Using the word "Trip"
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Bcn-In-Bnd
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Last edited by Bcn-In-Bnd on Fri May 08, 2009 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guys, lets read that rule. It says that 'trip' must appear as a suffix to the call sign, ie, 'Spagetti Airlines 069 Heavy Trip'. It does not say anything about using the word trip in any other context, ie, 'We're on a trip from YXU to YTZ' should be just fine.
This works from the stand point of secrecy. I mean how many of us are going to randomly add 'trip' to the end of our call sign? As for keeping it secret, I'd say the controller blew it when he phoned you on the ground. From the sounds of it, your transmission didn't meet the criteria, and if he had just stayed quiet the cat would still be in the bag.
Control Man:
Get an attitude adjustment.
This works from the stand point of secrecy. I mean how many of us are going to randomly add 'trip' to the end of our call sign? As for keeping it secret, I'd say the controller blew it when he phoned you on the ground. From the sounds of it, your transmission didn't meet the criteria, and if he had just stayed quiet the cat would still be in the bag.
Control Man:
Get an attitude adjustment.
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Always Moving
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give me a break
I never hear of.
I would of tel the "WG shift manager" to @#$! off and to show you where is it in the CARS.
Security.... Please we all know that is all a show for the pax.
May be they"whoever came up with this moronic idea" should change the word weekly that way THEY make sure no one knows it
I would of tel the "WG shift manager" to @#$! off and to show you where is it in the CARS.
Security.... Please we all know that is all a show for the pax.
May be they"whoever came up with this moronic idea" should change the word weekly that way THEY make sure no one knows it
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Cat Driver
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Bede :
Are you sure he said he could violate you?
If so phone him back and tell him to file the violation, if he does let us know.
There comes a time when we have to call their bluff.
Soon we will be violated for breathing.
Cat
Are you sure he said he could violate you?
If so phone him back and tell him to file the violation, if he does let us know.
There comes a time when we have to call their bluff.
Soon we will be violated for breathing.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
What a bunch of misfits on this website.......most of you have no clue.
Keep flying in the bush and stay there. Yikes.
I dare you to question the word the next time you fly into a high traffic area in any major city. It might not be readily available but it should be known.
Keep flying in the bush and stay there. Yikes.
I dare you to question the word the next time you fly into a high traffic area in any major city. It might not be readily available but it should be known.
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Always Moving
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Last post
this is my last post in this thread, no matter what!
A330 I use to fly into Addison next to DFW wich is 10x bussier than anything up here in Canada and NEVER heard of it or ever read about it.
And think about it...
It is not in the legal papers(some people have them in their SOP but you could put whatever you want in your SOP)
Not many people know about it(proof here, since everyone is bitching)
And yes CAT you are right it is a bout time people call their bluff.
How can a person do something wrong if it is NOT written anywhere, or are they going to tell me that THIS one is word of mouth. LMAO
Like I used to tell people in CR when they came with "stories" please would you show me in some kind of written paper.
A330 I use to fly into Addison next to DFW wich is 10x bussier than anything up here in Canada and NEVER heard of it or ever read about it.
And think about it...
It is not in the legal papers(some people have them in their SOP but you could put whatever you want in your SOP)
Not many people know about it(proof here, since everyone is bitching)
And yes CAT you are right it is a bout time people call their bluff.
How can a person do something wrong if it is NOT written anywhere, or are they going to tell me that THIS one is word of mouth. LMAO
Like I used to tell people in CR when they came with "stories" please would you show me in some kind of written paper.
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Bcn-In-Bnd
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A330 wrote:What a bunch of misfits on this website.......most of you have no clue.
Keep flying in the bush and stay there. Yikes.
I dare you to question the word the next time you fly into a high traffic area in any major city. It might not be readily available but it should be known.
Last edited by Bcn-In-Bnd on Fri May 08, 2009 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whether you agree with it or not. Whether you have heard of the code word for hijacking, or not.....It's there. It's real. It exists.
We can argue all day about how dumb or beneficial it may be. But guess what!?......it's been around for years. I am sorry if most have not heard of it. Perhaps it never did apply to your operation.
Those of you that are too 'old school' to agree with it....shouldn't have to. But be aware of it's exsistance.
Memebers like "A330" have a lot to contribute to this forum. I'd hate to see them not post on Avcanada anymore.
We can argue all day about how dumb or beneficial it may be. But guess what!?......it's been around for years. I am sorry if most have not heard of it. Perhaps it never did apply to your operation.
Those of you that are too 'old school' to agree with it....shouldn't have to. But be aware of it's exsistance.
Memebers like "A330" have a lot to contribute to this forum. I'd hate to see them not post on Avcanada anymore.
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Cat Driver
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And maybe those of us who are "old school " are bright enough to understand stupidity when we see it.
It is stupid to have a rule that can have the serious consequenses of one like this, and then not advise "all " pilots of its existance.
But what really gets me is being threatened with a violation for not knowing about something that is not readily availiable knowledge to "all" pilots.
A330, are you trying to tell us that you have to use code words in your locked cockpit?
Cat
It is stupid to have a rule that can have the serious consequenses of one like this, and then not advise "all " pilots of its existance.
But what really gets me is being threatened with a violation for not knowing about something that is not readily availiable knowledge to "all" pilots.
A330, are you trying to tell us that you have to use code words in your locked cockpit?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
If you were ever caught with stolen goods by the police and you claimed you bought it from 'buddy in a van', whether if you knew it or not to be stolen goods, the cops would say the following to you;Cat Driver wrote: But what really gets me is being threatened with a violation for not knowing about something that is not readily availiable knowledge to "all" pilots.
Cat
"Buyer beware"
And then will proceed to arrest you anyway for possesion of stolen goods.
No excuse for ignorance of the law.
No excuse ANYMORE for not being aware of the significance of the word 'Trip' in Aviation.
Last edited by ... on Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Misfits might be a bit harsh but reading some of the posts........come on. The word has existed and remains however widely known it might be. It's just one of the means available if a hijack situation exists. Do we not view ourselves as professionals? Stop drinking beer while you post on this site.
Just trying to help out....
Just trying to help out....
This is a pretty odd thread. Here's my 14 cents.
1) Somehow, I've known about the use of the word "trip" since I got my glider license with Cadets 20+ years ago. Taught in ground school if I recall correctly. Hijack a glider hmmmm....but whatever.
2) Always Moving - You CAN be reported for a violation for all kinds things you may not know about by the YWG center guy (or any ATC guy) - it just most likely won't stick at the TC or CAT level in this instance. It'd be an interesting case. As you know ignorance is seldom a successful defense with TC. What they could nail you on is non-standard phraseology. Don't yell at me either, I don't make the rules.
3) This whole thread is totally inappropriate. The originator should have asked this question of their CP, not here. Its funny though that some will say the concept of the word "trip" is readily available on the internet to anyone who wants it (ie terrorists) yet most of the pilots here are bitching about non-knowledge of secret code words!!! I guess it WAS a relatively secret term then eh???
4) There is whole plethora of other security features of modern day operations that most pilots flying "out in the bush(no disrespect intended)" will have no idea about. I guess we will be told about them when our level of responsibility or operations warrants that. Just one of those things that will remain a "you know you don't know about" or even a "you don't even know that you don't know about" I guess.
5) ATC was completely correct to fear the worst when the word was used in this instance. It is not unfathomable for an intoxicated "northern" passanger to want the airplane to fly "somewhere else" and atttempt to do so somewhat aggressively.
Real good advice as always on this site. Yes by all means go tell the ATC guy to "fu#k off". Lets see what happens then shall we. "Hey Mav still have the number for that truck driving school".
1) Somehow, I've known about the use of the word "trip" since I got my glider license with Cadets 20+ years ago. Taught in ground school if I recall correctly. Hijack a glider hmmmm....but whatever.
2) Always Moving - You CAN be reported for a violation for all kinds things you may not know about by the YWG center guy (or any ATC guy) - it just most likely won't stick at the TC or CAT level in this instance. It'd be an interesting case. As you know ignorance is seldom a successful defense with TC. What they could nail you on is non-standard phraseology. Don't yell at me either, I don't make the rules.
3) This whole thread is totally inappropriate. The originator should have asked this question of their CP, not here. Its funny though that some will say the concept of the word "trip" is readily available on the internet to anyone who wants it (ie terrorists) yet most of the pilots here are bitching about non-knowledge of secret code words!!! I guess it WAS a relatively secret term then eh???
4) There is whole plethora of other security features of modern day operations that most pilots flying "out in the bush(no disrespect intended)" will have no idea about. I guess we will be told about them when our level of responsibility or operations warrants that. Just one of those things that will remain a "you know you don't know about" or even a "you don't even know that you don't know about" I guess.
5) ATC was completely correct to fear the worst when the word was used in this instance. It is not unfathomable for an intoxicated "northern" passanger to want the airplane to fly "somewhere else" and atttempt to do so somewhat aggressively.
Real good advice as always on this site. Yes by all means go tell the ATC guy to "fu#k off". Lets see what happens then shall we. "Hey Mav still have the number for that truck driving school".
I never knew this post would take off. I think the idea of not discussing things is stupid. I was the FO, jj the capt. She was on the phone with the ATC guy. He said that he could of called NORAD and we would have gotten a big fine. Wheather thats a TC fine or a DoD fine, I don't know. Maybe they should start calling in all the 172 who tell ATC they're on a trip from Thunder Bay to Sioux Lookout.
Just backing up the guys that are not getting defensive about this.
Using "trip" at the end of a call sign to indicate a Hijack issue has been out there for a long time. Probably so long that instructors at certain levels have never heard of it ,so you dont get told it ,and never pass it on. and soon its not general knowledge any more. BIG DEAL NOW YOU KNOW 
Taxing in with your flaps down onto the stand is another one that was a visual signal thats been around for ever. I have been there a few times but as yet a swat team has not jumped onto the plane and nobody gets violated. Just nasty look at the copilot to tell him to bring the flaps up for the second time!!!
As for " I am on a trip from YEG to YYC" NO you should not get violated for using trip because its in the wrong place. BUT I was always told to describe such a thing as a "Hop" probably so as not to use the MAGIC INTERCEPT WORD
People chill out we dont know everything all the time even if we like to think so
Using "trip" at the end of a call sign to indicate a Hijack issue has been out there for a long time. Probably so long that instructors at certain levels have never heard of it ,so you dont get told it ,and never pass it on.
and soon its not general knowledge any more. BIG DEAL NOW YOU KNOW Taxing in with your flaps down onto the stand is another one that was a visual signal thats been around for ever. I have been there a few times but as yet a swat team has not jumped onto the plane and nobody gets violated. Just nasty look at the copilot to tell him to bring the flaps up for the second time!!!
As for " I am on a trip from YEG to YYC" NO you should not get violated for using trip because its in the wrong place. BUT I was always told to describe such a thing as a "Hop" probably so as not to use the MAGIC INTERCEPT WORD
People chill out we dont know everything all the time even if we like to think so
Capt S&J using O instead of 0 isn't gong to alert SWAT teams or scramble fighters now is it. Using that magic little word in you ident might. Bede never said what he was flying so I think that would have to be a consideration of ATC and NORAD as to what action they take. I'm not an expert on this but there are probably many other factors they consider before doing so like size of airplane, distance to important areas of interest etc. He stumbled upon something and got a stern warning - move on.
If they had gone full tilt on the response because the circumstances warranted it and it turned out that they thought the pilot should have reasonably known better, then yes BIG fines would likely be in order. As always, they would have their day in court to defend themselves.
FWIW I don't think ATC or Nav employees can actually violate anyone anymore. I think they can only report it to TC who then issues the violation if they deem it appropriate. Anyone know about that one for certain?
And Captain S&J by all means challenge whatever you think is inappropriate - properly. But whoever said "tell them to fu#k off" is flirting with danger. It would then become a whole different issue and TC might make serious question of their ability to be a responsible license holder. I'd rather debate the original issue than defend my insolence.
If they had gone full tilt on the response because the circumstances warranted it and it turned out that they thought the pilot should have reasonably known better, then yes BIG fines would likely be in order. As always, they would have their day in court to defend themselves.
FWIW I don't think ATC or Nav employees can actually violate anyone anymore. I think they can only report it to TC who then issues the violation if they deem it appropriate. Anyone know about that one for certain?
And Captain S&J by all means challenge whatever you think is inappropriate - properly. But whoever said "tell them to fu#k off" is flirting with danger. It would then become a whole different issue and TC might make serious question of their ability to be a responsible license holder. I'd rather debate the original issue than defend my insolence.
If this is such an important term, how is it that almost 1/2 of us here apparently know nothing about it? Are we reading the wrong books? maybe I slept in that morning during a ground school.
If such a term exists, but cannot be found in any "rule book", I would have to question ATS's ability to violate us if we use it.
If such a term exists, but cannot be found in any "rule book", I would have to question ATS's ability to violate us if we use it.
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Cat Driver
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Thompsonav8.......
I guess there are 50% of us who just don't have the right stuff.
I shudder to think that ATC and the military would act without taking into consideration the use of such a common word the context in which the pilot used it, and the type of airplane and the flight being conducted.
As far as being violated, I very much doubt that that would happen.
Oh the shame I feel for not knowing about this.
Cat
I guess there are 50% of us who just don't have the right stuff.
I shudder to think that ATC and the military would act without taking into consideration the use of such a common word the context in which the pilot used it, and the type of airplane and the flight being conducted.
As far as being violated, I very much doubt that that would happen.
Oh the shame I feel for not knowing about this.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Bcn-In-Bnd
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I have done some looking into this and there is NO reason that anyone flying the small stuff should have any clue about this.
I am NOT going to get into details but A330 (and the rest of you high flyers (and ATC)) should have a look at your ops book(s) and learn how this word should really be used.
have a good-one folks I am done with this.
I am NOT going to get into details but A330 (and the rest of you high flyers (and ATC)) should have a look at your ops book(s) and learn how this word should really be used.
have a good-one folks I am done with this.
Why have you folks turned this thread into such a pissing match??
The issue was brought up, a few guys who are aware of the use of it have stated their opinions, which all pretty much seem to agree with each other on the use of it and the context that it would be used.
Can't you just take it as a learning experience, say "thanks, I wasn't aware of that", and carry on?
Comments like"I would have told him to F off" and the other not so nice replies don't really do much to further the discussion.
I don't think it matters whether you are the Cat Driver or Capt S&J or anybody else, you have now learned something new for today, it is a term that was used a long time ago and for a long time, might not be as appropriate in these days of our modern communication set ups that we have. But just the same I like to know that if I ever am in that position and can't openly communicate with ATC what is going on, I do have a back up that I can use, and they will know what I mean when I say that word.
The use of the word is probably, primarily used by international passenger carrying airlines, but not limited to them by any means, I don't fly for one of those, never have, probably never will. But I have known about it for 20 years or so.
Why don't you folks just accept it as your new learning experience for the day, for those that think that they don't need to learn anything more, please give up your licence now before you hurt somebody.
The issue was brought up, a few guys who are aware of the use of it have stated their opinions, which all pretty much seem to agree with each other on the use of it and the context that it would be used.
Can't you just take it as a learning experience, say "thanks, I wasn't aware of that", and carry on?
Comments like"I would have told him to F off" and the other not so nice replies don't really do much to further the discussion.
I don't think it matters whether you are the Cat Driver or Capt S&J or anybody else, you have now learned something new for today, it is a term that was used a long time ago and for a long time, might not be as appropriate in these days of our modern communication set ups that we have. But just the same I like to know that if I ever am in that position and can't openly communicate with ATC what is going on, I do have a back up that I can use, and they will know what I mean when I say that word.
The use of the word is probably, primarily used by international passenger carrying airlines, but not limited to them by any means, I don't fly for one of those, never have, probably never will. But I have known about it for 20 years or so.
Why don't you folks just accept it as your new learning experience for the day, for those that think that they don't need to learn anything more, please give up your licence now before you hurt somebody.
FamilyGuy
I asked a dozen people (including the CP) in my company this question. No one knew. We have people with 30+ years and over 20000 flying time and no one knew. So I had to find out if our whole company is out to lunch or if this ATC guy spend too many years watching action movies and memorizing code words (like Merry Christmas actually means their is a nuclear war).
Cheers
I asked a dozen people (including the CP) in my company this question. No one knew. We have people with 30+ years and over 20000 flying time and no one knew. So I had to find out if our whole company is out to lunch or if this ATC guy spend too many years watching action movies and memorizing code words (like Merry Christmas actually means their is a nuclear war).
Cheers
