Jazz Cadet program??

[Kelowna Pilot]

I can see Air Canada perhaps doing this as a cost saving measure.

Starting salaries for AC new-hires are what, $37,000 per year. (What a joke!)

You could probably bring a cadet graduate on line who would work for half that amount (like you find in the US).

Air Canada could also make money on the Cadet Training program... charge huge tuitions... they could get away with it, too. People would pay.

As for all the "if you have 200 hours you can't possibly land a Dash 8 in crosswind".... they do it in Europe and Asia all the time. You guys are full of yourselves if you think you're some kind of hero because you can land a plane in a crosswind. Before landing do you run into the washroom to change into your superman costume?

[Chuck D]

The idea of a 200-hour pilot trying to land an RJ with even a 10 kt X-wind in minor turbulence, and say on a visual day is a scary thought; they would also have a hell of a time with the Dash. They could not do it with any degree of success without practice, and I don’t mean sim time. They lack the judgment, and experience to properly judge when things are going wrong let alone to finesse a smooth, safe landing. Now add some good winds, moderate turb, and IMC…

Why would Jazz put the planes, crews, passengers, and company through that kind of potential danger? They wouldn’t, they won’t.

Wow landing a jet in a x-wind with turbulance must be a god like technique that only those who have 5000 hours and knowledge of the "force" must be able to figure out. Give me a break! The guys I fly with seem to handle the x-winds on the 737 ok. They only have 200-250 hours. As for the danger, pax won't fly. Where do you come up with that one? Why do Air France, BA, KLM, Lufthansa, EasyJet have passengers if they have low hour FOs.

[Sage]

The idea of a 200-hour pilot trying to land an RJ with even a 10 kt X-wind in minor turbulence, and say on a visual day is a scary thought; they would also have a hell of a time with the Dash. They could not do it with any degree of success without practice, and I don’t mean sim time. They lack the judgment, and experience to properly judge when things are going wrong let alone to finesse a smooth, safe landing. Now add some good winds, moderate turb, and IMC…

Why would Jazz put the planes, crews, passengers, and company through that kind of potential danger? They wouldn’t, they won’t.

Wow landing a jet in a x-wind with turbulance must be a god like technique that only those who have 5000 hours and knowledge of the "force" must be able to figure out. Give me a break! The guys I fly with seem to handle the x-winds on the 737 ok. They only have 200-250 hours. As for the danger, pax won't fly. Where do you come up with that one? Why do Air France, BA, KLM, Lufthansa, EasyJet have passengers if they have low hour FOs.

Have you ever tried landing a CRJ in a crosswind? Have you ever tried taking off in a CRJ in a stiff crosswind? I doubt any 200-250 hour pilot can get that correctly. The CRJ has got to be the twitchiest airplane around. It feels and responds to the smallest gust or wind change. It's those short, low to the ground, stiff wings with the built-in fighter jet handling characteristics to them. I seem to recall something about the AC guys getting a lot of wingtip scrapes during landing...I forget the figure though. Even with full aileron, takeoff with a stiff crosswind is a challenge for experienced guys...you absolutely feel as if you are dragging the opposite wing tip while dancing up a storm on the pedals. A 200-250 hour pilot will put an RJ in.

[abc xyz]

the precedent has been set that 200 hr pilots can clearly do a fine job. AC probably hasnt looked at that route simply becasue a cheap supply already exists. If the day ever comes that a cadet style comes to AC do you really think they will allow people they see unfit for the job to make it through. just cuz you have time in the logbook doesnt mean your some fucking hotshot pilot.

There are some guys at AC who I wouldnt trust my family on their airplane. They all have thousands of hours but have no business flying for a living. thankfully they are few and far between.

[KAG]

Lets not forget that RJ or Dash lack such things as auto throttles, auto land, and a few other goodies. They are still flown, requiring alittle skill, that a 200 hour pilot does not have, at least trained here in Canada with our current system.
Yes with training that 200 hour could learn, but why do it here in Canada when there is a pool of experienced drivers around...and that is what this thread is about.

There is no 200 pilot in Canada that is civilian trained right now that could pass either a Dash course or RJ course that Jazz offers. if the system were drastically changed (from day one up of PPL training), then yes they could.

And yes I have god like abilities to land in a Xwind, and I also prefer the batman suit, the superman cape gets caught in the washroom's door.

[Dark Helmet]

Even if Jazz tried to do this, it would get squashed by the pilot union, the insurance company, the FA’s union, and most likely the general public cause the media would blow it way out of proportion.

It isn’t going to happen here at Jazz, and that’s what this thread is about.

Guys that pretty much sums it all up. I don't know why are still arguing about this.



By the way I prefer the Superman suit. I can lift myself off the ground to check the engine intakes of the Dash for icing during a walkaround after a flight without using a ladder. The cape works well as a rain coat too.

Cheers

[Traf]

All the guys arguing FOR are saying that "if they had to" AC could hire 200 hour pilots. THEY DON'T HAVE TO IN CANADA!!!. That is the point.

It is kind of like a pilot that works in isolation. You would be amazed at some of the women he is willing to sack up with. But, once that same pilot reaches civilization, he is likely going to find a little higher standard of HO.

The fresh out of college grads are essentially the toothless, dirty haired HOs and they will be called upon when all other options do not exist! Simple!

[RB-211]

Ok. This discussion has reached its end. Like some of you have said. AC/Jazz/WJ will not hire low timers because there is shite loads of people with experience waiting for the job. The same is true in most places so that one is dead.

My carrier hires newbies at the regional level on the EMB145/DASH8/J41/ATP. At the mainline it hires them on the 737 and the A320. The CAA (UK Authority) advises against 200 hour pilots flying the 767/777/747 until they have 1000 hours due to their weight.

Any of you that still think a well trained 200 hour pilot cant fly CRJ is living on Mars. To be honest the wind in Europe is always down the runway, it is never foggy and we never get snow. Ya thats it.......

Where is my Batman suit anyways?

[Kelowna Pilot]

I thought there was a great "pilot shortage"?

All the guys arguing FOR are saying that "if they had to" AC could hire 200 hour pilots. THEY DON'T HAVE TO IN CANADA!!!. That is the point.

That's very true, but my point is you could turn a cadet program into a revenue source for AC *and* you could pay the same FO even less than what AC pays its current new hire FO's who generally come with significant experience.

If I was Milton this is what I would be pushing for. Milton would have no problems finding competent FO's who would work for $10 to $15,000, or even less.

Think of the cost savings...

Union doesn't like it.... well, unions aren't as powerful as they used to be...

[KAG]

Ok. :

Where is my Batman suit anyways?

You can borrow mine, it's a 44 R...

Also am now wondering how the 200 hour pilots are trained differently compared to their Canadian counterparts. I gather these cadet course are pretty indepth, but how much different are they from the courses offered in Canada?

[Traf]

That's very true, but my point is you could turn a cadet program into a revenue source for AC *and* you could pay the same FO even less than what AC pays its current new hire FO's who generally come with significant experience.

SHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Maybe Milton is reading this. Just what we need, an even lower pay group in the Canadian airline system.

[crossbars]

This has been done before, yes even here in Canada. In the late 90's Inter-Canadian hired some CQFA (Chicoutimi college) graduates on their ATR-42's. The guys were trained to standards and from what I heard, did a fine job. Their biggest problem was getting their ATPL.

The problem I see with this on the long run is eventually their seniority number will permit them to hold a captain seat and if they managed to get their ATPL signed off (this may include renting airplanes at the local flight school for pic time), you end up with captains that have no command time. I may be a bit old school, but I still think that time spent in light twins and turbo props is the best way to develop judgement and decision making skills.

However one could argue, and make very valid points by stating that you are better off learning the right way the first time with very experienced and qualified captains. Also having worked at Jazz, I can say that the training is excellent and most of the decisions you make on the line are done in consultation with dispatch.

Bottom line, this can, and has been done.

[squawk 7600]

Jesus christ Traf...you are an A$%WHOLE! I wasted 3.5 mins of my life staring at those boobies! Nice smile too.

[waterpooch989]

......

[Chuck D]

In Canada you don't hear of airline category aircraft going down, you do however, hear of these occurrences in other parts of the world. But not in Canada, because the experience levels are much higher than in most other parts of the world.

What a load of B.S.! If you look at the accident rate between Canada and Western Europe, where yes they do hire newbies you'll find the rates quite comparable to each other. If you are looking at Africa for comparison, I'd look at the maintanence and quality of training before I'd play the 200 hour pilot boogey man card.

[Dark Helmet]

Well that is fascinating. So you European fellows can go ahead and fly with your 200 hr pilots.

Those of us who are flying in Canada will stick to flying with experienced people beside us.

That way everyone is happy.

Cheers

[waterpooch989]

In retrospect, we shouldn't be talking about accidents where people were hurt and families were hurt, and I was wrong for posting in that manner. That's not what this site was intended for.

And for that I am trully sorry.

[Chuck D]

Out of that vast post, when was the last Airline category plane that went down in Canada, with of course a Canadian registration??

You have any? Lets see you back that statement up!

Air Canada CRJ - December 1997 (Runway Excursion)
JetsGo MD80 - Jan 2005 (Runway Excursion)
Skyservice 767 (Hard Landing)
Air Transat A330 - August 2001
WestJet B737 - Dec 05 (Wingtip Strike)

[waterpooch989]

I will admit a match or defeat there, not bad....

[cyyz]

Air Canada CRJ - December 1997 (Runway Excursion)
JetsGo MD80 - Jan 2005 (Runway Excursion)
Skyservice 767 (Hard Landing)
Air Transat A330 - August 2001
WestJet B737 - Dec 05 (Wingtip Strike)

And who was flying at the time, the f/o?(dunno)...

So you'll get a crappy f/o at 200 or 2000....

-------------------

Jazz can put them through seneca, our tax dollars can pay for their bill, and as soon as they're in Jazz, they'll be applying for anyone else...

Jazz Loses, Taxpayer loses...

------------------

F/E's how many hours of flight time do they have? None, you only need the right and side seat filled for SOP's and Regulations, if JAA allowed for everything to be single pilot and all the other agencies followed suit we'd have planes being flown by single pilots, but I would guess a substantial sum of money that they wouldn't be 200 hours pilots.

So you can pay anyone to be PNF and it doesn't matter their hours...

-----------------

If Jazz wants to pay for their tuition, or have the students pay for it, I don't care what they do...

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

I'm just as good with my 200hrs as anybody with 2000 or 3000 or 4000...I know 'cause the aviation college told me I would be if I enrolled...

[bob sacamano]

When they do take a 200hr wonder, do the actually sit them right seat right off the bat? Back home they jump seat for a while, then they fly above 10K, and slowly work their way down. To become an unrestricted F/O back home, you need to have 3,000hours. Then to be able to apply for left seat (which usually comes 20 years later), you need to have 4,000 I believe.

I'm interested in knowing if 200 hr wonders at AF or LH get to land the sucker on their first day.

[Chuck D]

When they do take a 200hr wonder, do the actually sit them right seat right off the bat?
I'm interested in knowing if 200 hr wonders at AF or LH get to land the sucker on their first day.

I know for a fact at most European airlines who hire "200 Hour Wonders" don't sit them in the right seat right off the bat fresh out of flight school. First they do a type rating, ground school tech stuff, sim training + ride, touch and go's (to get aircraft type on licence). After that they are released for line indoc, where yes the do sit in the right seat and get to touch all the buttons and land the thing. Most airlines recommend new hires ride in the jumpseat for a few days to see the SOP's and general workload first hand before being dropped in the hot seat. Hope that answers your question.

[Traf]

Again, Canada does not have to do it so they don't!!! There are plenty of guys with all kinds of time applying to Jazz and AC that are willing to take the pay hit. When that stops, maybe they will have to hire 200 wonderpunks!

Face it, anyone can get a pilot's licence in this country so there will never be a shortage. The colleges are pumping them out faster than the industry can eat em up.

To those of you who argue that a fresh college punk with no bad habits would be better to train, I say PFFFFFFT!!! I want to fly with a guy that has scared himself a few times and has made some mistakes and learned from them. Who wants to be there in a transposrt category aircraft while junior is learning the dos and don'ts of flying.

[Dark Helmet]

Well. The way things are looking right now. Between 2015 and 2018 giver or take a year or two. There is going to be mass retirements at Jazz and possibly some at AC.

Maybe then they might have room for the 200 hr wonder to jump right in. Until then, I don't see it happening.

To be Continued.........