For YYZ Jazz crews

[The Velvet Fog]

A question from YYZ ATC. Why are you guys not listening.? The number of missed calls, and wrong idents has risen to epidemic levels. I'm not just talking about climbs and descents, but missed calls to turn from base leg to final, missed calls for turns, and frequency changes. All the extra talking is causing delays to the operation and great frustration.

I know your flight numbering system is a problem for you as well, but taking someone else's call sign is a little more than dangerous.

Also, is there any reason why the RJ900's take so long to turn? It's common for a flight be given BIGBE at 3600 feet to maintain 7000, yet there is no sign of a turn until 5000 of higher. Considering that the sooner you turn the easier the sequencing on the airway, this delay just creates a growing back up, and delays everyones climb. With icing season already upon us, delays in the climb are no good for anyone.

It's not fair to tar you all with the same brush, and the issue relates mostly to the jet crews, but if the YYZ operation is going to be any good at all, we need your help. If there's something we can do to help, tell us. We've been complaining about your flight numbers for several years and you've seen what that has accomplished.

Regards,

Mel

P.S. If landing Hamilton, expect to be sent to MUXIG no matter what the landing runway.

[yycflyguy]

With so much hiring at both Jazz and Air Canada there has been a large influx of pilots unfamiliar with both local gateways, procedures and dealing with flight numbers. I totally sympathize that repeating instructions may pose a potential hazard but any chance of hearing a little less attitude from controllers when things don't click 100%? I hear much more latitude given to non-anglo carriers (Aeroflot, Luftansa, Mexicana etc.) than to home base operators.
Obviously none of us want to intentionally miss a call, take a wrong flight number or be slow to react to a clearance but we also do a pretty good job of accomadating ATC requests to slow, then speed up, only to slow again with a vector for spacing.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Mel,
Here's one I've always wondered about....How come it is so hard for the corporate guys that are going to the north end to get RWY 23 or 05 for landing? We always seem to end up having a 10 minute taxi from the south end...
Just wondering if you know the reason...

Thanks,
John

[twinpratts]

Two words...
CONTINUOUS DUTY .

[Treetopflyer]

amen to that!

[zzjayca]

but we also do a pretty good job of accomadating ATC requests to slow, then speed up, only to slow again with a vector for spacing.

ATC requests?? Last time I checked, vectors, speed control, etc.. were ATC INSTRUCTIONS. Hence the action words "maintain" 200 kts, and "fly heading/turn left/right heading" 360.

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the CARS regarding ATC instructions. They must be followed unless flight safety will be compromised. They sure as hell aren't optional and you aren't accommodating ATC when you follow them. You are doing your job.

Now back to the thread, I have also noticed many more missed calls from Jazz, Air Canada, and West Jet. The Canadian based carriers have historically been better than US based carriers but lately the gap has been closing. I only hope it gets better once the new crews become more accustomed to their new jobs.

[The Velvet Fog]

YYC

What does "turn left heading 120 and descend to 6000" have to do with gateways, and procedures? Listening is still listening. If you don't know what to expect, shouldn't you be listening more?

As for attitude, perhaps it's because when you're filling a 7 mile hole, and the a/c going in the middle takes 3 miles to turn causing two a/c on final to be co-located, we get pissed off. It's a lot of work to fix, and for the trailing guy, the glidepath is a just a memory. This isn't Regina. Despite the perception that there's nothing going on at YYZ, every mistake in the operation will impact someone else...from getting on and off the runway slowly, to cheating on speeds to being lazy on turns. My complaints relate more to terminal, but it's still a problem in the enroute.

As for foreign carriers, it's this obvious. 1. English is not their native language. 2. They may not have been here for 3 years. It's common sense. How often do Jazz crews not come through YYZ in a month?

Continuous duty is not an excuse at 10 o'clock in the morning. How alert are you going into EWR or ORD?

2low. Nice Avtar. Dullard

MURRAY, give them a chance

Regards,

Mel

[yycflyguy]

My point was lost. I was simply trying to point out that more often than not ATC changes their own plan for arriving aircraft. Multiple runway changes, instructions to speed up only to slow 5 miles later and then speed up again to me shows poor planning from ATC... could be because of an operational issue with an aircraft downstream that we don't hear on frequency but it happens frequently.

My comment about attitude was directed towards ground controllers who give complex instructions as fast as they can to home operators but will give the courtesy of a normal clearance to foreign carriers. I dont hear ORD, EWR, LGA or LAX controllers feel the need to be as fast.

Another question. Why can't runway assignment be given by the first YYZ controller when coming back from the NE US? Many times the landing runway has not been what has been advertised on ATIS with no changes in met conditions.

It is a two way street.

[Hyster]

Velvet Frog, why not instead of posting on this site do something more constructive and talk to jazz flight ops. If its a big a problem as you say they will put out a memo to the pilots...unless your just trying to stir the pot... in that case @#$! off....

[Gurundu the Rat]

here's a classic.

YYZ:

ATC: Taxi Tango cross 33R short Alpha Lima.
We do it and call Apron short of AL
Apron: Did ground switch you over?

What's going on up there? Do they put lawyers in the tower now?

YUL example:

ATC: Exit B2 cross 28 and call Apron on the other side
Seems a lot simpler to me. Then again I probably don't have the big picture.

[The Velvet Fog]

No pot stirring which is why it's in this section. Flight ops has been spoken too. Next time it will likely be Transport because it's getting ridiculous.

Runway assignment has been beaten to death but why can't you be told a runway assignment while checking in over LINNG? Then there won't be any changes, and you still have 50 miles of flying left unless we're on the 33's and then you should know in advance. The ATIS is an advisory only. We flip flop a lot more between 24L/R, 06L/R and the ATIS is at least 10 minutes behind. Runway changes to chase the wind happen a lot as well, so it might as well be in the back of your mind when ever the winds are splitting the parallels. With snow coming, expect even more changes as the GTAA gives very little notice about whent he plows are coming out. Multiple runway changes will happen a lot less if you aren't planning a runway when 200 miles away. Things are dynamic.

I can't speak for ground, but I know out taxiway situation is retarded.Call it a work in progress.

Regards,

Mel

[North of You]

The Velvet Fog
"I can't speak for ground, but I know out taxiway situation is retarded.Call it a work in progress. "

Same thing with the flight crews in the air srewing up, call that a work in progress also.

[JZA]

Compared to many other ATCs across the country, I feel YYZ leaves alot to be desired.

The late runway assignment is definately one of my biggest concerns.

[zzjayca]

Velvet Frog, why not instead of posting on this site do something more constructive and talk to jazz flight ops. ...

Because Jazz flight ops are incompetent when it comes to dealing with concerns from ATS. We have been trying to get them to change your flight numbers for years!

Both West Jet and Air Canada flight ops have no problem addressing our concerns so it definitely is a Jazz problem.

[Tiny Voices]

With all due respect, 50 miles really isn't alot of space.It isn't as simple as grabbing the appropriate plate.All this FMS stuff that makes life simple under ideal conditions becomes a hassle when we have an unplanned rwy change.In our aircraft at least, you have to reselect the STAR, the APP,then verify all the waypoints and altitudes again, and rebrief everything.In the mean time, we have travelled some 20 or so miles.Our descent profile maybe altered by the rwy change as well.Not so bad if it has you're undershooting but,could have you scrambling to get down if you all of a sudden find yourself on the high side.Can be awkward for some of the not so seasoned travellers who have paid for our service if we have to reach into our bag of tricks to get down.

Now, having said that, perhaps what's lacking is an appreciation of difficulties and trials of one anothers jobs.Just my opinion but, i think it would be great if we could invite you controller types into the sim show you what we have to do when getting a speed and or altitude restrictions,rwy changes, etc.In turn maybe we could visit one of your training facilities or sit beside one of your terminal people and see why you need to do what you do and what happens if we don't respond in a timely manner.Kind of a way to promote a better understanding of our respective responsabilities.

[Jeremy Kent]

Out of curiosity (to the ATC types), why are 24L and R (and the flip sides) so seldom used together? i.e. one for arrivals and one departures? Do they not meet some minimum distance, or something? What are the criteria for using them?

[The Velvet Fog]

Tiny:

If 50 miles isn't enough, why is it that every(since I've never been turned down) Air Canada/Jazz flt from the USA coming over YWT has accepted the offer of a change from 05 to 06L/R? It's only 25 miles. If changing the STAR is too much, ask for vectors...50/50 you're going to get them anyway if it's a change to a different end, so re-doing the STAR is probably a waste of time. If you're high, a longer downwind is always available. If that's still not accpetable, I defer to MURRAY's post above, but plan tohold..a lot. As for the cockpit/ sim, we are still in debate with Transport whose Minister still has his head in the sand. You're always welcome for a visit in this building.

Jeremy:

As of late they're getting much more use. It comes down to demand and staff. We're still tweaking to get ideal times to usde them.

Regards,

Mel

P.S. Hyster If I was just stirring shit, I'd have have joined idiot Rocky's post about Westjet

[Tiny Voices]

I didn't say 50 miles wasn't enough.I said it's not alot of space.It's upping the work load at an already fairly high demand time.If i'm feeling rushed or feel the need for a few extra minutes to get situated believe me, i will ask for a vector.Like i said, maybe a lack of appriciation for each others responsabilties.I don't understand how when everyplace else says a primary and secondary runway in there ATIS, you can plan on that being the case, or Vancouver centre can tell you which runway to plan for on your initial contact with them, but i may have to reload the APP 3 times in the last 120 miles going in to YYZ.Not saying you guys and gals are doing a lousy job in the least.Just saying i don't understand the operational requirements that neccesitate a runway change, which is my short coming, not yours.

Anyhow...thanks for the offer to sit in.How many Tims do i need to bring?

[Bede]

While we have ATC guys here,

How come LGA, DFW, ATL can move twice the traffic YYZ can. Nothing against you guys, but is it more conservative controlling up here?

Couple more questions: when you go from 2 runways (23/24R) to 2 runways (33L/R) everything slows down, why?

WHy do the procedure seem to change every time I go flying. One day I'm number two cleared to land, the next day not, one day I get takeoff clearance once the plane ahead rotates, the next day I get held up?

[spaz]

To add to the questions, why give a SID if we're just going to get a heading anyway? It's obviously not in case of a comm failure, because 90% of the time we get the heading before we depart. If we had a comm failure before that time, we wouldn't get off the ground. It's a real waste of time to read/read back/look up/brief/set instruments for a SID, and then just turn right to 290' anyway.

In the states often they don't bother. We just get an altitude with the clearance and tower gives us a heading or tells us to stay runway heading. Works great, less work.

Just askn'.

M.

[JZA]

[quote="MURRAY"]Bede:

YYZ (2005): 409,401 movements. LGA (2005) 404,853. Not really "twice the traffic".

LGA has two intersecting runways.

Toronto has 5 runways.

So Yes...LGA is more efficient than YYZ in terms of being able to move such a high volume of traffic given its facilities.

[yycflyguy]

... not to mention that in the NYC area you have EWR, JFK, LGA and TEB all within about 25 miles of each other. I would say area control handles more than double YYZ. I also dont recall being told "number 28 for departure" in YYZ like these other places.

[QFE]

Having been in and out of most of the major airports in North America and Europe over the past many years I find YYZ contol to be among the best of the best. Europe is very conjested while in the States they just talk too much. Last time into DCA we were given an arrival 7 miles from the fix- we were at 290 kts. The worst part of U.S. contollers is the "do you see the field-cleared the visual behind the...even when you don"t ask for it. I remember my FMS training when the instructor said when you get a runway change and you can programme it in under 10 seconds then we know that you understand the FMS. If YYZ is my biggest problem then life is good. Keep it up Murray & VF-your doing a great job.

[Glen Quagmire]

The Jazz call signs are pretty bad. For example we have simultaneous departures, 7735 launching off LGA for YOW and 7745 off EWR for YUL. Truly busy airspace with poor flight numbers.

As far as the CRJ9 taking 1000 feet to turn, that might not be anyone’s fault. Climb rates can range from 3000-4000 fpm in that machine, so 1000 feet comes up in 15 seconds, which is about the time it takes to read a clearance back, then select the heading and wait for the bird to start a slow turn. The problem I find with some guys is when we get direct somewhere, then they go right to the FMS, punch in direct, ask the other guy for confirmation of the route change, execute the change, select nav mode and away we go. That can take 30 seconds or more and now you have blown through 2-3000 feet.

YYZ ATC is alright for the most part, it’s always the same thing, predictable and inefficient. I realize though that many of the inefficiencies are a result of the system the controllers have to work in and not the controllers themselves. Although what was up the other day, weather was 500 feet and 3 miles, light winds with a two hour ground delay program in effect due weather. We were stuck in the states, controller down there was asking if it was contract time at NavCan, couldn’t believe it.

[The Velvet Fog]

Glen:

Inefficient how? Like landing 06L and coasting at 3 mph to the exit because it's near the gate? We do have big problems with noise, and the GTAA built the airport, so things will only get worse. Imagine Miller's plans for us after he gets done with the island. If he an Hazel get together, how much low cost housing can you get into Terminal 1?

Any specifc day for the delay, as we haven't run any ground delay programs in the last week. Are you sure the plane wasn't broken and the gate attendant just blamed it on ATC?

As for traffic numbers, they're irrelevant. There are about 7 hours in the morning where our demand is light. Schedule another 300 departures in there and you can have 650 000 movements from our maximum 3 runway opration. We just don't have the demand that the US airports do.

JZA:
I suspect you don't miss many transmissions in LGA either..or it's off to the penalty box. As for the efficiency, you better not dawdle on the roll as we've have good the near miss at the interesection is. Getting on and off the runways at YYZ regularily has granny's wondering what the delay is.

SPAZ.
SID question is a good one. I suspect it's entirely about a com failure, as an unexpected turn on course before we can get people our of your way would lead to a TCAS classic. Overprotective ..probably, but lawyers are in charge of the world...for now