Canada and the C17

[mellow_pilot]

Easy there... don't make promises you can't keep...

[yultoto]

You're now both thouroughly convinced you're arguing with a moron, why not give it a rest? Personally I think it's gotten rather tedious.

You are 100% correct. I give up. I might even go visit our C-17 when I run into one on the tarmac of some airport sometime next year.

Edit: I'll even take a picture of myself at the controls when I do, and I'll post it.

[yultoto]

The airplane will also probally make a great FWSAR platform for the CF on both coasts... good speed, amphibious (if the water is calm enough, land right next and pull the guy onboard), good carrying capacity, and rugged. Fit it with Western avionics (perferably the same layout as in the A310 to have cockpit commonality with the CF's fleet), and fitted with a Western engine (RR BR-715 or PW6000). Beriev would probally be interested in doing this, to attract Western orders.

I found this interesting comment left on another thread about the Russian Beriev BE-200 amphibious aircraft. Thought I'd share it with those who read all the comments left here by the same poster.

[w squared]

Wow...you never cease to amaze me with your ability to produce evidence that has absolutely zero bearing on the matter at hand, yultoto.

SO WHAT if somebody suggested that the Beriev could be upgraded to render it a good choice for coastal SAR in a place where nobody is shooting at it. Is your knowledge of basic military realities so limited that you can't see the "apples to oranges" differences between the electronics fit of a FWSAR platform and an airlifter? Or the differences in the maintenance situation between aircraft that only operate from established CF SAR bases versus an airlifter that will literally be circumnavigating the globe?

[WJflyer]

The airplane will also probally make a great FWSAR platform for the CF on both coasts... good speed, amphibious (if the water is calm enough, land right next and pull the guy onboard), good carrying capacity, and rugged. Fit it with Western avionics (perferably the same layout as in the A310 to have cockpit commonality with the CF's fleet), and fitted with a Western engine (RR BR-715 or PW6000). Beriev would probally be interested in doing this, to attract Western orders.

I found this interesting comment left on another thread about the Russian Beriev BE-200 amphibious aircraft. Thought I'd share it with those who read all the comments left here by the same poster.

Of course, I was making the assumption that cost isn't a factor in doing it. And with the level of upgrades I was proposing, cost will be a major factor. And besides, we have something somewhat comparable in Western service already: the Bombardier CL-415.

[EI-EIO]

The advantage of using Eastbloc rather than NATO equipment in Afghanistan is clear.

• The ANA personnel would have extensive exposure to it given the materiel left over from the Soviet regime.

• It's cheap to buy in bulk for a "quantity rather than quality" operation and designed to work in adverse conditions, albeit without the bells and whistles NATO troops are becoming accustomed to in their weaponry.

Why introduce expensive NATO equipment into an environment that really doesn't need to spend more than it has to on security given the low government revenue (about 300m US I think).

The CF can afford NATO standard equipment that can be easily integrated and later retrofitted and causes fewer OPSEC issues because we have a small highly trained force. At 1.1% we do not spend a disproportionate amount of money on the military compared to other countries no matter what Layton and OCAP say.

[WJflyer]

The advantage of using Eastbloc rather than NATO equipment in Afghanistan is clear.

• The ANA personnel would have extensive exposure to it given the materiel left over from the Soviet regime.

• It's cheap to buy in bulk for a "quantity rather than quality" operation and designed to work in adverse conditions, albeit without the bells and whistles NATO troops are becoming accustomed to in their weaponry.

Why introduce expensive NATO equipment into an environment that really doesn't need to spend more than it has to on security given the low government revenue (about 300m US I think).

The CF can afford NATO standard equipment that can be easily integrated and later retrofitted and causes fewer OPSEC issues because we have a small highly trained force. At 1.1% we do not spend a disproportionate amount of money on the military compared to other countries no matter what Layton and OCAP say.

In fact, many other more peaceful nations, such as Sweden, and Norway spend a larger portion of their GDP on defense. Other NATO countries have complained that we don't spend enough on defence.

[mellow_pilot]

Which is ironic, because they're sitting on their asses in the sandbox...

[yultoto]

WJflyer
I had never bothered to read your previous posts on other threads. The other day I fell upon the Beriev one by accident. Today, while reading an AN-124 thread, I find these. What a surprise. I can deduct that if in six months, the new Defence Minister decides the CF cant afford C-17s after all and goes for some other formula, you are going to praise that decision on this Forum? What suprises me even more, is that the other people who regularly post here were well aware of your previous comments and nobody brought up that you weathervaned according to the decisions of the Brass of the day.

The Canadian forces do not require a aircraft as large as the AN-124. The IL-76 is a better fit for the Canadian forces, as the Canadian forces are retiring some of their larger equipment, such as their Leopard tanks and M109 self-propelled guns. The Canadian forces is keeping their lighter weight armour, such as the M113 and LAV III vehicles, which a IL-76 can easily lift (as demostrated by the Canada to Afghanistan mission).

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift.htm
Word is that although DND is most impressed with the AN-124, but in reality, the IL-76 is more than sufficient and at a good price for Canada. Ilyushin is more than willing to westernize the IL-76 by fitting either the CFM-56, Rolls-Royce RB211-525, or the Pratt & Whitney PW2000, and installing Rockwell Collins avionics (similar to the upgraded C-130's in CF service). The IL-76MD (stretched and re-engined) is quoted to cost about $50 million US each for a brand new, fully Westernized version, while Russian copies is $15 million US less. For a comparison, new C-130J's cost $60 million US, and C-17's cost $240 million US each copy.

Also being considered by DND is the Airbus A400M. However, there are a few major strikes against it:
1. The A400M remains a ‘paper airplane’, with first delivers in 2009
2. Even if DND were to order the plane, Canada would not be first in line. Not only will the original eight European NATO nations involved in the project expect early deliver, now South Africa (the first export customer) has ordered 7 A400Ms (with options on 7 more). Canada wanted new planes to be delivered in 2005-2007 (now starting to look unreasonable).
3. Cargo capacity: The cargo hold is only slightly bigger and can carry more than the C-130 (20 tons for A400M, 15 tons for C-130J).

The problem with the C-17 is cost. We simply can't afford those jets, as it has been estimated that six C-17s would cost DND $1- to-$1.6 billion dollars (from $2.3 billion alloted to replacing the entire CF C-130 fleet). Also, the CF is weaning off equipment that requires something the size of the AN-124, C-17 or C-5 to lift, and the CF is also ruminating about new support ships that can carry vehicles and equipment, and amphibious assault ships as well, rendering the requirements for a very large airlifter moot. The IL-76 are more than big enough to carry our vehicles, and comes at an attractive price. As I stated before, Ilyushin already has a Westernized version avaiable, using Western engines and avionics, and we are talking about new build aircraft. Ilyushin and Volga-Dnepr are working to certify their IL-76's to ICAO standards (made easier by the fully Westernized versions of the jet). For commercial operation, new IL-76s have AP 25 certification (older IL-76 models were built to meet Soviet NLGS-3 standard not AP 25.) Russia’s AP 25 regulations are compatible with western certification but most western countries, including Canada, have their own distinct form of civil aviation regulations. To gain a Canadian Type Certificate, any new ‘transport category’ aircraft must meet the terms of Chapter 525 of Transport Canada’s Airworthiness Manual. This certification allows military aircraft to operate in civilian airspace including landing at international airports. Canadian Aviation Regulations are closely matched to US FAR 25 rules. Indeed, according to Transport Canada, “... there are no interpretive or regulatory differences between FAR 25 and Chapter 525.” Both Europe and Russia (through the CIS Aviation Register) are aiming at similiar compatability with FAR 25 for their certification standards – JAR 25 and AP 25 respectively. In the mean time, Volga-Dnepr is highly motivated to certify their converted IL-76s for global operations which will make the entire certification issue moot.

Well since you are such an IL-76 fan after all, here is a nice picture for you.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1048275/M/

This is the cockpit of a Volga-Dnepr IL-76TD-90VD. Its not a new machine but an old 76TD that was upgraded with new avionics and new Perm-90 Stage IV compliant engines. Its about a 10 million$ upgrade but it does not make the IL-76 JAR 25 compliant yet.

Interesting trivia I found :
Between Dec 1979 and 1991, the Soviet Air Force Il-76s did 14,700 flights into Afghanistan, transporting 786,200 servicemen, and 315,800 tons of freight. The IL-76 carried 89% of Soviet troops and 74% of the freight that was airlifted.They suffered some losses. On Dec 25, 1979, the day of the invasion, an IL-76 full of troops crashed into a mountain near Kabul. Some say it was shot down. Others call it a CFIT. On June 5 1983, another one may have crashed near Jalalabad. I only found this one in one of several sources consulted. In late 1984 an IL-76 was shot down near Kabul by a captured SA-7 Grail SAM. It is after that incident that IL-76s were fitted with countermeasures. On March 27 1990, an IL-76 crashed near Kabul in a pilot error accident. On June 6 1990, an IL-76 was apparently hit by SAM at 25,400 feet and landed on its belly in Kabul. They normally only turned on the countermeasures at 22,500 feet while on approach, an altitude which was supposed to be well above the Stingers' max altitude of 15,000 feet. Finally, after the Soviet withdrawl, on Aug 28 1992, an IL-76 on the ground in Kabul to evacuate Russian embassy personnel received a direct artillery hit and burned, making it the final Russian loss in Afghanistan.

Fifteen years later, these same aircraft, and possibly some of the same pilots, are doing a great job for Canada, keeping our troops in Afghanistan supplied. Gen Lucas just told the Standing Committe on National Defence that 75% of the freight flown into Afghanistan by the CF is done with chartered aircraft and that the bulk of that is flown by IL-76s.

[WJflyer]

yultoto:

When I made those statements, it was before I joined the DND. Now, because I am a DND employee and see the issues first hand, my viewpoint on the matter changed because first hand experience on the matter. CF has also changed, with the resurgence of the importance of heavy armour, meaning that the tank will continue to be part of the CF for the near future, as the retirement of the Leopard tank has been halted to accommodate the new strategic picture (this was done before the Conservatives took power), and the increased interest in a proper Leopard tank replacement. Canada needs operational sovereignty over our airlifters and the increased use of rented airlift because our Hercs are too clapped out to fly is not a good situation. We can't get brand new Hercs tomorrow if we ordered them today: they will take a few years to get here. In the meantime, we need all the lift we can get to take the load off of the CF Herc fleet. The continued multi-billion dollar surpluses being run by the Federal government now means that we can afford to purchase some heavy airlift. If the government can pour billions into healthcare and cut taxes, surely they can spend more on the military.

And as I stated before: there are standards to be adhered to: We can't abandon them because we are a Western nation and have a Western military. I have a new appreciation for those standards as they are important to the running of our military.

[hollywood]

yultoto:

When I made those statements, it was before I joined the DND. Now, because I am a DND employee and see the issues first hand, my viewpoint on the matter changed because first hand experience on the matter..

wow the basic training at St. Jean must have been an eye opening experiance for you... Reserves are only during the summer, so assuming your a reg. force officer (pilot), and assuming you joined up the day after your negative comments, you must be starting your second lang. training now? I mean learning how to build a rope bride, sign a leave pass, and do inspections must have been where you picked up this vast information that changed your views.......unless your a CIC officer, and completed that 2 week course on childhood disipline...... then thats a different story all toghter.

[mellow_pilot]

WJ is a civillian if I'm not mistaken. Works with NDHQ. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember from the thread and others... I'm far too lazy to go searching for it on my vacation.

[WJflyer]

WJ is a civillian if I'm not mistaken. Works with NDHQ. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember from the thread and others... I'm far too lazy to go searching for it on my vacation.

Yep, you got it right mellow. Saw some things first hand which immediately changed my view of the situation at hand. I see and read a lot of stuff while a work, which changes how I view the situation with the CF.

[w squared]

yultoto:

When I made those statements, it was before I joined the DND. Now, because I am a DND employee and see the issues first hand, my viewpoint on the matter changed because first hand experience on the matter..

wow the basic training at St. Jean must have been an eye opening experiance for you... Reserves are only during the summer, so assuming your a reg. force officer (pilot), and assuming you joined up the day after your negative comments, you must be starting your second lang. training now? I mean learning how to build a rope bride, sign a leave pass, and do inspections must have been where you picked up this vast information that changed your views.......unless your a CIC officer, and completed that 2 week course on childhood disipline...... then thats a different story all toghter.

That's an awfully condescending attitude from someone who did their BOTC in 2005, Hollywood. Given that you've just had the "U" designator taken off your MOC (if in fact you have), you're not exactly the paragon of military experience. Think about what you've written in the past before you start sounding off about somebody else's lack of experience, 2Lt Bloggins.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... highlight=

[hollywood]

yultoto:

When I made those statements, it was before I joined the DND. Now, because I am a DND employee and see the issues first hand, my viewpoint on the matter changed because first hand experience on the matter..

wow the basic training at St. Jean must have been an eye opening experiance for you... Reserves are only during the summer, so assuming your a reg. force officer (pilot), and assuming you joined up the day after your negative comments, you must be starting your second lang. training now? I mean learning how to build a rope bride, sign a leave pass, and do inspections must have been where you picked up this vast information that changed your views.......unless your a CIC officer, and completed that 2 week course on childhood disipline...... then thats a different story all toghter.

That's an awfully condescending attitude from someone who did their BOTC in 2005, Hollywood. Given that you've just had the "U" designator taken off your MOC (if in fact you have), you're not exactly the paragon of military experience. Think about what you've written in the past before you start sounding off about somebody else's lack of experience, 2Lt Bloggins.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... highlight=

you forgot about this though http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=23934

xo, Merry Xmas,

Bmdr. / Lt. Bloggins

[Smurfjet]

Bleh...This thing here is still going after 10 pages!

Anyway, we all know that the IL76 is just an RJ on steriods. You don't believe me, check this.

[WJflyer]

Brits are mulling another follow-on order for 3 more C-17's, on top of the 3 they already have, and the 1 they have on order:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/artic ... 62,00.html

MoD pins hopes on Boeing C17 amid Airbus doubts
David Robertson
The Ministry of Defence is facing a new procurement crisis as it tries to boost the strength of its heavy transport aircraft.

As fears grow that the delivery schedule for Airbus’s rival transport aircraft will slip further, The Times has learnt that the MoD is planning to buy three Boeing C17 Globemaster IIIs for about $660 million (£337 million). But its plans are threatened by the potential closure of the C17 production line in the United States.

The Royal Air Force wants the additional C17s because it is understood to be impressed by its existing fleet and concerned about the delivery schedule for the Airbus 400M. The MoD, which leased four C17s from Boeing before buying them earlier this year, has already committed to buying a fifth in the new year.

Sources at Boeing have revealed that the British Government is in negotiations to purchase a further three, but this deal will depend on the United States Government continuing the C17 project, which is rapidly running out of orders. If production is maintained, the sixth C17 for the RAF should be delivered in 2009-10.

When Britain said in 2001 that it would lease C17s from Boeing, it caused controversy. Critics pointed out that the £769 million deal would cost more than buying the aircraft.

However, the Government originally wanted the C17s as cover while Airbus developed the A400M. Airbus was supposed to start to deliver the A400M this year, but the date slipped to 2008. Several analysts believe that 2009 or 2010 may be more likely. Airbus, which has been dogged by a two-year delay to its civil A380 project, denied that there would be further delays.

[w squared]

I didn't forget about anything, Hollywood. Two years in the reserves is a valuable experience, and I would not trivialize it. However, if it did indeed make you into a paragon of military knowledge and wisdom, then you'd probably be able to skip right over all that annoying BOTC and SLT stuff and fast-track straight to the fast-jet course, right? Because that's exactly what you did, right?

All I'm saying is that those who live in glass domiciles should think twice about forcefully projecting igneous mineral objects. Don't tell somebody that their opinion isn't worthwhile because they've only been a DND employee for a short period of time when you're still 10 years from your CD.

Also understand that not everyone working for DND is in uniform. There are lots of folks that have very specific skills and a pile of education that make them valuable to DND apart from those things that are exclusive to uniformed personell. As a matter of fact, I happen to know three people that work at DNDHQ in mufti during the day, and are respectively a captain, a major, and a full colonel (a brigade commander) in local reserve units in their off time. Only one of the three owes his day job to his military qualification in any way, shape, or form.

I'm not trying to be slam you here. I'm trying to make you understand that a couple of years as an NCM in a reserve artillery unit, and some (but not all) of the training that you need to work as a pilot in a squadron still leaves you with a pile of learning left to do. Speaking from experience, it doesn't matter if you're the top candidate on your course, there's still a lot of lessons left to internalize when you get to a unit - especially when you're responsible for real, thinking, feeling soldiers.

One of the best tools you can have in order to learn those lessons (and maybe even reduce the pain involved in the process) is to actively project "sponge". This means that you ensure that others around you see "I am a sponge, fill me with knowledge". This doesn't mean that you become a brown-noser, or that you pretend to have less knowledge than you have - it means that you actively demonstrate your understanding that a big part of your job is to learn.

Telling other people who have demonstrated their competence (if you take the time to read their posts) that they couldn't possibly know what they're talking about because you think they only just went through BOTC is not an example of "sponge" in action.

[hollywood]

[quote="w squared"]I didn't forget about anything, Hollywood. Two years in the reserves is a valuable experience, and I would not trivialize it. However, if it did indeed make you into a paragon of military knowledge and wisdom, then you'd probably be able to skip right over all that annoying BOTC and SLT stuff and fast-track straight to the fast-jet course, right? Because that's exactly what you did, right?

/quote]

The leadership course of Mcpl is a bypass of IAP, and the WO course is the bypass of BOTC. Being a lonley corporal, I did not bypass anything. SLT training anyone can bypass, if they demonstrate a level of B A B on the lang. test. There was one Sarg. on my BOTC that had 3 tours, and almost 18 years in, as well as around 10 Mcpl's. Any reserve time or reg force time wont count towards your lang. profile. One could have 20 years in, but not speak a word of french and have to do SLT. On the other hand a baby faced Ocdt. could have taken French 12 and studied hard, then easly gotten his profile. Primary Flight Training can be bypassed if you went to a DND acreditied Canadian Fight School. Usually any program with a degree or diploma in Aviaiton, for example Coastal Pacific in Abbotsoford. As for jets, my legs are to long... but on a sidenote the aircrew selection process varies. Myself had over 1000 hours civy time, and had to goto Trenton for the sims. Ive heard from some guys that have had there private licence that got an automatic in, and one guy on my IAP had 3 years in Air Cadets, and got an in.... so go figure.


To get back on topic of the post, if its going to take forever to get the C-130's and 17's in gear, I have an idea. Why dont we use those fast ferrys the NDP brought into place a few years back. Last time I saw they were just sitting around gathering rust. Slap a few .50 cals on the deck, and get the arty guys to hook up a few Javelins, paint it grey, and your ready to go. The thing had 3 decks of around 1000 cars, so im sure it could easly take 30 tanks, 30 LAV 3's, and a shit load of rounds. It took an hour at 80% speed to make it from Van to Nanaimo, so im guessing what, 3-4 days to make it across the pond to Europe, and another day to get up the gulf? Either that or we could built a bunch of large wooden gliders, and get the CIC to tow our armour over, kinda of like the Allies in Normandy. I saw some footage of jeeps and sherman tanks getting rolled out of those gliders yesterday lol.

[WJflyer]

To get back on topic of the post, if its going to take forever to get the C-130's and 17's in gear, I have an idea. Why dont we use those fast ferrys the NDP brought into place a few years back. Last time I saw they were just sitting around gathering rust. Slap a few .50 cals on the deck, and get the arty guys to hook up a few Javelins, paint it grey, and your ready to go. The thing had 3 decks of around 1000 cars, so im sure it could easly take 30 tanks, 30 LAV 3's, and a shit load of rounds. It took an hour at 80% speed to make it from Van to Nanaimo, so im guessing what, 3-4 days to make it across the pond to Europe, and another day to get up the gulf? Either that or we could built a bunch of large wooden gliders, and get the CIC to tow our armour over, kinda of like the Allies in Normandy. I saw some footage of jeeps and sherman tanks getting rolled out of those gliders yesterday lol.

Wrong ship to be doing it in. The problem with the Fastcats is that the ships are way too narrow for open seas; they were designed with the existing ferry docks in mind. Also, the deck structure on the vehicle decks on the fast ferries is not suited to carry a LAV at all; due to size and weight issues. In service, the Fastcats are only allowed to carry two buses and no large trucks or campers. A design suited for carrying heavy items, such as railway engines and such is ideally suited for the task, due to the heavy deck loading available to carry heavy pieces of equipment.

I would prefer to see a long-term lease of a commercial RO/RO ship with immediate access and basing in Canada for now until we get our own CF ship because it takes a while for the budget to be approved, design to be selected, then built, tested, and crew trained. It is either that, or the Americans loan us one of their Austin-class LPD's or one of their Whidbey Island-class LSD's as an interim vessel.

[mellow_pilot]

The Picificats are owned by Washington Marine Group out of Seattle. And they are hardly a military lifter. Someone's been reading too much Review out of SFU.

[hollywood]

I was being sarcastic about the ferrys and gliders. At anyrate from what ive heard through the grape vine is we have sent a number of boys down to the states to get rated on the C-17.

if anyone wants some more info on the subject, check out

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/ ... 825.0.html

cheers