This has probably been brought up already however...
Why is it that we frown so much on pilots buying a PPC but spending the same amount on more float time is OK?
I'm just curious - I DO frown on people that buy PPC's and I DID "buy" a few more hours on floats but why is that so much more acceptable??
Buying "time".
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Shady McSly
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shitdisturber
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co-joe
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I have no idea shady. Nobody has ever asked that here bofore.
Oh okay, I know. Because I never bought time other than my class IV so if you have to do it then you stoop lower than I ever had to. And I graduated when there actually were no jobs, now there are jobs everywhere so if you are either not willing to drive as far as I did, or not willing to work as hard as I had to, then I feeel that you are not worthy of getting paid to fly.
Perhaps it's petty, but I hate it when anyone has it easier than I did, and I especially hate it when people buy their way into anything. While I'm freezing my nuts off in line for the bar and you slip the bouncer a 20 and slide right in, I feel like offering to rearrange your teeth for you once I finally do get in. Not because I'm better than you, but because I don't have 20 bucks to my name to throw away, let alone 20 grand to buy some hours.
You get where I'm coming from?
Oh okay, I know. Because I never bought time other than my class IV so if you have to do it then you stoop lower than I ever had to. And I graduated when there actually were no jobs, now there are jobs everywhere so if you are either not willing to drive as far as I did, or not willing to work as hard as I had to, then I feeel that you are not worthy of getting paid to fly.
Perhaps it's petty, but I hate it when anyone has it easier than I did, and I especially hate it when people buy their way into anything. While I'm freezing my nuts off in line for the bar and you slip the bouncer a 20 and slide right in, I feel like offering to rearrange your teeth for you once I finally do get in. Not because I'm better than you, but because I don't have 20 bucks to my name to throw away, let alone 20 grand to buy some hours.
You get where I'm coming from?
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Cat Driver
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Buying float plane time is getting experience.
PPC's are a TC thing and airplane specific with zero relationship to individual pilot experience or flying time and knowlege.
A pilot could have fifty thousand hours on every type known to mankind, but if he/she wants to fly for the holder of a OC in something as basic as a Navajo for instance they must go through the same training and PPC ride as the lowest time pilot in the industry.
The PPC is also transferable from one company to another and this is abused throughout the industry.
PPC's are a TC thing and airplane specific with zero relationship to individual pilot experience or flying time and knowlege.
A pilot could have fifty thousand hours on every type known to mankind, but if he/she wants to fly for the holder of a OC in something as basic as a Navajo for instance they must go through the same training and PPC ride as the lowest time pilot in the industry.
The PPC is also transferable from one company to another and this is abused throughout the industry.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shitdisturber
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How is his paying for extra time on a float plane any different from your paying for your instructor rating? Hell if I had the money I'd do a fifty hour float course just for the fun of it, and I have no intention of ever working as a bush pilot.co-joe wrote:I have no idea shady. Nobody has ever asked that here bofore.
Oh okay, I know. Because I never bought time other than my class IV so if you have to do it then you stoop lower than I ever had to. And I graduated when there actually were no jobs, now there are jobs everywhere so if you are either not willing to drive as far as I did, or not willing to work as hard as I had to, then I feeel that you are not worthy of getting paid to fly.
Perhaps it's petty, but I hate it when anyone has it easier than I did, and I especially hate it when people buy their way into anything. While I'm freezing my nuts off in line for the bar and you slip the bouncer a 20 and slide right in, I feel like offering to rearrange your teeth for you once I finally do get in. Not because I'm better than you, but because I don't have 20 bucks to my name to throw away, let alone 20 grand to buy some hours.
You get where I'm coming from?
Last edited by shitdisturber on Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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co-joe
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Good question. I gues on a fundamental level it isn't. If I don't have a Class IV I cannot legally work as an instructor in Canada. Now if I have a float rating I can legally be employed as a float.
Thanks to the high volume of float crashes most insurance companies (if not all) won't insure you to fly floats so people are left with only one option.
Now I suppose they could all refuse to pay for time, and operators whould have to buck up and do it...but then if nobody payed for an instructor rating, then schools would have to do the same so the argument goes around and around, and in the end somebody will always step forward and pay for their job.
But I won't. If I wanted to fly floats badly, I would go for the right seat of an otter and learn from somebody who knows what they're doing. Maybe then somebody with the experience can teach me how not to kill myself, and how to do neat tricks like roll the float on full flap takeoffs.
Thanks to the high volume of float crashes most insurance companies (if not all) won't insure you to fly floats so people are left with only one option.
Now I suppose they could all refuse to pay for time, and operators whould have to buck up and do it...but then if nobody payed for an instructor rating, then schools would have to do the same so the argument goes around and around, and in the end somebody will always step forward and pay for their job.
But I won't. If I wanted to fly floats badly, I would go for the right seat of an otter and learn from somebody who knows what they're doing. Maybe then somebody with the experience can teach me how not to kill myself, and how to do neat tricks like roll the float on full flap takeoffs.
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Doctor Evil
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Its no different. If anything your float experience is probably worth a lot more in the real world than Class 4 instructing ever will be.How is his paying for extra time on a float plane any different from your paying for your instructor rating?
Do the guys who buy PPC's actually get ahead of the rest of us? I would have thought their lack of time on type would still be a limiting factor.
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Doctor Evil
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Its no different. If anything your float experience is probably worth a lot more in the real world than Class 4 instructing ever will be.How is his paying for extra time on a float plane any different from your paying for your instructor rating?
Do the guys who buy PPC's actually get ahead of the rest of us? I would have thought their lack of time on type would still be a limiting factor.
How did you guys get your 200 hours for your commercial licence? Was it given to you? Is that somehow more virtuous?
P.S. I have paid, out of my own pocket, for thousands of hours of very expensive flying time. Should have I sat around and waited for someone to give it to me? Where do I go, to get in line, to fly aerobatics in a virtuous, blue collar-approved process?
P.S. I have paid, out of my own pocket, for thousands of hours of very expensive flying time. Should have I sat around and waited for someone to give it to me? Where do I go, to get in line, to fly aerobatics in a virtuous, blue collar-approved process?
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co-joe
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Hedley, you paid for thousands of hours? Whoa you got one rich sugar momma or what? Where can I hook me one of those?Hedley wrote:How did you guys get your 200 hours for your commercial licence? Was it given to you? Is that somehow more virtuous?
P.S. I have paid, out of my own pocket, for thousands of hours of very expensive flying time. Should have I sat around and waited for someone to give it to me? Where do I go, to get in line, to fly aerobatics in a virtuous, blue collar-approved process?
Let me take a shot at this.
first of all, a PPC should be a company thing. They want you to work for them. TC requires a PPC.
My experience is that most pilots who buy a PPC, do so because they are not employable due to experience, so they buy the PPC, and some company who wants to do shortcuts hires them. Bad scene all the way around. As cat mention the Navajo, search the crash stats in the TSB files...you will see case after case of low time pilots hitting the ground...a plane that is easy to fly with both engines running,.....but lose an engine and you can find that gentle little bird will eat you alive. It is more than jumping ahead...it is pilots who think that they can jump the experience requirement by buying a PPC....very shallow and dangerous thinking.
As to buying float time..It is not a double standard. You are buying experience...and as someone mentioned, not really philosophically different than renting a plane.
My thoughts to those low time pilots who are thinking of buying a PPC....dont. You are fooling youreself or going to get a carreer FO position from it.
NOTICE TO READER:The above mya be completely wrong..
first of all, a PPC should be a company thing. They want you to work for them. TC requires a PPC.
My experience is that most pilots who buy a PPC, do so because they are not employable due to experience, so they buy the PPC, and some company who wants to do shortcuts hires them. Bad scene all the way around. As cat mention the Navajo, search the crash stats in the TSB files...you will see case after case of low time pilots hitting the ground...a plane that is easy to fly with both engines running,.....but lose an engine and you can find that gentle little bird will eat you alive. It is more than jumping ahead...it is pilots who think that they can jump the experience requirement by buying a PPC....very shallow and dangerous thinking.
As to buying float time..It is not a double standard. You are buying experience...and as someone mentioned, not really philosophically different than renting a plane.
My thoughts to those low time pilots who are thinking of buying a PPC....dont. You are fooling youreself or going to get a carreer FO position from it.
NOTICE TO READER:The above mya be completely wrong..
People seem to think that the path they chose was the best and if they see another way of doing it, that wasn't quite the best way.
Buy a PPC? Whatever. You'll still have to work at getting a job. Most places won't hire a pilot with 5 hours on type unless they have alot of other experience to offer.
Buy an instructor rating? Go for it. Costs the same as a PPC, takes a hell of alot more time and effort but you still have to find a first job at a school that wants experienced instructors. Once there, fill your boots with single circuit time.
Either way, you've bought your job and you're trying to avoid the ramping stage. Is that ramping better or worse than the previous two? Who knows at this point. Just go get a job when the market's good and enjoy it.
Buy a PPC? Whatever. You'll still have to work at getting a job. Most places won't hire a pilot with 5 hours on type unless they have alot of other experience to offer.
Buy an instructor rating? Go for it. Costs the same as a PPC, takes a hell of alot more time and effort but you still have to find a first job at a school that wants experienced instructors. Once there, fill your boots with single circuit time.
Either way, you've bought your job and you're trying to avoid the ramping stage. Is that ramping better or worse than the previous two? Who knows at this point. Just go get a job when the market's good and enjoy it.
Everything comes in threes....
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Cat Driver
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" so they buy the PPC, and some company who wants to do shortcuts hires them. "
Which brings us back full circle to the root of the problem.
PPC's should not be transferable from one company to another.
PPC's should be done in company , by the company and this would solve a lot of problems.
Which brings us back full circle to the root of the problem.
PPC's should not be transferable from one company to another.
PPC's should be done in company , by the company and this would solve a lot of problems.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
trey kule wrote: As cat mention the Navajo, search the crash stats in the TSB files...you will see case after case of low time pilots hitting the ground...a plane that is easy to fly with both engines running,.....but lose an engine and you can find that gentle little bird will eat you alive. It is more than jumping ahead...it is pilots who think that they can jump the experience requirement by buying a PPC....very shallow and dangerous thinking.
My thoughts to those low time pilots who are thinking of buying a PPC....dont. You are fooling youreself or going to get a carreer FO position from it.
An operator who doesn't pay for training doesn't pay for maintenance...
We have 200 hour F/O's flying 737's in Europe.... Maybe Canadian pilots are just to stupid to fly??? Or maybe they need to gain all that valuable experience of flying a ho at 250 hours on the ramp so that way they won't be low time by the time they get online with the company?
Sitting on the ramp for 3 years or comming out of college and buying a PPC, guess what, you'll still have 200 hours, still be low time... So I don't understand how 200 hour F/O's who jumped the que are the ones to blame for crashes.... And I still don't get how an F/O is to blame for a crash when you should have a captain with him....
Placing TSB into the equation was funny....
The only reason/person that has a valid point in the arguement is Co-Joe with his "Hey, I had to buy an instructor rating, I had to build time, I had to go work the ramp, and because I had to, you must do the same."
And because someone started the "hey I had to" everyone else has to, but then someone else came buy and "Bought a PPC" and he became option #2.. And in the end, everyone was paying for the Hours, PPC's putting in Ramp time. Eventually it became the norm to pay Air Canada employees 25000/yr, or signing 30k training bonds at Jetsgo.
An "I" in pIlot..... And usually the I's screw everyone else over including themselves.....
Duh ....Hedley, you paid for thousands of hours?
That's a half-million bucks there on the ramp.
Plus another half-million spent so far in gas, parts, maintenance, hangar, insurance, accountants and lawyers to fight Transport.
Plus another third of a million for this:
And another third of a million:
To me, a resume sliding out of the fax machine with 250.4 hours on it and a Navajo PPC speaks to the intelligence of the candidate. Are they seriously expecting that at 250 hrs, they can fly a Navajo as PIC or even single pilot IFR and deal with all the things involved? Engine failures at gross wieght in a tired machine? Flying in the bush where there may/may not be approaches? Dealing with the weather and operational pressures placed on you by some of the shadier operators with dollar signs in thier eyes? If they're just looking for a leg up for the right seat, they've wasted thier money. It doesn't take a PPC to learn from the captain while you fly.
Someone with 250 hrs is going to get hired (for the most part) because of demonstrated work ethic, good attitude, and/or an internal reccomend. Not because you shelled out 5 large for a navajo ride.
Cheers,
PP
Someone with 250 hrs is going to get hired (for the most part) because of demonstrated work ethic, good attitude, and/or an internal reccomend. Not because you shelled out 5 large for a navajo ride.
Cheers,
PP
Some people are like slinkies: Not much good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
Three things come to mind.
1) If an employer needs to hire a low time right seat guy they may chose to take the fellow who already has a PPC same if they need a hightime left seat guy one with a PPC is better than no PPC. It means they know a bit more about the machine than another guy that doesn't have a PPC. I agree a PPC doesn't mean competence but no matter how you look at it it's a step ahead of the next guy.
Someone might say but a PPC is only 5hrs or whatever so an employer in really not much further ahead. Well I say a Multi engine rating or a float rating is only 5-10hrs so why does everyone cough up for those instead of getting the employer to pay for them?
2) Most, not all, but most commercial guys go out and get a Multi-IFR rating. This is the same as buying a PPC in my books, after all chances are your first gig is going to be working on the ramp for a year or two or flying a single engine so why not wait to get the Multi? and again why not get the employer to pay for that one?
3) Which boils down to my last point. In other trades such as welder, machinist, millwright, plumber most employers will take you on as a first year apprentice with no experience at all. You work, show your stuff and then you go to school a little bit each year and you move up in terms of responsibility and pay. Some good employers even pay for this schooling. So why don’t employers just hire guys with no license at all or maybe just a private license and as these potential pilots work their two – three years on the ramp they can slowly work towards getting their commercial license?
The answers of course are straight forward. Why by a PPC is the same as why buy a multi and why by a commercial pilots license. Because other people are doing it and most employers are going to take the 300hr pilot with the PPC over the 300hr fellow with “only” the Comercial and Multi-IFR. The only way around this is for everyone to stop buying, stop paying and start demanding a true apprenticeship program like other trades where the employer must sponsor each pilot.
I know that sounds crazy but hey is it fair that you and I can afford to buy our commercial pilots license and Multi-IFR and the other fellow who might be a hard worker but can’t scrape up the cash to do all that flying especially the time building that isn’t covered by student loans can’t get a break because us “rich” pilots bought our commercial licenses?
I have never bought a PPC. I hate the idea of having to do it. But back in the day when it was hard to get a job I gave it serious though and if I had the cash I probably would have. It’s not right! It’s not the way it should be. But that’s the way ALL of us have made this industry. We all buy way more than we should and that just forces the next guy to buy even more. . .
1) If an employer needs to hire a low time right seat guy they may chose to take the fellow who already has a PPC same if they need a hightime left seat guy one with a PPC is better than no PPC. It means they know a bit more about the machine than another guy that doesn't have a PPC. I agree a PPC doesn't mean competence but no matter how you look at it it's a step ahead of the next guy.
Someone might say but a PPC is only 5hrs or whatever so an employer in really not much further ahead. Well I say a Multi engine rating or a float rating is only 5-10hrs so why does everyone cough up for those instead of getting the employer to pay for them?
2) Most, not all, but most commercial guys go out and get a Multi-IFR rating. This is the same as buying a PPC in my books, after all chances are your first gig is going to be working on the ramp for a year or two or flying a single engine so why not wait to get the Multi? and again why not get the employer to pay for that one?
3) Which boils down to my last point. In other trades such as welder, machinist, millwright, plumber most employers will take you on as a first year apprentice with no experience at all. You work, show your stuff and then you go to school a little bit each year and you move up in terms of responsibility and pay. Some good employers even pay for this schooling. So why don’t employers just hire guys with no license at all or maybe just a private license and as these potential pilots work their two – three years on the ramp they can slowly work towards getting their commercial license?
The answers of course are straight forward. Why by a PPC is the same as why buy a multi and why by a commercial pilots license. Because other people are doing it and most employers are going to take the 300hr pilot with the PPC over the 300hr fellow with “only” the Comercial and Multi-IFR. The only way around this is for everyone to stop buying, stop paying and start demanding a true apprenticeship program like other trades where the employer must sponsor each pilot.
I know that sounds crazy but hey is it fair that you and I can afford to buy our commercial pilots license and Multi-IFR and the other fellow who might be a hard worker but can’t scrape up the cash to do all that flying especially the time building that isn’t covered by student loans can’t get a break because us “rich” pilots bought our commercial licenses?
I have never bought a PPC. I hate the idea of having to do it. But back in the day when it was hard to get a job I gave it serious though and if I had the cash I probably would have. It’s not right! It’s not the way it should be. But that’s the way ALL of us have made this industry. We all buy way more than we should and that just forces the next guy to buy even more. . .
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Cat Driver
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O.K....
Once more.
The problem with the PPC issue in Canada is they are manditory to fly every different multi engine airplane you fly.
The PPC hours etc. are set in stone in the company ops manual.
Say 4 hours training for xxx airplane. once you get said PPC it becomes transferable to any company.
WTF is wrong with non transerable PPC's and having the company chief pilot decide who gets the PPC and how many hours it takes, and it is only good for that company.
Canada is going to SMS, wouldn't that method work in SMS?
Or am I getting so fuc.in senile I am missing something in this issue?
Once more.
The problem with the PPC issue in Canada is they are manditory to fly every different multi engine airplane you fly.
The PPC hours etc. are set in stone in the company ops manual.
Say 4 hours training for xxx airplane. once you get said PPC it becomes transferable to any company.
WTF is wrong with non transerable PPC's and having the company chief pilot decide who gets the PPC and how many hours it takes, and it is only good for that company.
Canada is going to SMS, wouldn't that method work in SMS?
Or am I getting so fuc.in senile I am missing something in this issue?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shitdisturber
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Actually Cat, the real issue is that the PPC is a joke played on the industry by Transport Canada that should be abolished. The whole reason behind the PPC is that it would somehow enhance safety and reduce accident rates by causing people to go through a regular recurrency. How that has happened is completely beyond me since we have to go through a regular recurrency anyway to maintain an IFR rating. In fact, it did absolutely nothing to reduce accidents, how can it? In reality all your friends at TC have done is to create a smokescreen so that when accidents happen they can point to it and say, "it wasn't our fault, the crew passed a PPC ride we've done our best to monitor them."Cat Driver wrote:O.K....
Once more.
The problem with the PPC issue in Canada is they are manditory to fly every different multi engine airplane you fly.
The PPC hours etc. are set in stone in the company ops manual.
Say 4 hours training for xxx airplane. once you get said PPC it becomes transferable to any company.
WTF is wrong with non transerable PPC's and having the company chief pilot decide who gets the PPC and how many hours it takes, and it is only good for that company.
Canada is going to SMS, wouldn't that method work in SMS?
Or am I getting so fuc.in senile I am missing something in this issue?
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
shitdisturber I would like to comment further but it seems that you and the rest will have to carry on on your own, I have had a few PM's between one of Avcanadas moderators and myself and I don't wish to ruin this hallowed forum any longer.
"
In my opinion you could bring a lot more than never ending complaints about Transport Canada to the table. You have a lifetime of flying experience, yet you can't for one week stop yourself from carrying on about transport canada. You're one of the few users I get private messages about saying "i can't handle reading avcanada anymore because of ...". "
You be careful now and don't get yourself labeled as a real shitdisturber, cause you may drive away to many members like I do.
Cat
"
In my opinion you could bring a lot more than never ending complaints about Transport Canada to the table. You have a lifetime of flying experience, yet you can't for one week stop yourself from carrying on about transport canada. You're one of the few users I get private messages about saying "i can't handle reading avcanada anymore because of ...". "
You be careful now and don't get yourself labeled as a real shitdisturber, cause you may drive away to many members like I do.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Justwannafly
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Great postBobby868 wrote:Three things come to mind.
1) If an employer needs to hire a low time right seat guy they may chose to take the fellow who already has a PPC same if they need a hightime left seat guy one with a PPC is better than no PPC. It means they know a bit more about the machine than another guy that doesn't have a PPC. I agree a PPC doesn't mean competence but no matter how you look at it it's a step ahead of the next guy.
Someone might say but a PPC is only 5hrs or whatever so an employer in really not much further ahead. Well I say a Multi engine rating or a float rating is only 5-10hrs so why does everyone cough up for those instead of getting the employer to pay for them?
2) Most, not all, but most commercial guys go out and get a Multi-IFR rating. This is the same as buying a PPC in my books, after all chances are your first gig is going to be working on the ramp for a year or two or flying a single engine so why not wait to get the Multi? and again why not get the employer to pay for that one?
3) Which boils down to my last point. In other trades such as welder, machinist, millwright, plumber most employers will take you on as a first year apprentice with no experience at all. You work, show your stuff and then you go to school a little bit each year and you move up in terms of responsibility and pay. Some good employers even pay for this schooling. So why don’t employers just hire guys with no license at all or maybe just a private license and as these potential pilots work their two – three years on the ramp they can slowly work towards getting their commercial license?
The answers of course are straight forward. Why by a PPC is the same as why buy a multi and why by a commercial pilots license. Because other people are doing it and most employers are going to take the 300hr pilot with the PPC over the 300hr fellow with “only” the Comercial and Multi-IFR. The only way around this is for everyone to stop buying, stop paying and start demanding a true apprenticeship program like other trades where the employer must sponsor each pilot.
I know that sounds crazy but hey is it fair that you and I can afford to buy our commercial pilots license and Multi-IFR and the other fellow who might be a hard worker but can’t scrape up the cash to do all that flying especially the time building that isn’t covered by student loans can’t get a break because us “rich” pilots bought our commercial licenses?
I have never bought a PPC. I hate the idea of having to do it. But back in the day when it was hard to get a job I gave it serious though and if I had the cash I probably would have. It’s not right! It’s not the way it should be. But that’s the way ALL of us have made this industry. We all buy way more than we should and that just forces the next guy to buy even more. . .
I totaly agree...Me I was one of those people who had to work and train at the same time...& even then train slowly becuase I didn't have the $ to buy it all at once. I look back at the people who had the $$ & yes they are way ahead of me.....but I guess that's life. I know of one guy who paid for everything all the way up to where he is now. From a Navajo PPC to Jet training to Jetsgo...He's now flying A320's...thats a LOT bigger then me. However I look at almost every company he work'd for & they were the shadies ones around (yep Regency is on his resume) So...that tells me that he's a lot braver then me cause he flew planes that I would never fly in, let alone fly everyday. He also must have gone through a LOT of $$$ His Parents paid for all of it...which is a good thing cuase who knows how long it would take to pay back all that $
So what I'm trying to say with my ramblings is...Yes PPCs will get you ahead...but that doesnt' make it right
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shitdisturber
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No worries Cat, what are they going to do, take away my breathing privileges? If I can outrage, offend, or annoy a few readers every day then my mission is achieved. Along the way I like to throw in the odd serious comment, just to keep people off balance. Take it easy Cat, I may be forced to come by and harass you in person one day when next I'm in Nanaimo.Cat Driver wrote: You be careful now and don't get yourself labeled as a real shitdisturber, cause you may drive away to many members like I do.
Cat
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Shady McSly
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What if it comes to a point (and we may be there soon) where 50hr. on floats gets you a job like the past, and someone goes out and spends thousands getting that extra time because they can find that kind of money...
...but there's another guy who is poor and can't come up with that $$ - so he/she has to @#$! around and maybe work the ramp for a long while -
is that really fair to johnny po'ass?
If one employer says "get 50hr. floats and you have the job" and another says "get a PPC and you have the job" -
What the hell is the difference?????? There might not be any.
...but there's another guy who is poor and can't come up with that $$ - so he/she has to @#$! around and maybe work the ramp for a long while -
is that really fair to johnny po'ass?
If one employer says "get 50hr. floats and you have the job" and another says "get a PPC and you have the job" -
What the hell is the difference?????? There might not be any.
