Dual as CoPilot?

Blue Jets · Post by **Blue Jets** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:34 pm

Hi Guys, a quick question. In Canada, is Dual considered to be CoPilot for the purposes of the ATPL 100hr night component?

Sorry for the silly question but I've had mixed reports.

Thanks for your time.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:10 pm

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:06 pm

... and No.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:40 pm

yes... i mean no.

Highflyinpilot · Post by **Highflyinpilot** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:59 am

You's are all wrong........ It's no

Justwannafly · Post by **Justwannafly** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:29 pm

YEP, its NO

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:41 pm

Uhm...No. Dual is considered....wait for it....dual.

Freeski · Post by **Freeski** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:09 pm

co-joe wrote:Uhm...No. Dual is considered....wait for it....dual.

I was in suspense on that one.

Red Line · Post by **Red Line** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:46 pm

I'm so confused...

767 · Post by **767** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:39 pm

YES IT IS!!!!!

no its not

The Other Kind · Post by **The Other Kind** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:45 pm

Yes

If they don't check

C-KEEP · Post by **C-KEEP** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:39 am

If I'm not mistaken, copilot time is logged as Second-in-Command time and it's a 2:1 ratio where 2 hrs of copilot time counts as 1 hr towards the ATPL.

As far as the night requirement, I'm not sure if it's under the same rule or not as an F/O.

bandit1 · Post by **bandit1** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:47 pm

don't listen to what anyone says and go check it out on the TC site yourself so you are 100% sure.

I think that other than the 25 hours PIC XC night, the 100 total can be anything. be don't believe me!

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:38 pm

Dual is flying done for the purpose of instruction, ie the recipient of the dual is a student of some sort and hence not qualified to act as crew in that given situation. Co-pilot time is flying done as a crew member in a situation that requires two crew members; ie an aircraft that's type certificate requires 2 or more crew, or an operator who's OC requires two crew.

EPR · Post by **EPR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:06 pm

Yes,but when training for your PPC...you would log it as dual till your actual ride for the PPC.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:55 am

CAR 421.34(4) Experience:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_34

says:

The total flight time shall include a minimum of ...
(b) 100 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of which a minimum of 30 hours shall have been acquired in aeroplanes;

I am not a lawyer, but thanks to Transport I spend more time in court rooms than many lawyers .. the above is pretty clear. The 100 hours night must be as PIC or co-pilot. PIC is not dual. Co-pilot is not dual. Therefore dual time doesn't count. Nice try, though!

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:36 pm

It is hard to believe that anyone is trying to split hairs to meet the MINIMUMS for a license or rating. the sense I get is if you can fenagle the rating that is all that matters. the first few posters had it right...Dual is dual. Period.

I for one would like to see Transport Canada require only PIC time for an ATPL. That would simplify things, would it not? And maybe do, as other countries do, require endorsements on all types, the endorsement to include the fact that training was actually done on type before any time was logged.
And while I am on it, how about TC actually doing a check on the logged times to see that the pilots have not been adding an extra .1 or so to every flight.

It is just to bad that so many pilots do not have the integrity to log properly, or the understanding of why these requirements exist.

Jimmy Mack · Post by **Jimmy Mack** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:08 pm

trey kule wrote:And while I am on it, how about TC actually doing a check on the logged times to see that the pilots have not been adding an extra .1 or so to every flight.

You propose that TC look at every Journey Log of every plane that an applicant has flown for 1000hours to make sure he's logging honestly?

You think you hear bitching now about a bogged down beauracracy...

JM

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:01 pm

J. Mack wrote:

ou propose that TC look at every Journey Log of every plane that an applicant has flown for 1000hours to make sure he's logging honestly?

Perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been as that is not what I was proposing. firstly, it was just a rant our of pure frustration for this type of pilot we seem to be seeing more and more of lately. Having said that, I meant audit type checks. Not every time, every entry. Most Tc types are familiar with their territory. If you notice that a person is flying a 120 kt airplane between two airports that are 40 miles apart and is logging .8 hours every flight, maybe it would be good to do a little check.
As an aside, due to some very very nasty recent experiences, our company now does a very thorough check on claimed times if a pilot does not have a PPC or PCC prior to the log book enteries. You would be surprised, I think, to see just how widespread this parker penning of time is in the new clas of pilots.

As to the other part regarding Tc. That was sort of tongue in cheek....sort of.