Seneca or RMC?

mike662 · Post by **mike662** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:48 pm

Hi! I've been researching about flying schools and have come to the conclusion that one of these two options is best for me for getting into the commercial aviation business: a) going to Seneca college in Toronto or b) going to the Royal Military College in Kingston, ON. Has anyone here gone through either program? If so, any recommendations on which to take? I heard that a lot of people come out of the RMC with pretty much guaranteed jobs. After you serve your time in the Canadian Forces to pay back the bill for your training, how many hours do you end up with? Also, when serving back your time, how much flying do you actually do? And for any Seneca grads, how easy/hard is it to land that job with a large commercial airline? And what kind of high school average do you need to get into either program? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Where'd who go? · Post by **Where'd who go?** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:05 pm

http://www.saultcollege.ca

WWG?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:22 pm

I believe the requirements for Seneca are now much higher than they used to be (they switched to an Applied Degree program). While you still get the same high level of training that you did before, you have an extra year, a few co-op terms, and about 40 hours of LOFT training in a CRJ simulator.

Sault College is another excellent choice if you're thinking of staying in Ontario, as is Confederation in Thunder Bay. These three schools are all basically regarded the same once you advance far enough in your aviation career.

Unfortunately, you always find people who have had bad experiences from graduates in each of those programs and end up hating [insert college name] grads.

I've talked to tons of people who have gone to all three of these, and you always find a few from each program and each year who get the "I'm better than you because I went to [college name]" attitude. Just dont let it go to your head, whereever you go, and you will find your aviation career much more enjoyable and encounter far less hostility.

Most graduates from these programs are great people and pretty good pilots to boot. One bad apple spoils the bunch, I believe?

mike662 · Post by **mike662** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:39 pm

Thanks for the replies. I've been reading some more and found that if you decide to go the military way, then there is a chance you may not get to fly jets, and they may send you to fly heli's. I would rather do more flying time, so is it maybe best to go through the college program, work for a while at a flying club as an instructor, and then move up to commercial? Also, Air Canada requires you to have at least 1000 hrs flight time to get hired. Does anyone know of someone who was hired with less than that and right or soon after finishing the college program?

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:01 pm

mike662 wrote:Thanks for the replies. I've been reading some more and found that if you decide to go the military way, then there is a chance you may not get to fly jets, and they may send you to fly heli's. I would rather do more flying time, so is it maybe best to go through the college program, work for a while at a flying club as an instructor, and then move up to commercial? Also, Air Canada requires you to have at least 1000 hrs flight time to get hired. Does anyone know of someone who was hired with less than that and right or soon after finishing the college program?

Sorry if this isn't a troll I'll be the nicest one here and let you down easy.

AC is not hiring at 1000 hours and won't for quite a few years to come. You can expect to either work the ramp for a year or instruct for 2 years before jumping into the right seat of a small turbo prop, no matter what the sales men at the schools say.

The industry is getting better for low time pilots but low time as in 1000-1500 hours, and the hour requirements are getting lower all the time. If you do get hired right seat out of school expect to be a career Co-joe, you will have trouble filling your ATPL requirments.

A lot of "kids" get told by the schools that the industry is showing a lot of movement and a lot of movement to come and that they will have no problem finding a job, WJ or AC hires their grads all the time, the between the lines is after 5-10 years their grads get hired. Don't become frustrated if you spend $50,000 to work the ramp, this is the nature of the industry. As much as it sucks I don't see it changing for years to come.

Work hard and you will see the Big Red in 5-10 years.

Lurch

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:40 pm

The military doesn't need people who really want to fly commercial but are there to build time. If you go Military, plan on being there for atleast 12ish years, 16ish years (including RMC). There is no gaurantee what you'll fly.

You seem to be interested in the military only as a means to your preferred end. If this is your attitude, might I suggest that it will take more time and effort than you're willing to invest.

Also, it pisses off the people who actually want to serve (those that I've talked to anyway, and me too) to no end to see folks like you get in while they wait on technicallities. I'm not saying I'm pissed at you or anything, you seem not to have all the details, but I think that the very idea of using the military to get a commercial job while dedicated people are waiting is unethical. You might consider this when deciding.

If you do actually have an interest in the Forces and then decide once you're in not to continue past your first term of service, that's one thing, but to set out to use and abuse the system is a little underhanded.

Serving your country should not be an easy way to scam a bunch of hours, IM(NS)HO.

If money is tight and you really do want to get some post-secondary while on your way to Big Red, Sault/Seneca/Confed are great ways to kill 2 birds. Confed is the quickest, however, you won't get the multi-ifr. If you're interested in flying multi soon, Seneca or Sault is for you. Sault would be faster and cheaper, but it's a diploma instead of a degree. (caveate here, I have no idea what an 'applied' degree is, is it a equivalent to BA? Who knows? No one has been able to answer that for me, so you might be no better off than the diploma.) Also, don't forget that there are options out of province too, though they may be more expensive.

There is also the option of just doing flight training and education seperately. A quick search on this forum will turn up lots on that topic.

I hope this helps, good luck and let folks here know what you decide, there's plenty of help for the asking.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:48 pm

I say go to the school with the best jackets.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:13 pm

istp wrote:I say go to the school with the best jackets.

I've applied this method of choice to all aspects of my life and I'm the coolest person on Earth.

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:41 pm

mellow_pilot wrote:Serving your country should not be an easy way to scam a bunch of hours, IM(NS)HO.

I agree 110% - Anything you decide to do, do it because you want to, and you plan on putting forth full effort. Never half-ass something just to get to the other side.

mellow_pilot wrote:Sault would be faster and cheaper, but it's a diploma instead of a degree. (caveate here, I have no idea what an 'applied' degree is, is it a equivalent to BA? Who knows? No one has been able to answer that for me, so you might be no better off than the diploma.)

Please note that Sault College is in the process of implementing a degree option with Algoma University. Nothing is in stone yet, but when it is implemented it will be open to past grads as well.

I do not want to spread rumours about the details, but if you're interested keep an eye on the website.

- Isis

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:30 pm

Have they changed the cirriculum from technology to business? Last I heard about this it was going to be a business degree, which meant no upgrade for past grads...

Let the rumours fly!!!!!

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:35 pm

Guess the rumours can't be avoided, but what can you do?!

It will be a business degree, with the current curriculum unchanged. If they want to shorten the time involved that would require a curriculum change. However, past grads will still be welcome to the program. Infact, there has already been a past grad who was given more than normal credit for his courses at the college.

Buttom line, it's still in the bargaining process with many kinks to work out. I just wanted to bring it to surface because it'd be a shame for someone to not look at the Sault program simply because it did not involve a degree.

- Isis

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:39 pm

Yeah, they've been working on that degree thing for a while. I'd go back if they fired up a degree program at Algoma U.

-istp

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:46 pm

Well, that's the thing. They know they are losing a lot of potential students because of the increased importance placed on degrees. Not only would they open themselves to a new market, they'd have a lot of returning students!

Including present staff members!

Here's hoping the paperwork doesn't take too long.

- Isis

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:11 pm

I vote for the Sault....you don't really need the degree unless you plan to work outside of aviation...

mike662 · Post by **mike662** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:40 am

Thanks again for the replies. I've still got another 2 years to go before I choose for sure, but I think I'll stick to the college way. Anyone know what the demand for the programs are? How hard is it to get into the programs? Thanks again!

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:42 am

The aviation program at Confederation College was undersubscribed this year.

rm_pic · Post by **rm_pic** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:20 pm

Sault College does have a degree option with Griffith University in Australia.

Ive heard heresay about one being developed with Trent U, but don't quote me on that, it's just something I've heard.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:50 pm

Since when?

As of 2 years ago the only official agreement with Sault C and a university was with ERAU in the states. I'm really interested in this Alberta thing (mainly on the behalf of friends).

CYQT · Post by **CYQT** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:32 pm

Sault has an agreement with Embry-Riddle?? I never knew this, how does it work? cost? any info? links?
thanks

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:12 pm

Basically they give you a bunch of credit for your time at the Soo. You end up doing 3 semseters and voila, you have a degree.

The guys I talked to that did it quoted about 30k US. That's for the one year, tuition, living expenses, etc. I think conversion to US licences was extra, can't remember.

If you're at the Soo now (or graduated recently too I suppose) you can get a copy of the artculation agreement from the dean's office. If you are there, I recommend talking to the CFI about it, he can put you in touch with the proper folks.

You may also want to send an email to the admin at ERAU. They can tell you exactly what you'll have to do. The S C syllabus has changed slightly since the last agreement update (that I know of, this is coming up on 2 years old news now), so there may be some more or less credit awarded. Again, talk to the folks in charge. Good luck.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:23 pm

Embry Riddle will credit you a bunch of credits from Sault College.

You have to spend 3 semesters (12months) there, then whammo bammo, you get a bachelor in aviation science.

IMHO, you pay 30-40 grand to buy a degree. Shows how shitty american private universities are that they will take Canadian college credits as university credits when our own universities scoff at college credits.

But if you want those letters on your resume, why not buy them? It's a good deal! Pay the cash, and cut out 2-3 years of studying in Canada!

But seriously, it's all about the jackets.

-istp

Golden Flyer · Post by **Golden Flyer** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:53 pm

People! People! People... Please don't get excited over going to Embry Riddle. I almost went there and when it was time to go ahead with the loan I cancelled out... $120 USD Per Credit Hour + Flight Costs.... When we did the calculation, it came down to taking a loan for a $140 000 US from Nelnet. At the time I was young and naive. I thought I'd make my way to a 747 in a matter of time and make $200 000/yr because apparently they sugar coated it that eventually you'll be making that much money! Talk to the Riddle guys on APC and they'll let you know what I'm talking about! They say they have connects to regional airlines, but it is not for certain... and if you do get hired by a regional, you have to pay another $60 000 to get type rate with Mesaba. When you start flying, your F/O pay is some $22 000 U.S. on a CRJ..... There are alot of good Canadian universities. Go to RMC. If you are dedicated, try get into McGill, get a good degree and join the Air Force.

*** P.S. The joint program is for an Aeronautical Science Degree. What
if your medicals ever ran out? What if you decided to change
profession because (God Forbid) the airline industry took
another hit that was worse than the 2000-present season!

There Is My Story & My 100th Dedication Post If Its Helpful.....

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:12 pm

Join the Airforce if you want to join the Airforce. If you want to fly civie (AC/corporate/etc) DON'T JOIN UP!!!!!! It jsut doesn't make sense, and it fucks the people who actually want in!

Isis · Post by **Isis** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:32 pm

Before the rumours get carried away...

Yes, there is an agreement between Sault College and an Australian University. I can get the info if you want it (PM me).

No, there isn't an agreement between Sault College and Trent University.

They are currently working on an agreement between the college and Algoma University also in Sault Ste. Marie.

Your best bet is to contact the Dean's office at the college. Get the info from the horse's mouth - so to speak.

- Isis

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:22 am

When did the Aussie deal go down? I heard about that one, but when I checked in to it, it turned out that there was no agreement. There had been a student who went down there and got some credit, but no formal deal. Has this changed?

Seneca or RMC?

Seneca or RMC?

degree @ sault