Canjet

[CanadaEH]

It’s no secret that KR is after the transat contract that WestJet currently has and this whole reshuffling of the company has a lot to do with securing that contract. On paper this might sound like a good idea. His costs will be much lower than what anybody else could offer transat and KR’s obvious priority would be to transat and not a scheduled service. However in practice I think that it will prove much more difficult as must pilots to be recalled will only come back until they get a call from WJ, AC or any other carrier that will not turf them without a second thought.

All WestJet would have to do to keep Canjet from securing the Transat contract would be to hire aggressively from the current Canjet captain pool. Most would go. However there are some, like trainer, who have been burned by KR more than once and are willing to get burned again. Some people are just a glutton for punishment.

Let me clarify one point for you: WS has a contract with Transat for exclusive service and no other airline can bid on a contract with Transat unless WS can't/won't fly it as WS has the first right to refusal for any Transat flying. Last winter we couldn't do a lot of flying in Eastern Canada because we didn't have the aircraft or crew available; we do this year, as far as I know.

I also think that you underestimate the customer service, product offering (IFE, seat comfort), and schedule flexibility that Canjet's competition (such as WS) provide. Costs sure do play a large part in contract bidding but so do the above mentioned qualities. Westjet offers a product that no airline in Canada can compete with (with the exception of business class) and that has played and will play a large part in why Transat has become such a successful tour operater. Prior to signing the contract extention that we are currently operating under, WS was flying for up to 3 different tour operators. Transat wanted us to provide exclusive service as a combination of WS's product and Transats destination/package options was a deadly one-two combo in the Canadian tour operator market.

So, WS doesn't have to "keep Canjet from securing Transat contracts", Canjet has to hope that WS envokes its first right to refusal for any work Trasat needs us to fly. With 6 aircraft, Canjet certainly doesn't have a lot of offer, especially when most (not all) of the charter flying is done on the weekends. You do get charters throughout the week but who really wants to fly to PVR on a Tuesday night!? That has to be taken into consideration when bidding on contracts. I wish no ill-will towards anybody currently or formerly employed with Canjet, I'd simply like to share some thoughts that you can hopefully take into consideration.

[tonysoprano]

Rickenbacker.
I can't believe some of you actually think like KR that the competition put Canjet under. First of all, assuming this is true, all I can say is that in a free world, competition means survival of the fittest, not necessarily the biggest. AC and WJ were around long before he arrived. Did he not know what the competition could do? Was he not aware of what he was facing? KR saw an oppurtunity to make money as he got caught up in the low cost euphoria. Unfortunately this man lacked the vision and the funds to grow into a stable contender. At one point I admired him for not growing fast as WJ was doing. I really thought he was on the right track for once. When ALPA arrived, he got scared or in my opinion, pissed off. I'm willing to bet that if ALPA shows up again, there would be another shut down and some other excuse. Sorry, I just don't buy it. This guy is playing with people's lives. I use to work for him, the word union was taboo. We use to say he would shut us down if we organized. This was not Air Canada's or WJ's fault. This was an angry entrepeneur getting back at his best employees.

[737daytripper]

The contract that WS has with Transat that expires in 2007 is the one that Canjet is after. There may be some charters flown for Transat by canjet this winter but it is the long term contract (the one that offers right of first refusal) that KR wants and is probably the main reason behind the reshuffling of Canjet.

I think you might Canjet underestimate what canjet has to offer in terms of customer service including bilingualism (Transat is big on that), and the seat comfort is no different than WS. Hopefully that inflight customer service that was provided by Canjet in the past will continue after this last episode.

That is my perception of what IMP is hoping to accomplish.

[rickenbacker]

Im not saying that WJ and AC are the only reasons R decided to change course. What I'm saying is that the sched airline business is just too unstable and cutthroat for R. Just when you think you can sit back and relax and things are good...someones nipping at your heals. The charter business is more up R's alley. They got a taste of that and they want more. One thing they're good at is negotiating contracts and fullfillifing them.

Westjet does offer a good product, and have brand new shiney A/C with that new car smell, and a contract with Transat. But they are no longer a low cost carrier. Do you think they can underbid R?

I havent seen a copy of Westjets contract with Transat, but I hear it's only first right of refusal among sched carriers and it expires in early 07?? Does anyone know for sure?

As for ALPA, they're still here, still legally representing the CJ pilots and will be at Canjet 2.5
If R wants this to work he's going to need somewhat content crews.

The sunquest agreement is for only 2 A/C...what are the other 4 flying?

[CanadaEH]

The contract that WS has with Transat that expires in 2007 is the one that Canjet is after. There may be some charters flown for Transat by canjet this winter but it is the long term contract (the one that offers right of first refusal) that KR wants and is probably the main reason behind the reshuffling of Canjet.

I think you might Canjet underestimate what canjet has to offer in terms of customer service including bilingualism (Transat is big on that), and the seat comfort is no different than WS. Hopefully that inflight customer service that was provided by Canjet in the past will continue after this last episode.

That is my perception of what IMP is hoping to accomplish.

Thanks, that makes more sense.

In all honesty, I don't see Canjet even having a small chance at getting such a large contract. Transat and WS's partnership is mutually beneficial - at this point in time I see no reason to believe that either wants out of the contract or wouldn't want to renew it. Transat needs WS to provide lift where Air Transat's 310's are too large and WS needs Transat to provide guaranteed revenue during the winter months when demand is at its lowest.

Let's compare three major points:

-Canjet offers one city (more cities cost money because you need handling contracts). Westjet offers around 24 cities. Canjet can't offer the same service from the amount of cities that Westjet can.

-Canjet's fleet has a range of around 4400km. Westjet's fleet has a range of around 6100km (-700). This limits the amount of destinations Canjet can serve from Canada.

-Canjet's fleet is six aircraft. Westjet's fleet is 60+ aircraft. Tour operators want lift on weekends (with the occasional one during the week) and with only six aircraft and such a limited city offering, this will hurt Canjet. Even if you add more aircraft to the fleet (which would be hard enough with a fleet of -500's) it'll only increase your costs.

Customer service is moot now, don't you think? Canjet couldn't compete with the product offerings of Westjet and Air Canada when it was a scheduled carrier so what makes you think being a charter carrier - with a recently fired/hired workforce no less - is going to be any better?

I wish Canjet and the employees the best of luck but aiming for one of the most lucrative charter contracts in Canada is aiming extremely high for a carrier in Canjet's position.

[CanadaEH]

Westjet does offer a good product, and have brand new shiney A/C with that new car smell, and a contract with Transat. But they are no longer a low cost carrier. Do you think they can underbid R?

No longer low-cost or no longer no-frills? There's a difference.

See my above post for why I don't see Canjet flying for Transat (on a large scale).

[flyin' fish]

CanadaEH, don't forget the bottom line. CanJet has the lowest operational costs for a 737 operation. Range is an issue, but the cost of chartering an aircraft is a big factor.

[737daytripper]

CanadaEH,

-Canjet offers one city (more cities cost money because you need handling contracts). Westjet offers around 24 cities. Canjet can't offer the same service from the amount of cities that Westjet can.

Service contracts at the major airports (yyz, yul, yow etc.) are easy to come by and can be put in place relatively quickly.

-Canjet's fleet has a range of around 4400km. Westjet's fleet has a range of around 6100km (-700). This limits the amount of destinations Canjet can serve from Canada

I’m assuming that KR would only be doing the charters that the aircraft is capable of. He would not be doing all the routes in the first year of the contract, just as WS did not do all the routes in the first years of their contract with WS.

-Canjet's fleet is six aircraft. Westjet's fleet is 60+ aircraft. Tour operators want lift on weekends (with the occasional one during the week) and with only six aircraft and such a limited city offering, this will hurt Canjet. Even if you add more aircraft to the fleet (which would be hard enough with a fleet of -500's) it'll only increase your costs

He’s probably thinking he could easily have 10 operating for 2007/08, which would provide significant charter capability for yyz and east because there would be no scheduled service to interfere. After this they might be looking at a fleet expansion or new type to cover the longer routes. While adding more aircraft will add an extra cost it will reduce the average cost of running each airplane (assuming that those aircraft are working and are of the same type).


KR may not get my vote for employer of the year and I don’t think he has gone about this the right way in terms of the employees but he is not a stupid business man. There is a reason he’s doing what he is doing and this is my best guess at it. I agree that he is aiming high but to underestimate him and what he is capable of would be foolish.


I've never spent so much time on this site. Not to hard to tell I'm still unemployed.

[Squid]

Fish, you don't know your operating costs. You are only assuming. We don't know AC either or WJ. If I were to armchair this one, fuel contracts are probably cheaper for the volume that WJ has, training expenses are cheaper, Tax levels are cheaper for corporate headquarters in Alberta,newer a/c under warranties, additional revenue streams via buy on board and payper view movies etc. probably better buying power and intrest rates based on size and quantities on insurances etc. the list can go on. Being small doesn't always mean you can operate a seat mile less.

[flyin' fish]

Operational costs are low. Lower salaries is one. Lease costs are fairly low. Trust me, IMP nickel and dimed the leasors for better deals over the past few years, we saw that when the Maersk aircraft (former Sabina) deals fell through. Thus, the United 500's showed up. Hangar costs are floating, because it depends on IMP's charges to their own company. And no hangars are used anywhere else. You're right, it's all assumption, but you can't tell me that the costs are higher or equal than WS, Transat or SkyService.

[CanadaEH]

Operational costs are low. Lower salaries is one. Lease costs are fairly low. Trust me, IMP nickel and dimed the leasors for better deals over the past few years, we saw that when the Maersk aircraft (former Sabina) deals fell through. Thus, the United 500's showed up. Hangar costs are floating, because it depends on IMP's charges to their own company. And no hangars are used anywhere else. You're right, it's all assumption, but you can't tell me that the costs are higher or equal than WS, Transat or SkyService.

Depends on aircraft utilization.

If you're flying an aircraft 5, 10, 15, 20 hours per day each has a lower cost the higher up in block time you go. If Canjet has an aircraft sitting parked three days a week, flying 10 hours a day for two days a week, and flying 18-20 hours a day for the remaining two; I'll tell you right now that an aircraft flying 13 hours a day for five days and 18-20 hours a day for the remaining two has lower costs. It also depends on when you fly the aircraft. Fly it overnight and that lowers costs.

[Trainer]

My only intent in my original post was to point out, perhaps too pragmatically, how all this stuff looks to an outsider.

The pseudonyms combined with the rhetoric thats thrown around here against individuals within your organization does not, in my view, help you.

I know there are a lot of hurt people at CanJet right now wishing they had their job back. I have talked to guys who are facing leaving Canada, not a happy prospect for them. Trying to start over in this country is also an unattractive prospect. So, I find it sad that some of you are so bitter that the dialogue reduces to a sometimes base level that people should either not take a job there or leave asap. From my vantage point flying around in a bug smasher, I would have thought you guys had it made on that '37. The internal stuff, growing pains?, was it really so bad that it wouldn't fix it self over time. Why not try and get the thing running again and try your best to develop it and make it a better place.

Anyway, I meant no disrespect to anyone as I thought I was responding to rhetoric with rhetoric. I merely attempted to bring to light how this may look to some. I don't know how it really was for you at CanJet as I didn't work there day to day. However, those I talked to said it was OK, admittedly there were issues.

Having said that, I can only go by the press releases as to the cause of the shutdown: not making money=not making enough money=not meeting targets/objectives; I think that all means pretty much the same to me. I can't know why your management took the approach to this that they have. I just hope you all, or whoever stays, a year from now has answers that satisfy or make sense to you. Will the charter stuff work? I think it will.............I think you guys will all get your jobs back eventually and I think IMP will make money at this one, or meet targets rather, and I think you will make it beyond those lease anniversary dates. If its a going concern I am sure it will keep going.

Realizing I had stupidly stepped into an open wound I immediately attempted to remove the offending post as the message received was not what I had intended. Regrettably, 737daytripper chose to keep it alive......ah well. What can ya do.

So, my apologies to you all.

For what it worth, my wife thinks I am idiot too.

Hope you are all working soon.

T

[Squid]

Operational costs are low. Lower salaries is one. Lease costs are fairly low. Trust me, IMP nickel and dimed the leasors for better deals over the past few years, we saw that when the Maersk aircraft (former Sabina) deals fell through. Thus, the United 500's showed up. Hangar costs are floating, because it depends on IMP's charges to their own company. And no hangars are used anywhere else. You're right, it's all assumption, but you can't tell me that the costs are higher or equal than WS, Transat or SkyService.

floating hangar costs, wj owns thiers. Salaries aren't that much lower,WJ nickle and dimes,they own most of the a/c and has a more favourable lease rate due to volume and size of customer just like leasing cars under a fleet as opposed to five cars. You still can't sell me the cost per asm. I read somewhere that after WJ anylized the routes,combined with thier efficencies and route structure it would only take 4 700's to do the same job that your 10 were doing. Last time I heard they had something like 7 coming again next year and we are growing here too at AC. Fuel is number one cost salaries second. WJ has an amazing cash to debt ratio and a huge PAID for asset base. CJ leases everything and got into the market too late when the industry was in the upswing of sept 11, thus making leases and everything associated with them more expensive.WJ was in it and signed deals pre sept 11 at way better rates. I have to emphasize the corporate tax levels too, they are HUGE saving in alberta and dropping further.

[green bastard]

The whole world does not read this forum. Only pilots with too much time on their hands (or unemployed Canjet pilots). Oh and apparently KR.
GB

[flyin' fish]

Squid, you got me on one thing, WestJet posts all of their numbers, CanJet doesn't. nuff said.

[po'dcjer]

Hey Trainer, I'm glad you came back with a rebuttal, it showed sum class. We're just a bunch of tired, confused, and pissed off unemployed pilots. When it happened to us at C3 you could see it coming...now that was a bad place to work....canjet had potential and hopefully still does...but something has to be done with management. We'll see how this all works out, and hopefully we will all find work soon. I know there is alot of great people i will never see again, to all of you, it has been an honor and pleasure working with all of you...I know we have been really ranting here the last few weeks...and Trainer, you say it doesn't look very professional (I sorta gotta agree, because I have been shooting my mouth off a little to much lately)but, the way all the pilots, f/a's, GSA's and maintenance personall conducted themselfs after the announcement on Sept. 5, I was very proud to be working with everyone of them. It was unbelieveable, especially what that bastard did to us ( oh there I go again). I have probably wasted enough of your time, and I really dont see where the point of this is going anymore...Anyway Trainer, I dont think your an idiot (just some of your statements) ha ha....anytime ya want rant, come on back....cheers

[Trainer]

Thanks for that.

I'm rooting for all you guys.

Take care pal.

T

[green bastard]

Trainer are you sure that the don't work for Canjet? You sure sound like a management/trainer/seniority in question/ kind of guy.

[eastdude]

Trainer,

That was a good post, for what its worth my girlfriend says i'm an idiot as well sometimes. I guess when we've worked hard for this company in the past it is hard to keep emotions in check. Some Ex Canjetters feel lied too, cheated again. A lot of stress was put on the guy/gals and their families. So when you go through all of that just to be out of work again, while witnessing mismanagement hurts.
The good news is that at least some can keep working there and others are starting to get jobs at other places. Skyservice and Sunwing, as well a first Air have all taken one or more. Hopefully the Westjet, AC, and Jazz groundschools will start having a few in the comming classes in the next few months.

[V1VRV2]

deleted

[Trainer]

I do not work for Canjet, but I do have a couple of friends there who keep me plugged in. Sorry if I have been confused with someone there.

T

[flynbutcher]

I, for one, am getting pretty fed up with this whole industry. I think this down time(unemployment) is going to give me a chance to really think about where my future is headed. I'm sick of being screwed around by dick head CEOs and bosses who only care for themselves and not a shit for the ones who are working there asses off for them. The sacrafices my wife has made so that I can go out and work for $40000 has to end. Anyone can make 40000 - 70000 dollars doing anything at all. You don't have to fly airplanes.. After 15 years in this shit, it may be time to pack it all in and get a real job(and a real life).
I think its all starting to get to me now.

[po'dcjer]

I hear ya bro I hear ya.....

[richardhead]

Sick of the industry? Duh. Good luck doing something else though. We are the most chemically imbalanced bunch of arseholes going. You won't last 6 months pulling a nine to fiver. I agree that the industry is in the toilet, but don't blame the CEO's it's not their fault. It's ours. For every ten of us who will not work for peanuts, their's 100 that will. We all cry in our beer about how shitty our deal is but nobody does anything about it. What this industry needs is it's pilot's to stop pissing in eachothers beer. You will never change the way the owners view us unless you change the way we view ourselves.

[Luscombe]

I agree. I used to be a "nine to fiver...monday to friday" member of the "cubical maze". I really felt like one of the characters in a Dilbert comic strip. I really hated it.

I chose to work in aviation as I was entering middle age (if you're going to have a mid-life crisis, aviation is sure a whole lot easier). It has certainly not been an easy road; I've been laid off three times in three years. We've all paid our dues, and paid, and paid..... we do get a little pi$$ed off when we consider all we've gone through to get ourselves where we are. I think of all of the giving 100%, takin' one for the team or whatever management buzzwords they are using to get us to go the extra mile for them. Although I wasn't at CanJet all that long, I poured my heart and soul into it. I even signed my training bond ($30K) for it. I get pi$$ed when I think of how one-sided this industry really is.

Take for example the training bond. They agree to provide me with the training to make me legal to fly for them, and I agree to reimburse them for the costs to train me if I decide to bolt for a better opportunity. The bond was for 3 years. I think training bonds would be a whole lot easier to swallow if I agree to work for them for 3 years, and THEY promise to keep me employed for that time period or pay ME the balance of the training bond should THEY decide to terminate my employment due to a lay-off (or "group termination") situation. I don't think there is an airline in the country that would agree to this agreement because all they need to do is go to the next resume on the pile and surely there would be someone who would be willing to work longer hours for less pay, sign any document etc...

We are willing to prostitute ourselves at the cost of our fellow pilots. This doesn't just happen at the flight instructor/ramp rat/dispatcher level, but at all levels. It makes me sick, and I for one am really tired of it all.

Am I going to . it all and go back to being a "nine to fiver", not on your life! As I said before, I was there and I'm not keen on going back. I have decided however to perhaps go back to flying cargo, or perhaps go back to the bush where the employment prospects were a little more stable (not by much mind you). I enjoyed flying at CanJet thoroughly. The people were great, destinations fine, aircraft well-maintained and well-equipped. I would love to turn the clock back a couple of months and do it all over again.

OK, I'll stop ranting. All I can say is that it's a crying shame that it didn't all work out.