703...or... 704...or both... a managers dream

ramp_agent · Post by **ramp_agent** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:16 pm

don't give managers any ideas.

TR · Post by TR » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:19 pm

hmmm, what brought that on?

TR · Post by TR » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:58 pm

You must qualify for the flight (leg) you intend to do.

There are no provisions to extend a 704 duty day to 15 hours, unless you properly split your day, or have unforeseen circumstances. Under 703, if you have the ops spec, you may extend to 15 hours, if you don't fly over 8 hours, OR you extend your rest by an hour.

I can fly 704 all day up to 14 hours, but if I'm going to use my 703 ops spec to go to a 15 hour duty day, I better be doing a 703 flight after the 14th hour.

Juicy you have 703/704 mixed up in your post. There is a presentation on Tuesday for this exact thing. It is intended for the interest of flight followers, new hires, and other company people who have an interest in operational stuff. I didn't cater it to pilots who have been flying under Cars regulations for over ten years, but maybe I should!

RFN · Post by **RFN** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:19 am

My understanding is that if you intend to fly 704 during a duty day, even only for the first leg, then that whole day falls under 704 duty restrictions.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:27 am

simple, really.
ANytime you mix 703 and 704, especially with duty considerations, you have to go with the most restrictive.
You can flip an aircraft both ways on legs depending on 9 or less pax.
That's it.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:49 am

I was also under the impression that for example on a crew's last flight home the day runs into the 14th hour. All they have to do is limit the seats available to be occupied to 9 or less and they're good to go for one more hour before a whole bunch of paperwork has to be filed. The next day's rest has to be extended by that one hour as well.

It's a good way to get home when you're an hour away after the day went to hell but it's not something management should rely on or expect on a routine basis.

TR · Post by TR » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:04 am

When you extend to 15 hours, you do NOT need to extend your rest by an hour unless you fly more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period, CAR 720.16

Starsky · Post by **Starsky** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:12 am

Some guidance info from Transport on the subject....

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... tm#R740.15

Where operations are conducted under more than one CAR Subpart, pilots that fly both types of aircraft are limited to flying only the aircraft that has the less restrictive flight time limits once the more restrictive limit has been reached. Take as an example, a pilot flying both the SA226 (Subpart 4) and the PA31 (Subpart 3). Once 40 hours within 7 consecutive days (Subpart 4 limit) has been reached in either the SA226 or the PA31 or a combination of both, the remaining flight time (up to the maximum of 60 hours in 7 consecutive days, the Subpart 3 limit) must be completed in the PA31.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:51 am

So what about a metro in a passenger config of 9 or less. That meets the 703 rules doesn't it? I still believe that once you've maxed out your duty day as 704, you can fly the extra hour in the same plane as long as 9 or less seats are available to be occupied. Whether that means chucking the seats in the back or placarding them U/S, I don't know.
The extra hour of rest , as I understand it, applies to the next day if one is flying 704 again (after completing a 703 day).

Counciler · Post by **Counciler** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:02 pm

Additional guidance material .... this is one that will burn you!

Where the flight crew member conducts single-pilot IFR flights, the flight crew member's total flight time, in all flights conducted by the flight crew member, will not exceed 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours. In determining if this limitation applies to a given situation, this question must be asked - did the flight crew member conduct single-pilot IFR flights? Yes or no. If the answer is yes, the flight crewmember is limited to 8 hours of flight time in any 24 consecutive hours. The length of time spent conducting single-pilot IFR flights is irrelevant. If the pilot flew a departure under IFR and then cancelled IFR and flew the rest of the day under VFR - the answer is still yes and the 8-hour flight time limit applies.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:28 pm

No way dude. As soon as you fly a 704 airplane like a 1900D or a C with 10 pax you are 704 and you can't switch back to 703. You have to follow the more restrictive rules.

No more BS · Post by **No more BS** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:32 pm

Unless you have the ops spec in your Company Ops manual...

TR · Post by TR » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:37 pm

Not true co joe.

I can fly my metro 703 or 704 and switch back and forth hundred times a day. As long my OC says I can operate the aircraft as 703 or 704.

The key is that the aircraft must meet the definition of the flight I’m doing.

i.e. 703 by definition is:

a multi-engined aircraft, other than a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane, that has a MCTOW of 8 618 kg (19,000 pounds) or less and a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less;

All my freighters, medevacs, and metros with a seating configuration of 9 or less met this definition. So I will follow the 703 regulations. As soon as I set up my 10th seat I must operate 704, and met all the 704 requirements.

I don't see why everyone is so confused with this. When you drive a car you don't follow the rules of playing chess, you follow the rules applicable to what you are doing.

No more BS · Post by **No more BS** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:56 pm

TR: did yo mean that we don't need the extra 1 hr rest because of the ops spec?

Otherwise, according to CAR720.16, I still don't see that you DON'T need the extra 1hr rest.

In other words, unless I am reading wrong, it says that you do.

Also, again according to CAR720.16, if you want to extend to 15hrs, you CAN'T fly more than 8hrs in your day.

In other words, 8hours or more F/T in your day, you are limited to 14hrs.
Less than 8hrs F/T, then you can go to 15hrs duty AND you have to adjust rest by an extra 1 hour.

Here it is:
the maximum flight duty time may be extended to 15 consecutive hours if:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(a) the minimum rest period is increased by 1 hour; or

(b) the maximum flight time does not exceed 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.

TR · Post by TR » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:02 pm

By far the biggest word in that regulation is the word "OR", and the end of the a) sentence. You have to complete one OR the other, not both. If you fly over 8 hours, then you must take the extra of rest. If you don't fly over 8 hours (in 24 hours) then you don't need to do anything, as far as extra rest goes.

No more BS · Post by **No more BS** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:05 pm

Roger.

Got it. (I never realized that there was a OR)

Thanks.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:48 pm

The original question is still not being answered!

Can you start your day as 704 and then switch to 703 to fly through the 14th hour? Limiting 9 pax of course. I say yes, you can.

TR · Post by TR » Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:11 pm

I agree.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:38 pm

ei ei owe wrote:The original question is still not being answered!

Can you start your day as 704 and then switch to 703 to fly through the 14th hour? Limiting 9 pax of course. I say yes, you can.

No way man. If you are flying 704 then you are stuck meeting 704 rules until such time as you have enough rest time to reset. Then you can go back to the less stringent 703 rules. If you are switching back and forth as your employer wants you are being had, and you are breaking the law as far as I am aware.

Sweet and juicy if you are getting screwed around by your employer on this I'd take it up with TC for sure. You can't fly a 10 pax flight one leg and go by 14 hours max, and 3 off in 17, then later switch to 9 pax and say you're good to 30 on 3 off for 15 hours a day. That's BS. If you fly with 10 pax, you are limited by 704 rules until you get 3 days off as far as month totals go and rest time as applicable for daily numbers.

So if you have 10 pax today and tomorrow you have 9, then tomorrow you can apply the max 14 extendable to 15...17 hour split...etc. as long as you don't go over your monthly allowances.Make sense?

Ranger · Post by **Ranger** » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:14 pm

This is a grey area in a lot of ways for sure!! If a guy flies 2 weeks of medevacs, then wants to work some OT doing 704 skeds he can't without having 3 off first?? Looks that way to me.... Also, I agree that no where in the CARS does it say you CAN'T fly 14 hours of 704 and do your 15th hour as 703. But doing that seems like BS to me. If we assume the CARS are written with safety as top priority, is it more safe to go to your 15th hour with 9 people on board the metro instead of 10? I'm sure TC will have no clear answer to this as it isn't written explicitly and is open to interpretation....ask 3 people and get 3 answers. The right thing for a company to do would be to err on the side of safety and on a day when a crew is flying 703 AND 704 limit the day to 14 hours regardless of what is being flown in the 15th hour.......but we all know what happens when there's a trip needing to get done!!

Ruffo · Post by **Ruffo** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:15 am

This particular thing came up a few years ago at Skyward...they used to do it on sched. Transport found out about it, their impression at the time being that once you've been 704 you have to finish the day as 704...then again, they often come up with different interpretations as well depending on who you talk to and when, so...probably just grey.

CD · Post by CD » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:21 am

CBA Policy Letter 141 - Operation of the same aircraft under multiple Part VII subparts of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) by operators who hold Air Operator Certificates (AOCs)

TR · Post by TR » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:54 pm

Goes to show that you should never question the knowledge (or the authority) of management.

They are very smart people.

LastSamurai · Post by **LastSamurai** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:58 pm

We talked like old buddies me and the transport guy..we laughed we cried, I narced 47 pilots for right bases, sunglasses violations, Gerber/ Leatherman misconduct and one guy for saying "roger" too much and general crimes against aviation and he said he would get on the shit asap and then he said "hey, arent you ...."...then I hung up

ROTFLMAO!!!

This little rant is by far the funniest thing I have ever read on these threads...nice work and thanks for the laughs CSJ

LS

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:54 am

Ah yes... the fine print...

from: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... y/menu.htm which is the home page for said policy letter:

These Policy Letters have been prepared as staff instructions for Transport Canada Inspectors. The issues dealt with in these Policy Letters are not meant to be regulatory in nature although they may deal with regulatory matters. Although they do not directly affect Industry, they are posted on the Web and available to the public for information purposes. Where the information affects Industry, an accompanying Commercial & Business Aviation Advisory Circular is also issued.

CARS references. Always ask for CARS references. If none are available, then somebody needs to begin the CARAC process. There are many reasons why policy is not law, but the process to enable new laws is lengthy and Transport often attempts to bypass the proper legal process.

Always always read the fine print and when in doubt talk to your lawyer...

Cheers,
Snoopy