Found on the Pprune..
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Sourc ... _0918.html
Is the August terror plot 'fiction' ?
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critical engine
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Intresting......
True or not, the task of keeping the public scared has been done!
Now where did I put my water bottle???
True or not, the task of keeping the public scared has been done!
Now where did I put my water bottle???
Son, someday you will make a girl very happy, for a short period of time. Then she`ll leave you and be with new men who are ten times better than you could ever hope to be. These men are called pilots.
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sky's the limit
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The other side of the coin..
By ERIC LIPTON and MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: October 4, 2006
WASHINGTON, Oct. 3 — In a canyon in New Mexico, technicians detonated beaker after beaker of liquid explosives. In laboratories in Florida and New Jersey, scientists concocted dangerous brews. In drugstores and supermarkets in the Washington area, government officials shopped for tiny containers of shaving cream, shampoo and toothpaste.
Since a London-based plot to bomb airliners was broken up seven weeks ago, aviation security officials in the United States have pushed to assess how serious that threat was and what safeguards should be taken. The revised checkpoint rules announced last week by American, Canadian and European authorities were the result of that frenzied effort, Transportation Security Administration officials said.
The new rules — which ease a ban on liquids by allowing travelers to carry three-ounce containers of toiletries in a one-quart, zip-top plastic bag — have been largely met with approval by passengers and relief by airlines overburdened with a crush of checked bags. But the changes also provoked some skepticism by the public about the reasoning behind the decision.
Aviation security officials said they were confident they had settled on a sound course. “We looked at it from the chemistry point of view, the physics point of view — which kind of operational tactics one might use, with different scenarios,” said Kip Hawley, the assistant secretary for the transportation agency. “The arrangement we came up with does have a good margin of error.”
The testing, Mr. Hawley said, confirmed that the risks posed by the London plot were real. “This was a serious, serious, serious threat — chilling is the word,” he said in an interview last week. But extensive work by government and university scientists showed that the threat could be largely counteracted by limits on the size of containers, he said.
Mr. Hawley and the deputy homeland security secretary, Michael Jackson, provided new details about the analysis of the London scheme in a joint interview last week, in part because they were aware of the skepticism over the new checkpoint rules. Officials from the F.B.I., the T.S.A., the White House domestic security office and aviation security agencies overseas concurred in the decision, Homeland Security officials said.
There was “remarkable interagency consensus,” said Russ Knocke, a Homeland Security spokesman.
Some aviation security and explosive detection experts said the new rules demonstrated that the initial ban on liquids was overkill.
“I think they overreacted,” said Penrose Albright, a former assistant secretary at the Science and Technology division of the Department of Homeland Security. “Where they are at now is where they should have been from the beginning.”
But others worry that lifting the ban might be premature. Stephen J. McHale, a former deputy T.S.A. administrator, said some security experts in Washington were concerned that with some suspects perhaps still at large, government scientists could not reliably counter unknown formulas terrorists might be developing.
Homeland Security officials said the effort to assess the threat began soon after the arrests of plot suspects by British authorities on Aug. 9. Laboratories lined up by Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation immediately began replicating the bomb the British plotters were experimenting with. And scientists tried to build every alternative they could imagine.
Scientists tested the ingredients linked to the London plot in the Rio Grande Valley south of Albuquerque, where the canyons and mountains form a perfect explosives testing range. Based on the materials found in Britain, investigators developed a specific theory of the bomb plot, two officials who have been briefed on the inquiry said.
With the seal on a sports drink called Lucozade intact, the plotters apparently intended to remove the drink with a hypodermic needle and replace it with highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide, a syrupy liquid once used as rocket fuel. Another bottle would be filled with a common household substance, which The New York Times agreed not to disclose at the request of Homeland Security officials. After the two were mixed, a detonator hidden in a hollowed-out AA battery would be used to set off the bomb, according to this theory.
The work did not involve blowing up an airplane. Instead, ingredients were mixed in the beakers and, with the help of a robotic device, detonated while technicians were in a nearby bunker, security officials said. High-speed cameras recorded the explosions, while devices took readings so technicians could calculate the power and duration of the blasts and predict their effect on a plane.
Neither Van D. Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Tech, which operates the explosives testing center, nor security officials would describe in detail the strength of the explosions or the quantities of liquids tested. But Mr. Romero said the blasts were of considerable force. “There are liquids that will detonate and can cause a significant amount of damage,” he said.
The critical next question was how much liquid represented a threat. Aviation security officials said there was no way to eliminate risk. Trying to identify and intercept any object that might present a threat, no matter how modest, would cause major checkpoint bottlenecks. The intent, they said, was to prevent anything that could cause catastrophic damage from getting aboard planes.
Taking into account the possibility that terrorists might act as a team and pool ingredients, officials arrived at the limit of one quart-size plastic bag per passenger. That amount of liquid explosives could still cause damage or harm passengers, but it would be unlikely to destroy a plane, officials said.
“It is well within the comfort zone of what we need to protect the public,” Mr. Hawley said.
To decide what could go inside the bag, the transportation agency identified the smallest containers of basic toiletries travelers might need.
“They sent men out to grocery stores and pharmacies, they sent women out, they sent people with kids to look at what kids bring,” Mr. Jackson said.
Mr. Hawley acknowledged that airlines and airport retailers were pressing to ease the liquids ban, but he said the decision to modify it was based purely on a safety analysis.
The airlines were overwhelmed with a 20 to 25 percent increase in checked bags, pushing out profitable cargo and complicating the effort to load planes on time. They were also concerned that business travelers might avoid flying, said John M. Meenan, senior vice president of the Air Transport Association, the trade association of the major airlines.
The transportation agency plans to keep the limit on liquids in place indefinitely, officials said, because equipment is not reliable or efficient enough to detect liquid explosives.
Mr. McHale, the former T.S.A. deputy administrator, said he thought the agency had made a reasonable decision.
“You have to act on the info you know, not fears of what you don’t know,” he said. “People who aren’t faced with the pressures of keeping the aviation system running might prefer to just shut the system down or have everybody fly naked. But obviously, you can’t
By ERIC LIPTON and MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: October 4, 2006
WASHINGTON, Oct. 3 — In a canyon in New Mexico, technicians detonated beaker after beaker of liquid explosives. In laboratories in Florida and New Jersey, scientists concocted dangerous brews. In drugstores and supermarkets in the Washington area, government officials shopped for tiny containers of shaving cream, shampoo and toothpaste.
Since a London-based plot to bomb airliners was broken up seven weeks ago, aviation security officials in the United States have pushed to assess how serious that threat was and what safeguards should be taken. The revised checkpoint rules announced last week by American, Canadian and European authorities were the result of that frenzied effort, Transportation Security Administration officials said.
The new rules — which ease a ban on liquids by allowing travelers to carry three-ounce containers of toiletries in a one-quart, zip-top plastic bag — have been largely met with approval by passengers and relief by airlines overburdened with a crush of checked bags. But the changes also provoked some skepticism by the public about the reasoning behind the decision.
Aviation security officials said they were confident they had settled on a sound course. “We looked at it from the chemistry point of view, the physics point of view — which kind of operational tactics one might use, with different scenarios,” said Kip Hawley, the assistant secretary for the transportation agency. “The arrangement we came up with does have a good margin of error.”
The testing, Mr. Hawley said, confirmed that the risks posed by the London plot were real. “This was a serious, serious, serious threat — chilling is the word,” he said in an interview last week. But extensive work by government and university scientists showed that the threat could be largely counteracted by limits on the size of containers, he said.
Mr. Hawley and the deputy homeland security secretary, Michael Jackson, provided new details about the analysis of the London scheme in a joint interview last week, in part because they were aware of the skepticism over the new checkpoint rules. Officials from the F.B.I., the T.S.A., the White House domestic security office and aviation security agencies overseas concurred in the decision, Homeland Security officials said.
There was “remarkable interagency consensus,” said Russ Knocke, a Homeland Security spokesman.
Some aviation security and explosive detection experts said the new rules demonstrated that the initial ban on liquids was overkill.
“I think they overreacted,” said Penrose Albright, a former assistant secretary at the Science and Technology division of the Department of Homeland Security. “Where they are at now is where they should have been from the beginning.”
But others worry that lifting the ban might be premature. Stephen J. McHale, a former deputy T.S.A. administrator, said some security experts in Washington were concerned that with some suspects perhaps still at large, government scientists could not reliably counter unknown formulas terrorists might be developing.
Homeland Security officials said the effort to assess the threat began soon after the arrests of plot suspects by British authorities on Aug. 9. Laboratories lined up by Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation immediately began replicating the bomb the British plotters were experimenting with. And scientists tried to build every alternative they could imagine.
Scientists tested the ingredients linked to the London plot in the Rio Grande Valley south of Albuquerque, where the canyons and mountains form a perfect explosives testing range. Based on the materials found in Britain, investigators developed a specific theory of the bomb plot, two officials who have been briefed on the inquiry said.
With the seal on a sports drink called Lucozade intact, the plotters apparently intended to remove the drink with a hypodermic needle and replace it with highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide, a syrupy liquid once used as rocket fuel. Another bottle would be filled with a common household substance, which The New York Times agreed not to disclose at the request of Homeland Security officials. After the two were mixed, a detonator hidden in a hollowed-out AA battery would be used to set off the bomb, according to this theory.
The work did not involve blowing up an airplane. Instead, ingredients were mixed in the beakers and, with the help of a robotic device, detonated while technicians were in a nearby bunker, security officials said. High-speed cameras recorded the explosions, while devices took readings so technicians could calculate the power and duration of the blasts and predict their effect on a plane.
Neither Van D. Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Tech, which operates the explosives testing center, nor security officials would describe in detail the strength of the explosions or the quantities of liquids tested. But Mr. Romero said the blasts were of considerable force. “There are liquids that will detonate and can cause a significant amount of damage,” he said.
The critical next question was how much liquid represented a threat. Aviation security officials said there was no way to eliminate risk. Trying to identify and intercept any object that might present a threat, no matter how modest, would cause major checkpoint bottlenecks. The intent, they said, was to prevent anything that could cause catastrophic damage from getting aboard planes.
Taking into account the possibility that terrorists might act as a team and pool ingredients, officials arrived at the limit of one quart-size plastic bag per passenger. That amount of liquid explosives could still cause damage or harm passengers, but it would be unlikely to destroy a plane, officials said.
“It is well within the comfort zone of what we need to protect the public,” Mr. Hawley said.
To decide what could go inside the bag, the transportation agency identified the smallest containers of basic toiletries travelers might need.
“They sent men out to grocery stores and pharmacies, they sent women out, they sent people with kids to look at what kids bring,” Mr. Jackson said.
Mr. Hawley acknowledged that airlines and airport retailers were pressing to ease the liquids ban, but he said the decision to modify it was based purely on a safety analysis.
The airlines were overwhelmed with a 20 to 25 percent increase in checked bags, pushing out profitable cargo and complicating the effort to load planes on time. They were also concerned that business travelers might avoid flying, said John M. Meenan, senior vice president of the Air Transport Association, the trade association of the major airlines.
The transportation agency plans to keep the limit on liquids in place indefinitely, officials said, because equipment is not reliable or efficient enough to detect liquid explosives.
Mr. McHale, the former T.S.A. deputy administrator, said he thought the agency had made a reasonable decision.
“You have to act on the info you know, not fears of what you don’t know,” he said. “People who aren’t faced with the pressures of keeping the aviation system running might prefer to just shut the system down or have everybody fly naked. But obviously, you can’t
If you believe in any of the terrorist plots you are either
a. american
b. an idiot who watches to much american tv
This plot came just in time to reenforce the the troops purpose in the middle east, which was to rid out osama, but they some how ended up in iraq, even though they NEVER had weapons of mass destruction, which had NOTHING to do with 9/11 or terrorist plots. But guess what everyone hates america a little more everyday! Amazing how no one likes a bully in there backyard.
Which is even more amazing is that people BUY into this crap (the american lies) and lets there goverment get away with it.
We should be ashamed that Harper is accepting this, and taking part in it in Afghanistan. We can pull out and put our aid in a place that really wants it like Darfur. Oh i forgot, no one cares about the black people, just about countries that provide oil pipe lines to america. And because america invades there countries, the occupied people are the terrorists??!! It's **cked up!
Sorry i am pissed off about this right now, and CAN NOT believe that there are so many STUPID people who can't see through what is happening.
It's all planned to keep the american (oil) machine going, and keep the people in fear and brain washed.
ok that's it!
a. american
b. an idiot who watches to much american tv
This plot came just in time to reenforce the the troops purpose in the middle east, which was to rid out osama, but they some how ended up in iraq, even though they NEVER had weapons of mass destruction, which had NOTHING to do with 9/11 or terrorist plots. But guess what everyone hates america a little more everyday! Amazing how no one likes a bully in there backyard.
Which is even more amazing is that people BUY into this crap (the american lies) and lets there goverment get away with it.
We should be ashamed that Harper is accepting this, and taking part in it in Afghanistan. We can pull out and put our aid in a place that really wants it like Darfur. Oh i forgot, no one cares about the black people, just about countries that provide oil pipe lines to america. And because america invades there countries, the occupied people are the terrorists??!! It's **cked up!
Sorry i am pissed off about this right now, and CAN NOT believe that there are so many STUPID people who can't see through what is happening.
It's all planned to keep the american (oil) machine going, and keep the people in fear and brain washed.
ok that's it!
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sky's the limit
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ZBB118.10
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V1....
Good post my friend, and most likely a fair assessment - unfortunately as you can read, you are singing to the masses who don't have the ability to see what is really happening...
Lets play some word association here...
War on terror / America / Mid-east / Israel / Neo-conservatives / New World Order / fear = control /
Now please take me back to the asylum....
Good post my friend, and most likely a fair assessment - unfortunately as you can read, you are singing to the masses who don't have the ability to see what is really happening...
Lets play some word association here...
War on terror / America / Mid-east / Israel / Neo-conservatives / New World Order / fear = control /
Now please take me back to the asylum....
_______________________________________
A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
A shit leopard never changes its spots boys...
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Cat Driver
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And of course there are no radical Muslums blowing themselves up because they believe their religeon commands them to kill infidels.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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the original tony
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first off, has anyone read the Koran?
To commit suicide is the most cowardly way to die, and will not offer you salvation, even whilst killing the infidel. listen to CNN and you hear the exact opposite, of course they are the authority on ALL, so why not believe them?
from the liquid explosives to 911 to fanatic muslims.
did you hear of this many "fanatics" until the US decided to invade a muslim country for "the good" of the people?
say some riteous country invades canada, and we fight back, are we now called fanatic catholics and christians?
very easy to be critical of others until the shoe is on the other foot.
was the liquid bomb plot a hoax? who knows. Was 911 a hoax?
well the two towers did fall, and innocent people did die.
that is the only thing that is for sure. Did someone say Pearl Harbour, JFK???
don't read between the lines, no conspiracy theories, nothing.
use common sense and judgement.
for such a heinous crime to take out 10 or more A/C and nothing more is heard after the first few days?
the seeds of fear are planted, the FBI,CIA and all the others are doing their job finding the bad BROWN people.
and overseas another couple of hundred civilians are killed for their own good. and best of all, the price of oil has dropped under 60 a barrel.
sounds good to me. if you ask me the Iraqis had it coming. Hiding weapons of mass destruction and all.....
kill a few more muslims, plenty more where they came from, just don't stop pumping the oil please...
the "original" tony
To commit suicide is the most cowardly way to die, and will not offer you salvation, even whilst killing the infidel. listen to CNN and you hear the exact opposite, of course they are the authority on ALL, so why not believe them?
from the liquid explosives to 911 to fanatic muslims.
did you hear of this many "fanatics" until the US decided to invade a muslim country for "the good" of the people?
say some riteous country invades canada, and we fight back, are we now called fanatic catholics and christians?
very easy to be critical of others until the shoe is on the other foot.
was the liquid bomb plot a hoax? who knows. Was 911 a hoax?
well the two towers did fall, and innocent people did die.
that is the only thing that is for sure. Did someone say Pearl Harbour, JFK???
don't read between the lines, no conspiracy theories, nothing.
use common sense and judgement.
for such a heinous crime to take out 10 or more A/C and nothing more is heard after the first few days?
the seeds of fear are planted, the FBI,CIA and all the others are doing their job finding the bad BROWN people.
and overseas another couple of hundred civilians are killed for their own good. and best of all, the price of oil has dropped under 60 a barrel.
sounds good to me. if you ask me the Iraqis had it coming. Hiding weapons of mass destruction and all.....
kill a few more muslims, plenty more where they came from, just don't stop pumping the oil please...
the "original" tony
MUSKEG, Spokes, gr8gazu -
You guys still waiting for a ruling on the McCarthy hearings? The Republicans have been lying to, and creating fear in, average Americans for decades - why stop now?
The US and Britain have a vested interest in keeping everyone on their toes to help justify their acts of terror around the globe. If that requires a little embellishment I wouldn't put it past them.
Facts -
-More coalition forces have been killed in Iraq than people were killed on September 11. (http://icasualties.org/oif/)
-WAY more innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed by the U.S. in their "war of (oh, I meant to say 'on') terror" than were killed on September 11. (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/ or see the link above)
-It has been discovered by study (duh!) that actions by the U.S. have actually increased the level of hostility towards the west in regions which the U.S. is occupying/terrorizing. (Thus creating more people with terrorist ideations.)
-Number of Iraqi hijackers on Sept. 11 - 0
-No specific information has been released to back up the validity of the actual threat in Britain this past summer. Despite this our civil liberties will never be the same!
You guys can keep on believing the ambiguous B.S. that is released to keep everyone in fear and unquestioning. Skepticism is healthy and necessary in a free society. Please stop putting those down who dare to question as paranoid and delusional.
Terrorists are the commies of the 21st Century. And just like the commies - they are coming!!!!!! Bush and Blair said so.
You guys still waiting for a ruling on the McCarthy hearings? The Republicans have been lying to, and creating fear in, average Americans for decades - why stop now?
The US and Britain have a vested interest in keeping everyone on their toes to help justify their acts of terror around the globe. If that requires a little embellishment I wouldn't put it past them.
Facts -
-More coalition forces have been killed in Iraq than people were killed on September 11. (http://icasualties.org/oif/)
-WAY more innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed by the U.S. in their "war of (oh, I meant to say 'on') terror" than were killed on September 11. (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/ or see the link above)
-It has been discovered by study (duh!) that actions by the U.S. have actually increased the level of hostility towards the west in regions which the U.S. is occupying/terrorizing. (Thus creating more people with terrorist ideations.)
-Number of Iraqi hijackers on Sept. 11 - 0
-No specific information has been released to back up the validity of the actual threat in Britain this past summer. Despite this our civil liberties will never be the same!
You guys can keep on believing the ambiguous B.S. that is released to keep everyone in fear and unquestioning. Skepticism is healthy and necessary in a free society. Please stop putting those down who dare to question as paranoid and delusional.
Terrorists are the commies of the 21st Century. And just like the commies - they are coming!!!!!! Bush and Blair said so.
Sure, the terrorists have all been a figment of our imgination. Sadam Hussain was a cuddly loveable uncle. Lets just all hold hands and sim Kum By Ya (How do you spell that anyways?).
When I was flying in the gulf in the months leading up to the Iraq invasion the only place that posed any kind of threat to us was up in the north end. Iraq was a wild card around there, and Saddam Hussain really was a bad guy. Wasn't even all the nervous when intercepted by Iranian aircraft every day.
When I was flying in the gulf in the months leading up to the Iraq invasion the only place that posed any kind of threat to us was up in the north end. Iraq was a wild card around there, and Saddam Hussain really was a bad guy. Wasn't even all the nervous when intercepted by Iranian aircraft every day.
Wahunga!
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sky's the limit
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It saddens me that there are Canadians representing our country abroad with this level of ignorance. Sorry Spokes, you just don't seem to get it. If the best you can do is the sarcastic first paragraph here, it puts you right there with all the other fear mongering Right Wingers.Spokes wrote:Sure, the terrorists have all been a figment of our imgination. Sadam Hussain was a cuddly loveable uncle. Lets just all hold hands and sim Kum By Ya (How do you spell that anyways?).
When I was flying in the gulf in the months leading up to the Iraq invasion the only place that posed any kind of threat to us was up in the north end. Iraq was a wild card around there, and Saddam Hussain really was a bad guy. Wasn't even all the nervous when intercepted by Iranian aircraft every day.
Not one person here would say Saddam was a "nice guy," but it was still an Illegal War that removed him from power. It has still caused immeasurable death and suffering in Iraq and elsewhere, and it has done NOTHING to provide so called safety and security - in fact, it's made it far worse. The U.S. Administration has done nothing but lie, deny, and disregard both domestic and Int'l laws.... Nice guys...
I really wish some of you guys would read something before spouting off.
STL
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sky's the limit
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Lmao... You serious?
Well, I guess several Millenea of War has proven itself to be the best method for solving problems? The current state of affairs is an embarrasment to our species, and is only serving to make things worse. There is a manufacturing of Crisis going on here, and it's for the benefit of a few, regardless of the impact on everyone else.
To believe that Saddam or Iran were/are a threat to the saftey of Europe/N America, is just a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Facts which many choose not to see. The shameless invasion of Lebannon and that atrocities committed there were ok with you? Ignoring all the real crises in Africa is ok with you? Having the most powerful nation on earth being, by it's own definition, the biggest "rogue state" of them all is ok with you? The U.S. President re-writing laws to protect himself from prosecution as a War Criminal is ok with you? The full endorsement of torture and secret trials where Habeas Corpus(good enough for 800years...) is not applied is ok with you?
Well not with me.
There's nothing I love more than debating a given topic, but in order to do that, both parties require the facts, using tired rhetoric and propaganda doesn't fit the bill. It's like aguing the existance of God by quoting the Bible - doesn't work.
To compare on a moral level what is going on now, to WWII, is apples to oranges. Actually, make that apples to chickens... It's not even close. Even if it were, ask the 60 million+ people who died in it, if they think there's a better way? I'm pretty sure they'd think so...
STL
Well, I guess several Millenea of War has proven itself to be the best method for solving problems? The current state of affairs is an embarrasment to our species, and is only serving to make things worse. There is a manufacturing of Crisis going on here, and it's for the benefit of a few, regardless of the impact on everyone else.
To believe that Saddam or Iran were/are a threat to the saftey of Europe/N America, is just a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Facts which many choose not to see. The shameless invasion of Lebannon and that atrocities committed there were ok with you? Ignoring all the real crises in Africa is ok with you? Having the most powerful nation on earth being, by it's own definition, the biggest "rogue state" of them all is ok with you? The U.S. President re-writing laws to protect himself from prosecution as a War Criminal is ok with you? The full endorsement of torture and secret trials where Habeas Corpus(good enough for 800years...) is not applied is ok with you?
Well not with me.
There's nothing I love more than debating a given topic, but in order to do that, both parties require the facts, using tired rhetoric and propaganda doesn't fit the bill. It's like aguing the existance of God by quoting the Bible - doesn't work.
To compare on a moral level what is going on now, to WWII, is apples to oranges. Actually, make that apples to chickens... It's not even close. Even if it were, ask the 60 million+ people who died in it, if they think there's a better way? I'm pretty sure they'd think so...
STL
Spokes - Hussein was a regional threat and a threat to the Iraqi people. The U.S. removed him and yet they remain. What continues in Iraq is the American need to protect THEIR interests.
There have been other horrible dictators in the last fifty years that the U.S. did nothing about - in fact they enabled some of them (including Hussein). Bush claims to be doing this for some noble reason like protecting Americans from terror. I, like many, call bullsh*t.
"Terrorist - somebody using violence for political purposes: somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes."
Sounds like Bush to me.
"Terrorism - political violence: violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, carried out for political purposes."
Sounds like the Iraqi invasion. When did the Iraqis provoke the U.S. into this war? Who from Iraq attacked the United States? The Americans went in for a political reason and therefore performed an act of terrorism. They slaughtered THOUSANDS of innocent people in the process.
BTW - I never said they were a figment of our imagination, I simply stated that like the communist threat, the terror threat is being grossly exaggerated. Also I hold the crazy notion that U.S. tipped the scale in WWII and did not win the war single-handedly as you implied.
I don't know the spelling of that song title but I do know it's S-a-d-d-a-m H-u-s-s-e-i-n.
There have been other horrible dictators in the last fifty years that the U.S. did nothing about - in fact they enabled some of them (including Hussein). Bush claims to be doing this for some noble reason like protecting Americans from terror. I, like many, call bullsh*t.
"Terrorist - somebody using violence for political purposes: somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes."
Sounds like Bush to me.
"Terrorism - political violence: violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, carried out for political purposes."
Sounds like the Iraqi invasion. When did the Iraqis provoke the U.S. into this war? Who from Iraq attacked the United States? The Americans went in for a political reason and therefore performed an act of terrorism. They slaughtered THOUSANDS of innocent people in the process.
BTW - I never said they were a figment of our imagination, I simply stated that like the communist threat, the terror threat is being grossly exaggerated. Also I hold the crazy notion that U.S. tipped the scale in WWII and did not win the war single-handedly as you implied.
I don't know the spelling of that song title but I do know it's S-a-d-d-a-m H-u-s-s-e-i-n.
Last edited by BeenUsed on Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Id say that the Amercians are still there because if they left now the place would descend into civil war. And of course they are protecting there interests. Thats what you do.
As to labeling America, its leaders and it soldiers "terrorists" well I will not dignify that with a response.
When America was attacked in 2001, Bush said he would fight to get rid of the terrorists that caused this, and do fight to get rid of all terroism everywhere. A little overly ambitous but it did get him a 90+% approvale rating. Its just when the dirty work starts that everyone is unhappy. Do you really think it is best for them to get completely out of Iraq now?
This thread actually started as a question as to whether or not the latest averted terroist plots really existed - ie liquid exploses smuggled on aircraft. Some conspriicy theorists think that it was "made up" but USA/Britain for propaganda. I suspect not. These are the same types who think the Pearl Harbour attack was forseen and let happen, or any of a number of other conspiracy theories. The discussion (rant in some cases?) has clearly gone beyond the scope of aviation and really should not be continued here. Besides, we will not likely change each others mind.
Sleep well tonight.
As to labeling America, its leaders and it soldiers "terrorists" well I will not dignify that with a response.
When America was attacked in 2001, Bush said he would fight to get rid of the terrorists that caused this, and do fight to get rid of all terroism everywhere. A little overly ambitous but it did get him a 90+% approvale rating. Its just when the dirty work starts that everyone is unhappy. Do you really think it is best for them to get completely out of Iraq now?
This thread actually started as a question as to whether or not the latest averted terroist plots really existed - ie liquid exploses smuggled on aircraft. Some conspriicy theorists think that it was "made up" but USA/Britain for propaganda. I suspect not. These are the same types who think the Pearl Harbour attack was forseen and let happen, or any of a number of other conspiracy theories. The discussion (rant in some cases?) has clearly gone beyond the scope of aviation and really should not be continued here. Besides, we will not likely change each others mind.
Sleep well tonight.
Wahunga!
Dude - No one needs you to dignify anything. Of course the dead women and children of Iraq were the true terrorists not your heroes the Americans.
Terrorism is a matter of perspective
The original post was about the true threat being exaggerated (more or less) which I believe, from history, that it is.
Bush's approval rating in 2001 was based on emotion. Now that people have calmed down and are looking objectively at what he has actually done, his approval rating has slumped well below 50%. (http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm)
To answer your question - yes!!!!! Stop making more terrorists!!!!
Terrorism is a matter of perspective
The original post was about the true threat being exaggerated (more or less) which I believe, from history, that it is.
Bush's approval rating in 2001 was based on emotion. Now that people have calmed down and are looking objectively at what he has actually done, his approval rating has slumped well below 50%. (http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm)
To answer your question - yes!!!!! Stop making more terrorists!!!!
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sky's the limit
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No Spokes,
What I hate is lies, corruption, hidden agendas, offensive wars based on said lies, the complete disregard for Laws, International or otherwise, and the propagation of myths that have served to further alienate people of different races and social-economic status. Not too worried who in particular is engaged in this behavior at the time, I have an intense dislike for it all. That, and almost anything that ends with "ism."
Newsflash: America and it’s WMD(their Grade 2 catchphrase), Army, and Intelligence Services are terrorizing people all over the world. Ask the 700 folks on the 5 year vacation in Cuba, or Mr. Arar, maybe the citizens of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, or Iran. 9/11 was/is an excuse to pursue an agenda, and if you honestly can sit there and say you don’t see that, well, I truly feel sorry. As I’ve suggested here in the past – if you don’t want to believe me, read the writings of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowtiz, Rice, and others from the early to mid 1990’s, it’s all there.
Newsflash: Iraq is already in Civil War. The Americans cannot say that, because to do so would be to admit defeat, and they have been defeated. The country is a cesspool of violence and corruption, millions of people are out of work and homeless, the human-rights situation is nothing short of appalling, and yet they continue to do nothing of significance to help alleviate these issues.
The endgame in Iraq is an obvious one; let the situation deteriorate to a level where the case can be made to split the country up into more manageable pieces, so the interests of Big Business and the American Gov’t can more easily be protected. This has, and will, lead to immeasurable suffering for the Iraqi people, and if you think we have a “terrorist” problem now, just wait.
The current “situation” in North Korea is directly attributable to the extreme lack of diplomatic contact over the past six years. The N/ Koreans have repeatedly offered to give up the quest for Nuclear Arms in return for assurances that America would not attack them; would engage in bilateral talks, and provide aid – none of which has happened, so viola, nuclear test. The same can be said for the Middle East Peace Process – they have no interest in promoting a stable and functional Arabian Middle East… voila, Lebanon 2006…
Finally, judging any American Administration’s ability, moral righteousness, or competence on the polls taken from the general public, is an utter waste of time. There isn’t a more isolated, unaware, and undereducated population in the Western World than in the U.S. It’s like asking me what I think about the reclassification of Pluto… I have no idea, and no business commenting on it.
STL
What I hate is lies, corruption, hidden agendas, offensive wars based on said lies, the complete disregard for Laws, International or otherwise, and the propagation of myths that have served to further alienate people of different races and social-economic status. Not too worried who in particular is engaged in this behavior at the time, I have an intense dislike for it all. That, and almost anything that ends with "ism."
Newsflash: America and it’s WMD(their Grade 2 catchphrase), Army, and Intelligence Services are terrorizing people all over the world. Ask the 700 folks on the 5 year vacation in Cuba, or Mr. Arar, maybe the citizens of Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, or Iran. 9/11 was/is an excuse to pursue an agenda, and if you honestly can sit there and say you don’t see that, well, I truly feel sorry. As I’ve suggested here in the past – if you don’t want to believe me, read the writings of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowtiz, Rice, and others from the early to mid 1990’s, it’s all there.
Newsflash: Iraq is already in Civil War. The Americans cannot say that, because to do so would be to admit defeat, and they have been defeated. The country is a cesspool of violence and corruption, millions of people are out of work and homeless, the human-rights situation is nothing short of appalling, and yet they continue to do nothing of significance to help alleviate these issues.
The endgame in Iraq is an obvious one; let the situation deteriorate to a level where the case can be made to split the country up into more manageable pieces, so the interests of Big Business and the American Gov’t can more easily be protected. This has, and will, lead to immeasurable suffering for the Iraqi people, and if you think we have a “terrorist” problem now, just wait.
The current “situation” in North Korea is directly attributable to the extreme lack of diplomatic contact over the past six years. The N/ Koreans have repeatedly offered to give up the quest for Nuclear Arms in return for assurances that America would not attack them; would engage in bilateral talks, and provide aid – none of which has happened, so viola, nuclear test. The same can be said for the Middle East Peace Process – they have no interest in promoting a stable and functional Arabian Middle East… voila, Lebanon 2006…
Finally, judging any American Administration’s ability, moral righteousness, or competence on the polls taken from the general public, is an utter waste of time. There isn’t a more isolated, unaware, and undereducated population in the Western World than in the U.S. It’s like asking me what I think about the reclassification of Pluto… I have no idea, and no business commenting on it.
STL
Muskeg,
Your drive-by insults of anyone who offers a different opinion on the "war on terror" are friggin' hilarious. Not once have you offered any intelligent commentary, or had anything to add to a conversation. Keep it up, the forces of ignorance need more warriors like yourself!
V1 isn't singing to the masses, those voices you hear represent the pathetic 25-35% of people who remain steadfast in their refusal to use their brains. They continue to support wars of aggression, draconian security measures, the evisceration of civil liberties, torture, and genocide. Maybe it's because they're afraid, maybe it's because they believe Jesus is coming back to save them, or maybe it's because they're ignorant bigots who enjoy the slaughter of people of a different race or religion from theirs.
Here's a pretty good (and humorous) analysis of what is actually involved in brewing up TATP in flying toilet terror labs.
With regards to Noth Korean nukes, let's not forget who sold themthe reactor technology. (Hint: It wasn't china)
Your drive-by insults of anyone who offers a different opinion on the "war on terror" are friggin' hilarious. Not once have you offered any intelligent commentary, or had anything to add to a conversation. Keep it up, the forces of ignorance need more warriors like yourself!
V1 isn't singing to the masses, those voices you hear represent the pathetic 25-35% of people who remain steadfast in their refusal to use their brains. They continue to support wars of aggression, draconian security measures, the evisceration of civil liberties, torture, and genocide. Maybe it's because they're afraid, maybe it's because they believe Jesus is coming back to save them, or maybe it's because they're ignorant bigots who enjoy the slaughter of people of a different race or religion from theirs.
Here's a pretty good (and humorous) analysis of what is actually involved in brewing up TATP in flying toilet terror labs.
With regards to Noth Korean nukes, let's not forget who sold themthe reactor technology. (Hint: It wasn't china)
