Considering that no one here has a clue as to even what an accelerated spin is - YES.its crazy to do spin training without parachutes and an aerobatic instructor on board
safest airplane to train spins on?
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bob sacamano
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OK then. What is an accelerated spin? Lots here would like to know, I'm sure. I thought it's when you spin the thing, then put in aileron in the spinning direction.Hedley wrote:Considering that no one here has a clue as to even what an accelerated spin is - YES.its crazy to do spin training without parachutes and an aerobatic instructor on board
I have only heard about accelerated spins from one source, and the source could be wrong.
Thanks Hedley.
(Spin a Cessna. I'm on topic.)
-istp
Could it possibly be a spin in which your rate of spinage is increased? Usually by means of, idon't know, control inputs.........-
mellow_pilot
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Failing to utilitize safety equipment which is available to you, when you are dealing with a complex and dangerous situation that you do not fully comprehend, can be described at best as foolhardy, and at worst as suicidal.
Every year, people continue to die as a result of unrecovered spins. No less than Sean "pull the D ring" Tucker has parachuted out of an aircraft that was in a spin that he could not recover from. I suppose all you "hot sticks" here think you know more about spins than Sean Tucker
Go ahead, pass on the parachutes, and kill yourselves, you foolish, ignorant, impudent children. The world is vastly overpopulated anyways. I do feel a bit sorry for the airframes, but oh well.
Every year, people continue to die as a result of unrecovered spins. No less than Sean "pull the D ring" Tucker has parachuted out of an aircraft that was in a spin that he could not recover from. I suppose all you "hot sticks" here think you know more about spins than Sean Tucker
Go ahead, pass on the parachutes, and kill yourselves, you foolish, ignorant, impudent children. The world is vastly overpopulated anyways. I do feel a bit sorry for the airframes, but oh well.
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mellow_pilot
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Hedley, are you seriously saying that you need a parachute to spin a 172?
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
I want to preface this by saying that I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm asking why spins in a light trainer are so dangerous? You keep making vague references and then calling everyone names. I just want to know your reasoning.
If you're serious, should we always fly with parachutes? A stall with a control failure could be just as deadly. I don't see how spins are particularly violent, or anymore likely to reuslt in catastrophic component failure than any other airwork, such as steep turns or spirals.
As I understand it, most stall-spin fatalities happen from an altitude where the spin is unrecoverable. This usually happens on approach/departure, not during spin training or upper airwork iirc. I don't see how wearing a parachute will help you if you start spinning in from 1000 ft.
Sean Tucker flies aerobat no? Is his aircraft not stressed more often and to a greater extreme? I realise that it's built a little tougher, but still, it sees far more abuse. Is it not more likely that cumulative fatigue damage would result in such an airplane?
The chances of accelerating a 172 to an unrecoverable condition seem remote to me. Am I not thinking of this in the right way? If you start a spin at say, 4000 feet, then accelerate it, then can't recover, try again, then realise that something is completely f-ed up, then decide to exit the airplane... are you going to have time to get out and open a chute? Especially considering that most light trainers (I'm thinking of a piper-style door here) aren't that easy to get in and out of in a hurry.
Would a BRS not be more appropriate?
Sault College had an airplane spin into the ground many many moons ago. The guy was obviously lucky, but he suffered only a broken ankle (so the story goes). Granted the Zlin is built like a T-72, and granted there were a lot of factors in the fellas favour, but he still "walked away" from a spin from 5000 or so (as the story goes) into the ground.
Again, I'm not trying to be an ass, I really do want to know why you think this is so dangerous for Canada's light training fleet.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
I want to preface this by saying that I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'm asking why spins in a light trainer are so dangerous? You keep making vague references and then calling everyone names. I just want to know your reasoning.
If you're serious, should we always fly with parachutes? A stall with a control failure could be just as deadly. I don't see how spins are particularly violent, or anymore likely to reuslt in catastrophic component failure than any other airwork, such as steep turns or spirals.
As I understand it, most stall-spin fatalities happen from an altitude where the spin is unrecoverable. This usually happens on approach/departure, not during spin training or upper airwork iirc. I don't see how wearing a parachute will help you if you start spinning in from 1000 ft.
Sean Tucker flies aerobat no? Is his aircraft not stressed more often and to a greater extreme? I realise that it's built a little tougher, but still, it sees far more abuse. Is it not more likely that cumulative fatigue damage would result in such an airplane?
The chances of accelerating a 172 to an unrecoverable condition seem remote to me. Am I not thinking of this in the right way? If you start a spin at say, 4000 feet, then accelerate it, then can't recover, try again, then realise that something is completely f-ed up, then decide to exit the airplane... are you going to have time to get out and open a chute? Especially considering that most light trainers (I'm thinking of a piper-style door here) aren't that easy to get in and out of in a hurry.
Would a BRS not be more appropriate?
Sault College had an airplane spin into the ground many many moons ago. The guy was obviously lucky, but he suffered only a broken ankle (so the story goes). Granted the Zlin is built like a T-72, and granted there were a lot of factors in the fellas favour, but he still "walked away" from a spin from 5000 or so (as the story goes) into the ground.
Again, I'm not trying to be an ass, I really do want to know why you think this is so dangerous for Canada's light training fleet.
Dyslexics of the world... UNTIE!
If you think nothing can go wrong in a spin in a Cessna (your example), click on:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8q0114.asp
I'll bet that now-deceased flight instructor, if he had to do it over again, would wear a parachute during spin training.
Some more reading:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 0378&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1761&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1994&key=1
The list goes on, and on. Feel free to add your name to it.
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8q0114.asp
I'll bet that now-deceased flight instructor, if he had to do it over again, would wear a parachute during spin training.
Some more reading:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 0378&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1761&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1994&key=1
The list goes on, and on. Feel free to add your name to it.
I know you can spin both the cherokee 140 and the 152/172 but if you had your choice which one of the two is safer of the two for a student to spin without getting into alot of trouble.
I have heard worse stories about the cherokee than the 172 as the 172 comes out of it by itself and the cherokee you have to work for it.
Ideas?
I have heard worse stories about the cherokee than the 172 as the 172 comes out of it by itself and the cherokee you have to work for it.
Ideas?
As discussed previously, the 172 hates to spin, the 150/152 spins quite enthusiastically, and recovers most of the time.
The Cherokee 140 is not spun as often, for a number of reasons, but if I am sure that if you read what Piper says on the subject, and follow their instructions, it should work just fine for you. It's an airplane.
The Cherokee 140 is not spun as often, for a number of reasons, but if I am sure that if you read what Piper says on the subject, and follow their instructions, it should work just fine for you. It's an airplane.
All very interesting reading. Thank you.Hedley wrote:If you think nothing can go wrong in a spin in a Cessna (your example), click on:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8q0114.asp
I'll bet that now-deceased flight instructor, if he had to do it over again, would wear a parachute during spin training.
Some more reading:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 0378&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1761&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_i ... 1994&key=1
The list goes on, and on. Feel free to add your name to it.
A couple of thoughts without trying to restart old arguments. In the 152 accident, why would you not set 4000 as your recovery altitude if the POH says you should. CARs also say this. I realise it would not help this poor guy, but since the 152 is so eager to spin it would seem prudent to me to do this maneouver higher up.
re: parachite requirements given in the second incident. (60degrees bank, 30 pitch) This looks like an American report to me. Is there a similar CAR on this? If this is so, it really is at odds with what most (all?) flight schools handle spins. CPL students are required to perform them. I know we have no parachutes here.
re: the instructor all to eager to have his students spin. I have seen this in a couple of guys and it always alarms me. Some Instructors I have known eagerly put there students into a full spin far too early in training simply "because they are fun". I fear that they are not treating this maneouver with the respect it deserves.
Again, thanks.
Wahunga!
If you want to wear a paracute while doing pre-solo spin training in a certified training a\c go ahead and fill your boots. There's really no need for it given that part of the certification process for light training a\c is a demonstration that they will recover from a spin hands off (ie, you let go of the controls and scream "oh god we're gonna die!" and the a\c unspins itself <-try it in a 172 sometime).
Lets be real here, even if the a\c did go unrecoverable, how many people do you think would be able to unbuckle themselves, open the door (non ejectable doors here) and then get themselves out?
Lets be real here, even if the a\c did go unrecoverable, how many people do you think would be able to unbuckle themselves, open the door (non ejectable doors here) and then get themselves out?
Lots of people have done it. I can't believe people are arguing that they don't want to have an "out" when they are dealing with something that they know little or nothing about, and that can kill them. Darwin, anyone?how many people do you think would be able to .. get out?
For some reason I am reminded of the obstinate British generals who refused to equip their pilots in WWI with parachutes, because they wanted to encourage their pilots to stay with a (eg burning) aircraft.
Hey, I have a great idea, mcrit. Put your money where your mouth is. Why don't you phone up the family of the dead instructor and tell them that you don't think that parachutes during spin training are a good idea?
Get back to us on that, ok?
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How much do parachutes cost?
Even though it's a minor hijack, it's still a good point.
Sure, it's nice to have all the outs possible. I suppose the reason why most people don't use parachutes during spin training is a "risk to $$$" ratio.
The chances of an unrecoverable spin are very minute with proper training, weight and balance, preflight inspection, etc. , so the cost of a parachute is viewed as not worth it.
But c'mon Hedley, are you telling me you wouldn't spin a 172 without a parachute strapped on? You've worn a parachute every time you've done a spin?
If so, then you're one safe pilot, and that's great!
If not, then I'll bet you made the decision to not wear a parachute, because you thought the risk was low- too low to warrant spending a bunch of dough on a parachute.
In any case, fly safe folks!
-istp
Even though it's a minor hijack, it's still a good point.
Sure, it's nice to have all the outs possible. I suppose the reason why most people don't use parachutes during spin training is a "risk to $$$" ratio.
The chances of an unrecoverable spin are very minute with proper training, weight and balance, preflight inspection, etc. , so the cost of a parachute is viewed as not worth it.
But c'mon Hedley, are you telling me you wouldn't spin a 172 without a parachute strapped on? You've worn a parachute every time you've done a spin?
If so, then you're one safe pilot, and that's great!
If not, then I'll bet you made the decision to not wear a parachute, because you thought the risk was low- too low to warrant spending a bunch of dough on a parachute.
In any case, fly safe folks!
-istp
I think we're coming full circle in this discussion.
When someone I know wants to do some upright or inverted spins (or other aerobatic maneuver), I say, "Great, let's strap on the chutes" and off we go in a purpose-built, certified aerobatic aircraft.
There happen to be seven 2-seat aerobatic aircraft at our airport, so this seems to me like a logical choice.
We do not do aerobatics in our Cessna 421, for example.
I happen to know that a 172 will do spins, rolls, loops and hammerheads - I've seen them all done. But is it a smart thing for most pilots to do so? No.
I frequently enter and recover from inverted spins below 1,000 feet, and am quite happy to do so. I really doubt anyone else here can make that claim. So, perhaps I know a little bit about spins. I also know that it would be foolish for me to leave a parachute sitting on the bench, when I know that I'm going up to do some aerobatics.
But perhaps I don't know as much about spins as current (and future) Transport Inspectors.
When someone I know wants to do some upright or inverted spins (or other aerobatic maneuver), I say, "Great, let's strap on the chutes" and off we go in a purpose-built, certified aerobatic aircraft.
There happen to be seven 2-seat aerobatic aircraft at our airport, so this seems to me like a logical choice.
We do not do aerobatics in our Cessna 421, for example.
I happen to know that a 172 will do spins, rolls, loops and hammerheads - I've seen them all done. But is it a smart thing for most pilots to do so? No.
I frequently enter and recover from inverted spins below 1,000 feet, and am quite happy to do so. I really doubt anyone else here can make that claim. So, perhaps I know a little bit about spins. I also know that it would be foolish for me to leave a parachute sitting on the bench, when I know that I'm going up to do some aerobatics.
But perhaps I don't know as much about spins as current (and future) Transport Inspectors.
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fougapilot
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Yes and no. You need to be trained to do skydiving, but only need to know how to open the chute if you will use one as an emergency escape system. This being said, knowing the "system" in this case the parachute does come handy once in a while.niss wrote:Also there is the topic of parachute training is there not? Do you not have to be certified to operate a parachute?
I for one wear one everytime I fly acro / formation or formation acro in my Yak. Come to think of it, I can remember the last time I flew the Yak without my chute on.
I agree, they are not cheap. $1200usd for the chute and $1800usd for the helmet. Still in my book, a small price for added safety.
F
Sigh. No.Do you not have to be certified to operate a parachute?
There is no CAR that requires you to be "certified" to wear or operate an emergency parachute.
There is no CAR that requires you to wear an emergency parachute.
There is no CAR that even requires emergency parachutes to be maintained (eg repack).
When you receive dual aerobatic instruction, your aerobatic instructor will brief you on egress and operating procedures of the parachute you are wearing. There are many different makes and models and harness arrangements, but pretty well all will have a "D" ring about 3 inches across, which requires about a 20 pound pull to release a spring-loaded drogue chute, which will open the main chute. Bonus points for holding on the D ring until landing - great souvenir for the "I love me" wall.
You can steer most parachutes, by pulling the shrouds if nothing else. I might recommend avoiding power lines, and if you must land in the trees, cross your legs (unless you are a current or future Transport Inspector) and cover your face with your arms crossed.
Your assertion that a parachute is useless without an ejection seat is ridiculous:
http://www.softieparachutes.com/html_fi ... nials.html
P.S. How's that application into Transport coming? As soon as they figure out what you're like, you're a shoe-in for 4900 Yonge St
http://www.softieparachutes.com/html_fi ... nials.html
P.S. How's that application into Transport coming? As soon as they figure out what you're like, you're a shoe-in for 4900 Yonge St
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fougapilot
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Niss,
It depends on a lot of factors, but the main one is decent rate. If you decide to egress an airplane that is flying straight and level (due to a cabin fire for example) 500ft agl is sufficient for the parachute to do its job and save your life (note: no promises are made as to quality of said life after parachute ride, but chances are you will survive). The parachute will open rather quickly (250ft ish) but may not have time to stabilize before landing.
On the other hand, if you have a control isue and are in a near vertical attitude... then one would need a couple thousands feet for the complete egress procedure to work.
Personally, there are only 2 reasons I would evacuate my airplane in flight (and both are briefed to my pax). One is Fire. I refuse to burn to death sitting on a parachute. The second is loss of control (due to mechanical failure or collision). Every other scenario, I will fly the airplane to the scene of the crash.
Cheers,
F
It depends on a lot of factors, but the main one is decent rate. If you decide to egress an airplane that is flying straight and level (due to a cabin fire for example) 500ft agl is sufficient for the parachute to do its job and save your life (note: no promises are made as to quality of said life after parachute ride, but chances are you will survive). The parachute will open rather quickly (250ft ish) but may not have time to stabilize before landing.
On the other hand, if you have a control isue and are in a near vertical attitude... then one would need a couple thousands feet for the complete egress procedure to work.
Personally, there are only 2 reasons I would evacuate my airplane in flight (and both are briefed to my pax). One is Fire. I refuse to burn to death sitting on a parachute. The second is loss of control (due to mechanical failure or collision). Every other scenario, I will fly the airplane to the scene of the crash.
Cheers,
F
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Clodhopper
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The only thing with the Cherokee 140 is that it is very strict in terms of Weight and Balance when it comes to spinning it. Because of the shorter arm to the rudder and elevator, you have to have the C of G far enough forward to allow for efficient use of controls during recovery.
I spin them all the time, love it, the only thing is occasionally it tends to start flattening out if you hold it for too many rotations. (Not including the 'flattening' out when it hits the ground)
I spin them all the time, love it, the only thing is occasionally it tends to start flattening out if you hold it for too many rotations. (Not including the 'flattening' out when it hits the ground)
a.k.a. "Big Foot"
