Skill Level....recent IFR flight school grads vs. Ramp Rats.

heeypilot · Post by **heeypilot** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:52 am

Doc wrote: BTW, a guy with six months instructing can fly circles around a six month ramp rat!

did you mean: "a guy with six months instructing can watch another guy fly circles around a six month ramp rat!"

by the way, i'm not comparing ramp rats and guys who have 6 months of operational flying experience. and trust me , new guys aren't put in airlplanes because of their skills. like i said before they are there to LEARN.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:04 pm

If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.
If you are working the ramp and you are not actively being checked out, you are being screwed.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:05 pm

New guys are licensed by Transport Canada to fly aircraft. Are you saying they cant fly? They can only learn by loading etc? That's crap. Companies that hire pilots as cheap ramp staff, are getting just that. Cheap ramp staff.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:09 pm

I think we sometimes think of our jobs as a little more complex then they really are. Obviously anybody can fly an airplane given the proper training and almost anybody can fool a chief pilot during a 15 minute interview.
But does that mean I want to put tens of thousands of dollars into them and have them fly for me for the next couple years based on a 15 minute chit chat.
I would rather see that they have a good attitude and the ability to get along with the other employees. I can also tell pretty quick whether a guy will be a good fit in the airplane based on how he treats other company equipment and how he works with others. I can't however tell after a 15 minute interview and by reading a 3 page resume telling me about his paper route and his job at "The Dollar Store"
Also in many cases we want to see if they are going to get homesick and run home to mommy after a couple of weeks in a small town.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:19 pm

Philly...come on...there's a bloody big dif between a fifteen minute chat and two years of slavery! Is putting a guy in a 185 for a couple of days going to break you? Or a couple of "dead legs" on your twin as an evaluation? NO OTHER INDUSTRY DOES THIS! Are you saying, that aviation is the ONLY industry that has to PAY to train new staff? And the remark about being "homesick and running home to mommy" is just horse shit! That could happen in any industry. If you need a pilot, hire one. If you need a forklift driver, hire one.

Hoov · Post by **Hoov** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:24 pm

Alright fine DOC lets just get rid of pilots working the ramp waiting their turn to fly. What should they do while they arent flying? Work at McDonalds, Tim Hortons, Starbucks. When you work the ramp at least you know you have flying job somewhere in the future. All you do is hope that people leave the company so you can take their place.

Again I ask why you are asking this question it isnt gonna prove a god damn thing, and its gonna give new comers looking for their first job mixed thoughts. The ramp has nothing to do with work ethic and all that bullshit it is simply supply and demand.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:39 pm

Well Hoov, my point is pretty simple. You don't see any other "professionals" in other industries "waiting their turn" to do whatever...do you? I don't.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:50 pm

What kind of pilots are turned out when schools advertise "Guaranteed license for $XXK (around 40-60K)"?

Hoov · Post by **Hoov** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:02 pm

Okay Doc, what should people fresh out of school do? Are you saying they should refuse a job offering if it doesnt include flying right away? Again supply and demand.

Why do doctors go from med school to some sort of medical field, simply because we always need more doctors. Just like we need more carpenters, dentists, tim horton servers, and dentists. We dont need more pilots, right now there are more pilots then there are seats to fill. Right now you cant go straight from school to a flying job so you have to wait your turn, and you have to work the ramp. Of course it sucks, but again I ask what should people fresh out school do Doc?

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:24 pm

As long as high school dropouts and burnouts from other walks of life with a bit of money can buy a Commercial Pilot's License. Then entry level pilots will never be considered professionals.
The good news, I guess, is that recently we have been hiring people from around town who are not pilots to work the ramp and we've been hiring our qualified co-pilots with time and good aviation references, from the outside. Not sure how this will benefit the 200hr MIFR guys.
Actually over the last few years I have noticed that many operators will no longer hire 200 hr pilots on the dock or on the ramp. And I think this comes back to what Doc had said

"If you need a pilot, hire one. If you need a forklift driver, hire one"

So they are doing just that. They are getting non-pilots with carpentry skills and experience with small engines etc. to work as dockhands. Guys with warehouse and forklift experience to be cargo agents.
and pilots with 1000hrs+ to fly there Cessna 185's and right seat on there multi engine equipment.

The whole attitude where new pilots who work the ramp are treated as slaves and are being taken advantage of is B.S. They are being given a chance. A chance I remind you that we don't owe them, or care if they ever get.

Maybe I look at it this way because I did my time on the dock and think I became a better pilot because of it. I had the chance to swamp for a 25,000hr bush guy and learned a shitload more watching him then I would have being sent out in the 185 without a clue.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:41 pm

heeypilot wrote:working on the ramp is the company's way of sorting through all you whiney, mamas-boy types and pick who has the best ATTITUDE for the job.... trust me, you're not getting hired because of your pilot 'skills.'

If companies actually interviewed properly, this wouldn't be an issue. I'd say it's more a way to avoid having to do thorough and proper interviews, and a way to get cheap eager labour.

heeypilot wrote:so really, whether you're fresh out of school or you've been on the ramp for 2 years makes NO difference. i'd rather hire a humbled ramp rat whom at least has an idea of how a REAL airline is run, than a fresh aviation grad who shows up in his Ray Bans and thinks a 1900 is the space shuttle.

because such a high percentage of people do show up that way. (sarcasm). those few that do show up with attitudes like that are usually shown the door in quick order.

heeypilot wrote:ps. instructors don't fly planes either.

oookay then.....so who showed you your first stall, xwind landing, takeoff, steep turn, slow flight, spin, etc and all those other things that when you do them day in day out are excellent for hands and feet skills?

ps...while i do have an instructor rating, i don't instruct for a job.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:48 pm

people in other industries do have to wait their turn. Do you think every university grad gets a job in their field right away? Not likely. Many people are doing other(usually lower skilled) jobs that pay half decently while waiting for the phone call from a company that can offer them a future. And those companies that do hire them eventually put just as much money into their new hires as do airlines. Someone who starts into an entry level managment position will often get 2-4 weeks of training before actually assuming responsibility for their assigned duties. This can cost upwards of 10K. It sure is a lot less to train a 206 driver...what maybe $2000 for the 206? Tops.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:51 pm

Come on people this is really simple...... we have pilots on the ramp for one reason only! Too many pilots! Not because it makes you a better pilot or any other BS reason. Employers like rampies because they work hard to earn a seat and they are really cheap. And pilot who have worked the ramp will tell you it is good and makes you a better pilot because it is a lot easier to look at it that way then to admit their were used as cheap labour for 2 years.

Phillyfan,

What would the company you work for do if they no long could get a 1000hr +? What if they only option was a 250 hr pilot? Would they quit flying or hire the 250 hr guy? I'm guessing they would hire the 250 hr and get him/her flying. If that is the case then you have no grounds for your position.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:52 pm

Hoov...I don't think the guys working a ramp are the problem. The problem is the simple fact that companies use pilots in these positions in the first place. In other industries, where the need for the new grad is not immediate, the companies at least say...."no work for you at this time."......and not..."Come shovel shit for two years, and if a position opens up, maybe, if you have the right attitude, and have kissed the right ass, maybe, just maybe, the job could be your's."
In other industries, grads DO work at Micky D's. They DO work at Walmart. They DO wait tables. But when that first job happens, it happens in the line of work they were educated to do...and that's the bottom line!

wanderer · Post by **wanderer** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:04 pm

What if they would prefer to work on the ramp than at McDonalds?

"If I can't fly for you, I would prefer not to work on the ramp thankyou. Please contact me at McDonalds when a seat opens up."

or

"I'm sorry - I don't have any flying positions right now. I do need a ramp attendant however because you are a qualified pilot, I will not offer that to you. Good day, sir."

Would an operator command a great deal more respect in the industry if they refused to offer ramp positions to pilots?

There are more qualified pilots than flying jobs. Working the ramp seems to be win-win.

If an offer to work the ramp seems exploitive, then the would-be pilot should walk away from it. I can't imagine a would-be employer would be put off by it.

RobZombie · Post by **RobZombie** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:06 pm

Greetings folks, first time poster long time lurker

Jesus Doc,
When did you start in this industry??? Obviously not in the last 15 years!!
( I know your a longtimer)

You kinda remind me of my extended family at family gatherings. After putting in six years of turbo prop flying I always get the same questions from them.
Uncle to me: So when you gonna work for Aircanada?

Me to Uncle: Hoping they call soon

Uncle: guess you need more experience eh?

Me: No actually, I meet or exceed all their qualifications.

Uncle: So why arent you working there?

Me: Well, uncle just cause I am qualified to work there doesn't mean they can just create a job for me, I have to wait till they require more pilots.

Uncle: Oh.

So what I'm getting at here is that just cause a guy finishes school and has the mins to fly for a living isn't gonna gaurentee him/her a job, far more people have licences than there are jobs available.

And I'm sure you are aware of how fast things change in this buissness, operators are here today and gone tommorow. same for pilots, new jobs always pop up, some times when least expected. Suddenly the company's short and needs to train a guy or two, well shit theres two greenhorns working right here on my ramp, Ka-Bam these worthless rampies are now worthless pilots.

I only have ten years in this buissness but know enough to realize that TIMING IS EVERYTHING. If your on the ramp and ready to go you get the job not the guy who faxed his resume, and resides in the folks basement in some cozy local 500 miles away.

And as for the guy spending two years on the ramp thats his problem not the industrys. I also know when i worked the ramp everyother guy with me had resumes in at every other operator within a days drive.

And from an operators perspective i can see the point in Trying out the prospective pilots on the ramp, you can learn a lot from keeping an eye on what time a guy shows up for work, or how willing he is to come in on a day off. That stuff speaks volumes about the person and his work ethic.
And whats that old saying better to deal with the devil you know than the one you dont.

and as for the ramp guy getting stale, if you do two years on the ramp thats your problem. A guy onthe ramp with 250 hours vs the fresh grad with 250 hours, the rampie wins everytime, atleast you can leave the rampie to load the plane while you duck out for a smoke.

Just my honest opinion

ciao
RZ

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:57 pm

I don't know @#$! all about @#$! all, but RobZombie, thank you for coming out of the lurker world.

I appreciate it.

-istp

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:48 pm

heeypilot wrote:ps. instructors don't fly planes either.

You're a moron.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:23 am

Merlin

You asked me.

Phillyfan,

What would the company you work for do if they no long could get a 1000hr +? What if they only option was a 250 hr pilot? Would they quit flying or hire the 250 hr guy? I'm guessing they would hire the 250 hr and get him/her flying. If that is the case then you have no grounds for your position.

Well lucky for me that is not be a problem. If things do get tough I simply make a call to someone I have worked with before and ask them for the name of a good driver.

Now don't take this the wrong way but I have been in this business for a few years now and I can provide you with a long list of guys and gals who are hanging out in the left seat of big jets collecting 6 figures who I have personally given there first dock or ramp job too.

I will not change my opinion of how I believe things should be done because of a small number of people who think they are above paying there dues.

I really don't care if a 250 hr newbie who thinks I owe him a flying gig pitches a fit because it's unfair. He can hang out in his parents basement waiting for my phone call that will never come.

You guys and girls can take whatever advice you see fit. But my bet is that if you think you are above "doing what it takes". You will make that same walk that I have seen many a pilot make.
Ten years from now You will walk up that path into a flying school looking to rent a Cessna 172 so you can take your wife and kid from Carp to Smiths Falls for the Sunday Fly-In Breakfast while all the flying instructors point and laugh at you behind your back because you can't figure out the radio and your walk around takes so long.
Don't let the piss poor advice of others "who have a seat" Push you away from your dream job because of one year ramp commitment.

I'm gonna tell you newbies a secret. A secret that all the fly boys on Avcanada won't tell you. Flying for a living is a pretty cool gig and if it takes a year on the ramp, it's worth it. The other option could be alot worse. Sitting in you car at the end of the runway with a Mcdonalds meal deal watching airplanes take off and land wondering what could have been.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:08 am

You just keep pounding that sunshine there Philly!
As long as guys/gals are willing to work ramps/docks for shit wages, guys like Philly will be there ready and willing to hang that "carrot" out in front of you. And the circle will remain, unbroken.
And I really LIKE the fact, that Philly and I can take opposite sides on an issue like this, and sit at our keyboards and say so. It's one of the things that are really right with this country....freedom of opinion. And the right to have an opinion! We don't agree....and Philly WILL win this one, because, when all is said and done, that's the way things are going. I just happen to think it's wrong. And he thinks it's right. And that's kewl.

1coolav8r · Post by **1coolav8r** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:42 am

heeypilot wrote:working on the ramp is the company's way of sorting through all you whiney, mamas-boy types and pick who has the best ATTITUDE for the job.... trust me, you're not getting hired because of your pilot 'skills.'

you. know. nothing. you. are. nothing. you are there to LEARN.

so really, whether you're fresh out of school or you've been on the ramp for 2 years makes NO difference. i'd rather hire a humbled ramp rat whom at least has an idea of how a REAL airline is run, than a fresh aviation grad who shows up in his Ray Bans and thinks a 1900 is the space shuttle.

to those guys that say 'waaaaaaa my IFR skills are going away waaaaaa MOMMM!!!!' pick up a fucking book and study. trust me, renting a duchess for 2 hours will make absolutely no difference to the 10 hours you already have.

ps. instructors don't fly planes either.

I dont usually post, but I had to on this one. Man if I could shove my steel toe boots up your ass from here I'd do it right now. Thats all I need to say

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:22 pm

I personally don't think there is a difference between rampies, instructors, guys fresh out of college. It all comes down to the individual's work ethic, attitude and the way they think.

I have flown with guys that were on the ramp for a year, I found nothing wrong with them, they were keen, gun-ho, and had a good attitude, decision making skills, etc. They were green to start, but got better with experience. I have flown with rampies that were useless, they got on the flightline because they brownosed well and when they were flying they did not care, had a poor attitude and figured they could advance further by brown-nosing some more. I have flown with instructors that were great in every aspect, they were also green but they got better with time. I also flown with former instructors that were useless, I was surprised that they did not kill themselves while instructing. (Nasty but true, I kid you not)

Solution. do what the majors do. Hire someone to fly, and have a probation period. Where they can evaluate the new hire.

The whole ramp thing.....some companies do that, some don't. For some it works. That is just the way it is. How it got that way.....whon knows. Like Hoov said supply and demand. For those that don't want to work the ramp. Fine don't, no one is pointing a gun to your head. Just be prepared to spend more time looking for a job.

xsbank: Sorry dude but this whole going overseas thing might work for a laid off airline pilot who can get sponsored and paid to do a conversion on their license. For a 250 hr pilot is simply not realistic. If it was that quick and cheap to get a JAA license, an EU passport, a 737-400 type rating, and a job at British Airways. Everyone would be doing that instead of working the ramp, instructing, and flying Navajos for sh*t wages.

My 2 cents

gonfly'n · Post by **gonfly'n** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:34 pm

I'm working the ramp now, going to high school and working on my ppl. I enjoy my work for now. I'v had some shit jobs, so i do not have a problem with getting my hands dirty. I would not feel entitled to a right seat in anything, but i cant see working the ramp after dumping all that money into training.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:44 pm

Now, here's a guy who works a ramp......and that's a good thing! They can't hold the "carrot" in front of him. But, he gets a good look at what's ahead. And, he'll no better than to do it after he's spent 30-40K!

ski_bum · Post by **ski_bum** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:17 pm

Dark Helmet wrote:I personally don't think there is a difference between rampies, instructors, guys fresh out of college. It all comes down to the individual's work ethic, attitude and the way they think.

Dark Helmet, You hit the nail square on the head!!

Is a rampy who hasen't flown in a year going to fly as well as an instructor you flew a days ago or a college guy that finished up a couple months ago?? Probably not, hands and feet wise. If the rampy knows the numbers cold has studied his IFR procedures and SOP's, there is no reason that he or she won't do as well.

But it all boils down to attitude, I have always said, If I want it bad enough, I will work hard enough to get it. So far it has worked.