]

my theory is that i've got 600 hrs of flying time, and i know what a c17 costs and is equipped with. do you really believe that a USAF C17 has got only one of these on board???

i figure that the guy looked at his map, determined he was in the middle of f__ing boondock, and turned the thing OFF. just for fun. a little bit more and he was turning his radio OFF too... it worked fine with the next sector, but if i had told him to land north of 60*N to repair his shit, i pretty much think that it would have "work" again.

i work high level, high latitudes, and the guys i'm talking with are supposed to be "professionnals", no trainee up here. they are 99.9999999% of the time overflying my airspace or refueling, and the remaining 0.00000001% they intercept guys that didn't check in properly. therefore no excuses for not paying attention and miss all the comms. especially when they are negative RVSM and playing in the middle of an oceanic track.

actually the best "military" flights i deal with are the chartered united flights with a military callsign. and they are the best because they are civilians.

[the_professor]

my theory is that i've got 600 hrs of flying time, and i know what a c17 costs and is equipped with. do you really believe that a USAF C17 has got only one of these on board???

Maybe he only had one serviceable transponder on board.

Not sure what has given you the impression that there is a conspiracy by military pilots towards controllers...

Besides, one C-17 flight does not a generalization make...

[MCA]

that is all true, professor. i guess one XPDR is enough to satisfy the MEL, and i hope they get those things fixed from one time to another. simply, the coincidence was there and i felt like he just turned the switch off. obviously, we'll never know, but that's what i think.

[Skosh]

For the record

Overhead breaks aren't stunts.

In the hornet and any other fast jet, the safest and quickest way we can get to an airport and land is the overhead break. Especially for airplanes with one engine (tutor, hawk, harvard II) in the event of a bird strike or any big emergency leading to an engine out type situation, you'll have a good amount of energy to get altitude and execute a forced landing, or get the aircraft pointed in a safe direction under control and eject.

Another good reason is to keep the noise down. Starting a VFR straigh-in at 8 miles and spending 4 minutes at 90%, vice hitting the pitch at 75% power and landing within 45 seconds is a great reason to do overhead breaks.

Peace out

Skosh

[justplanecrazy]

Try telling the guys at YVR, YYZ, YYC that. Pattern work and overhead breaks are prohibited to most of the larger fields, they're more of a stunt in the controlled world then a required safety procedure. If you're coming in too hot, a gear up low approach is a practical procedure but not one you're allowed to do to 99% of the controlled airports due noise. A snowbird pitch is a practical approach to landing as well. They all make practical sense and we'll allow it if it'll work with our traffic but anything other than a straight in approach is a stunt in a controllers view even if there's a practical aspect to it unlike a roll or a loop.

[Skosh]

Of course, common sense applies..

Heading into YYZ I wouldn't ever expect to do an overhead break or any pattern work. When possible (read when allowed,) and when common sense dictates, I will do an overhead break to a stop (and if traffic permits, a couple closed patters to burn down some gas) for the reasons I gave earlier.

As for how controllers view it, I can understand how it would seem like a stunt. Let me assure you that an overhead break is not viewed as a stunt in the military world. Its an SOP arrival procedure at any military airfield for fast jet aircraft, once again for the reasons I gave earlier. Its one of the first skills we learn in Moose Jaw.

Additionally, at fields with mainly fast jet aircraft, having overhead breaks allows for easy sequencing for controllers and pilots as everyone is going same way, same day, same speed.

Now don't get me wrong, if its going to make everyone's day easier for me to just join the traffic pattern via straight-in, downwind, base, whatever, I will.

Hope we don't cause too many problems out there.

Lates

Skosh

[32a]

This is a two-way street. Generally, it all boils down to experience and airmanship.

Inexperienced controllers will occassionally clear CF aircraft for maneuvers which the controllers don't understand. Then there's usually a panic straightening out the ensuing mess.

On the other hand, inexperienced CF pilots will sometimes request or conduct maneuvers at civilian fields without knowledge of its implications on civilian aircraft or traffic patterns.

CF pilots like showing off their aircraft just as much as ATC enjoy watching them. Just be careful that everything is done safely and within the rules and regs.

ATC's level of service isn't normally based on whether we're CF or civie. Most controllers have a very solid idea of operational priorities and what to expect from the pilots.

Similar to civilian pilots, CF pilots expect to be granted appropriate operational priority. But don't be surprised if we offer to make way for revenue civilian flights when we're out training and can afford the delay.

One key difference between civilian and military pilots must be recognized. There are some, few but still always some, CF pilots out there flying the flight levels with a little as 200 hrs. They are competent and know the rules but are still building their airmanship and experience. The experienced controllers will recognize them by their callsigns.

About a decade ago, there used to be semi-annual gatherings of controllers and CF pilots at the Winnipeg Officers' Mess. A lot of problems were solved over a beer. Maybe it is time for more pilot/controller get-togethers...

[Skosh]

Cause the ladies love it?

[lilfssister]

Quite frankly the ladies don't give rats ass.

Everybody gets treated the same when I'm on duty unless emergency is invoked.

[Skosh]

In general when it comes to fuel,

It always behooves (??) the pilot in command to manage fuel properly, but arriving at your destination with extra gas is actually viewed as a good thing.

Now, how you bring yourself down to a safe landing weight is generally up to you, whether its in the form of multiple IFR approaches, or some VFR pattern work.

Once again, it all comes back to common sense. Landing on a shorter strip I'd definately want to get that fuel weight as close to mins as possible, however in YYC / YYZ.. any of the major centres with a 8-12k foot runway, landing a bit heavy is fine, but still not ideal. Just don't get on the brakes quite as early, and make it a harder landing to get rid of extra kts. Dumping fuel would only happen in a time critical emergency.

Skosh OUT

[GilletteNorth]

Skosh:

In the hornet and any other fast jet, the safest and quickest way we can get to an airport and land is the overhead break.

I've always believed that the reason military aircraft do an overhead break is to reduce the amount of time they are exposed to ground fire. It's hard to shoot a fighter screaming in over the runway at 300kts and 1000 ft, then trying to lead it as it pitches out in a looping circle to land.

That being said, I do treat military aircraft differently. For example, I've seen a C-130 crew call for the advisory, then sit for 10 minutes on the ramp while they do checklists? Next they taxi onto the runway, position on the threshold and sit there for another 10 minutes. Same sort of results with a few CF-18's that have come to sites I've worked at.

[invertedattitude]

MCA,

In my experience, and we work a ton of american military flights, would never lead me to believe they would be anything but 100% accomodating, and I would never believe they would lie about not having another transponder.

They stand nothing to gain, and possibly everything to lose, and trust me they are well aware of that.