Air Canada vs. Westjet

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:28 am

It will be interesting to see how AC does financially. Most of ACE's profits have come from Jazz, Aeroplan, both IPO's of the two, and timely investments (US Airways) so this should be the first quarter where we can see how AC - the airline - does on its own.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:55 am

Canadaeh.
Just to set the record straight, AC had been on its own for sixtysome years prior to ACE. And for those sixtysome years, the success of AC has been up and down, not unlike other carriers worldwide. It has survived many recessions, fuel price fluctuations, SARS, 9/11, labour disputes, mergers, competition and dumb-ass government regulation (is that enough for ya?) Now, we look forward to going back. I have news for you, it will probably be around a while. I know you'll be anxiuosly waiting to see the results. You probably won't see any huge profits. That's ok, our salaries don't rely on that (you know what I mean). Just don't rub those hands too hard, you might start a fire.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:01 am

tonysoprano wrote:The man basically tells it like it is. You can't handle it?
Hey 2low (yes another disgruntled Jazz guy), be careful, the AC hiring guys are reading this. Oh ya, sorry. Too late.

Tonny, wouldn't you be bitter to if you didn't get a fair crack at AC because and only because you work for little brother? Your a newer Jazz hire, keen, positive attitude, experienced, not involved with the lawsuit or any of the bad blood from before, and your still painted with the same brush as those at Jazz that are bitter and twisted?!

Jazz guys get a guaranteed interview, and almost a guaranteed PFO (currently 10% pass rate among newer hires). So yeah, some are getting rubbed the wrong way…can ya fault them?…

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:17 am

KAG.
I agree. You guys should be upset. If anything AC should give you guys top priority. But who do you blame? AC use to hire 40% from Jazz. Something along the way changed. I doubt ACPA had anything to do with because management does not allow ACPA to get involved in hiring policies. Was it ALPA? Was it the lawsuit? I doubt that too. Who knows? My point is the worse thing you can do is blame AC and have unwarranted bitterness that gets displayed on this forum and elsewhere. Trying to convince yourselfe that all the sudden your "eyes have been opened" is a bit of a copp out. If you're not happy at Jazz and don't think you'll make it to the mainline, don't make the mistake of becoming bitter. I'm not saying you are, but God knows there's a few out there. Some have no doubt participated in this stupid poll. Sorry for sounding harsh on you guys sometimes, but the bitterness rubs us older guys the wrong way.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:30 am

Canadaeh.
Just to set the record straight, AC had been on its own for sixtysome years prior to ACE. And for those sixtysome years, the success of AC has been up and down, not unlike other carriers worldwide. It has survived many recessions, fuel price fluctuations, SARS, 9/11, labour disputes, mergers, competition and dumb-ass government regulation (is that enough for ya?)

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. "Air Canada", prior to CCAA, was Air Canada mainline, Jazz, Aeroplan, ACTS, AC Vacations, etc. all lumped together. Post-CCAA, Air Canada is Air Canada (and AC Vacations and ground handling), Jazz is Jazz, Aeroplan is Aeroplan, and ACE is parts of all of them plus ACTS. I hope I'm not missing anything... So when I say Air Canada is "on its own", I mean it doesn't have profits from one (say, Jazz..) to boost or drop its own profit/loss. Air Canada will report its results from Air Canada (and AC Vacations and ground handling), not from Jazz/Aeroplan/ACTS. I hope that's more clear?

Now, we look forward to going back. I have news for you, it will probably be around a while. I know you'll be anxiuosly waiting to see the results. You probably won't see any huge profits. That's ok, our salaries don't rely on that (you know what I mean). Just don't rub those hands too hard, you might start a fire.

Don't assume I'm eager to see AC go away. I'm not and I never said I was. We're here to talk about airlines and I'm eager to see how AC does on its own. That's it, that's all. While ACE has been doing great since it exited CCAA, I've seen all these one-time partial selloffs and investments but without digging deep into the financials of the quarterly profits its hard to see where the profits are coming from (ex-selloffs and investments). We'll now have a clear picture, much like we do with Jazz and Aeroplan.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:16 pm

The Air Canada "group" pre and post CCAA(known as ACE) has always reported not only the team effort but also the performance of each member of the group. You have always been able to see how each portion of the group has performed as well as how the overall companies do together. We have had years where the mainline did very well on its own only to be dragged down by the rest of the group and yes there have been times when the mainline has been the worst performer of the group. I don't see that things are changing in any significant way. My point is, wether we stand alone or as a group, AC mainline has been through much adversity in its long history and done well despite it all, even before there was Jazz et all. Again, I don't see anything in the future that will change anything. The ups and downs will continue. Would I put my money into AC? No. I wouldn't put my money in any airline, including WJ (but I guess you have to if you're an owner). I don't need the experts telling me that. If I draw to the wrong conclusions on what you WJ folks are predicting for AC, I appologize, but your track record on this subject, starting with your boss, has been less than positive and downright insulting.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:07 pm

Tonny, I hear where your coming from, I just took slight offense to the "another bitter Jazz pilot" remark to 2low, and wanted to point out that if we are alittle pissed there is a valid reason.
No one is blaming ACPA, we all know it’s just how the game is played between our two companies, and besides I believe our two MEC’s are taking steps that may put this argument to bed for good – global solution.

As a side note, I have yet to do my AC interview (it’s coming up soon I gather) and who knows I may actually be in the lucky 10%, but I honestly want WJ. I’m not trying to convince myself that WJ is the be-all, end-all rather than a consolidation prize, I just think for me it’s a better fit.

Cheers.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:41 am

The Air Canada "group" pre and post CCAA(known as ACE) has always reported not only the team effort but also the performance of each member of the group. You have always been able to see how each portion of the group has performed as well as how the overall companies do together. We have had years where the mainline did very well on its own only to be dragged down by the rest of the group and yes there have been times when the mainline has been the worst performer of the group. I don't see that things are changing in any significant way.

Prior to CCAA, Air Canada was Air Canada. The pre-CCAA Air Canada included Jazz, ACTS, Aeroplan, Jetz, cargo, ground handling, and AC Vacations (hope I didn't miss anything). Post-CCAA, Air Canada emerged under the parent company - ACE - as did Jazz, Aeroplan, and ACTS (Jetz, ground handling, and AC Vacations all fall under "Air Canada").

Under the old structure, all of the above companies posted profits/losses under the title Air Canada. So if Jazz and Aeroplan had great quarters but mainline didn't, the losses were all attributed to Air Canada. The difference with ACE as the parent company is that instead of having all the companies "report" to Air Canada, they - including Air Canada mainline (and ground handling, cargo, Jetz, and AC Vacations) - report to ACE. ACE reported the profit/losses of the group. After spinning off Jazz and Aeroplan, ACE now reports its profit/losses based on partial results from Jazz and Aeroplan (ACE still owns most of both) and soon-to-be Air Canada (yet to report a quarter) while all three will also be reporting their own profit/losses separately.

Now that ACE has spunoff Aeroplan, Jazz, and now Air Canada - Air Canada (the airline) must make money in order to remain a viable long-term. If it doesn't make money, your job is in jeopardy. You won't have Jazz or Aeroplan to bail out losses; they report their own results separately from Air Canada's. This is a good thing because Air Canada is forced to become more efficient and competitive... or, it could be a bad thing and when nothing is left to burn, well..... we won't go there.

My point is, wether we stand alone or as a group, AC mainline has been through much adversity in its long history and done well despite it all, even before there was Jazz et all. Again, I don't see anything in the future that will change anything. The ups and downs will continue.

Yes but the game has changed. The structure of your airline has changed. Sure we're both riding high with a healthy duopoly but I wouldn't expect it to last forever. All it takes is one group of terrorists; one superbug; one catastrophic accident to launch us towards a bad year or years. You can ride high thinking that you're the better airline because you've been around for 75+ years but Air Canada is by itself now. No Jazz, no Aeroplan, and no ACTS (not that ACTS has been making money) to help boost profits. Air Canada has to make money just like WJ does - by flying people from A to B (and sometimes to C).

We're probably heading into or just heading out of one of the best years in recent memory. Westjet's leading the industry in profit margins. Last quarter I believe they were up around 18% vs. 5% at Air Canada. That's during the busiest, most profitable quarter of the year. When we're in 'ok' years, where do you think those profit margins will be then? Let's drop 'em by 5%: WS is still making money posting a 13% profit margin while Air Canada is breaking even at 0%. A further 5%? Westjet's posting an 8% profit margin while Air Canada is posting a -5% profit margin... or a loss.

Do you still see nothing changing?

Would I put my money into AC? No. I wouldn't put my money in any airline, including WJ (but I guess you have to if you're an owner). I don't need the experts telling me that. If I draw to the wrong conclusions on what you WJ folks are predicting for AC, I appologize, but your track record on this subject, starting with your boss, has been less than positive and downright insulting.

I don't speak for anyone but myself and I wish Air Canada the best. I do. I read a lot of opinions on quite a few different forums and I'm a little hesitant to consider Air Canada's spinoff a good thing. It might work out great or it might be a flop. The latter carries a scenario that is equal to or worse that what happened during CCAA and I'd hate to see that outcome.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:23 am

Eh.
Too bad you whent through all that work, we can agree or disagree on how the numbers are reported but you're still not getting the fundemental fact that as a performer, AC will do well no matter what the accounting is and in fact I predict it will do better on it's own. I sense that you and the rest of the Clive soldiers are continuing where Canadian left off. At least they had the equipment and manpower to compete on every level. Anyway, that's a whole other story.
I think you've been misled if you think Jazz or anyone else was supporting AC all those years. In recent years, our troubles haven't been attributed to a lack of efficiency but rather from factors which hopefully you will never have to go through. AC's success will not be dependent on its model but rather on how well the company gets managed. That's the only part I find troubling. Like I said, AC in amongst the rest of the group, has always performed. A certain merger and bad management and a perfect storm were all survived. WJ happened to be at the right place, right time with its Walmart prices during that storm. Things have changed and more importantly, they continue to change. Must be nice to be small and insignificant at a time of trouble. It may not be that way the next time. Don't get me wrong, for everybody's sake, I hope we can all survive the next downturn. I am confident we all will, with or without Clive and Robert. I'm just seeing it the way you do only from the other side. But like you say, we'll see what happens the next time there's trouble in the industry. And now, time to go make better use of my time. Flying an airplane.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:49 pm

Too bad you whent through all that work, we can agree or disagree on how the numbers are reported but you're still not getting the fundemental fact that as a performer, AC will do well no matter what the accounting is and in fact I predict it will do better on it's own.

I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. We've each got our own opinions and I can respect yours. We'll see what happens when WS starts to interline and what effect it will have on yields internationally.

I sense that you and the rest of the Clive soldiers are continuing where Canadian left off. At least they had the equipment and manpower to compete on every level. Anyway, that's a whole other story.

And look how successful they were.

At least we've managed to remain profitable for most of our 10 year history.

I think you've been misled if you think Jazz or anyone else was supporting AC all those years. In recent years, our troubles haven't been attributed to a lack of efficiency but rather from factors which hopefully you will never have to go through.

Nobody was supporting AC because your company lost BILLIONS of dollars. Every aspect of your airline stunk... at least CCAA allowed you to clean up and restructure your inefficiencies.

AC's success will not be dependent on its model but rather on how well the company gets managed. That's the only part I find troubling. Like I said, AC in amongst the rest of the group, has always performed. A certain merger and bad management and a perfect storm were all survived.

2009 has STRIKE written all over it and that sure doesn't look like a success to me. A business model will make or break an airline. Look at Westjet; look at Southwest; look at Ryanair or, on the flipside, look at Canjet; look at Jetsgo; look at Roots Air - all sucesses or failures based on their business models. Air Canada didn't have one before it entered CCAA because it was so disorganized. At least a restructuring has given it a more focused model.

WJ happened to be at the right place, right time with its Walmart prices during that storm. Things have changed and more importantly, they continue to change.

Agreed.

Must be nice to be small and insignificant at a time of trouble. It may not be that way the next time. Don't get me wrong, for everybody's sake, I hope we can all survive the next downturn. I am confident we all will, with or without Clive and Robert. I'm just seeing it the way you do only from the other side. But like you say, we'll see what happens the next time there's trouble in the industry. And now, time to go make better use of my time. Flying an airplane.

Agree again.

bowling · Post by **bowling** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:49 pm

Air Canada: by far because they also hire francophones...!!!!

backon3 · Post by **backon3** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:29 pm

Hey Bill! How's it goin? "I f$%^n hate Air Canada, all my friends hate Air Canada, they are the worst airline in history!! I can't wait until West Jet takes over their flying, Arrrghhh I can't stand Air Canada!!!" That's great Bill but don't you have a resume in with AC? "......yep"

qwert · Post by **qwert** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:57 pm

We all know that WJ will never take over AC. If even if they do... Who the F#$% cares. Dont you guys have girlfriends or in some cases boyfriends to bang.

Squid · Post by **Squid** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:21 pm

Walk the line in 2009! can't wait...Tony says his wife will bring some soup for us though.

2low · Post by **2low** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:26 pm

Soon as I let her off the chain.

YVR Dude · Post by **YVR Dude** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:51 am

As I've said before...

"Love your job and never work a day in your life"!

LYNX25 · Post by **LYNX25** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:32 am

Well said YVR dude

LYNX25 · Post by **LYNX25** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:58 pm

Now is it possible that Westjet could expand their fleet? Or are they going to stick with the 737 series for the next while?

Stick-Shaker · Post by **Stick-Shaker** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:24 am

Tony S: I like your points and you always make great arguments. But I want to suggest that this may not be a stupid poll. We all should have some loyalty to the brand we fly for and be here to support it when given the chance. The industry in Canada needs that. Its no different that cheering for the Calgary Flames or The Oilers. Sometimes they both can generally suck. But when they win, the hometown goes ape.

Just so you know, I did vote and it was for the Easter-Bunny Blue team!

Huge Hammer · Post by **Huge Hammer** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:36 pm

Tony S: I like your points

So you're the one.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:42 pm

Tony S: I like your points and you always make great arguments. But I want to suggest that this may not be a stupid poll. We all should have some loyalty to the brand we fly for and be here to support it when given the chance. The industry in Canada needs that. Its no different that cheering for the Calgary Flames or The Oilers. Sometimes they both can generally suck. But when they win, the hometown goes ape.

Just so you know, I did vote and it was for the Easter-Bunny Blue team!

I really need to get a life. Just got back from a great pairing in Europe (mini European vacation by all accounts and no I'm not going to apologize). So what's the first thing I does back at home? Yep here I am. Anyway folks, we all have our own ideas of what "best" is and that's the great thing about this forum. Truth is, and I've said this a million times, we are comparing apples and oranges. I will not expand on this as you have all read my past threads on this. So, once again, when AC has a true competitor, one with the same model, equipment, route structure, labour force size, etc, etc, etc, then we can have a meaningful chat. It's been a slice boys and girls. Fly safe.
P.S. Sorry boys, but my wife has very high standards. Squid and 2low, you guys are so fuckin "funny". Losers.

Squid · Post by **Squid** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:49 pm

Tony how was the pairing with your "parents" did you rub the corns on the crews feet or did you just go and pull your wire while you tried to stay on YYZ time.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:53 pm

Truth is, and I've said this a million times, we are comparing apples and oranges. I will not expand on this as you have all read my past threads on this. So, once again, when AC has a true competitor, one with the same model, equipment, route structure, labour force size, etc, etc, etc, then we can have a meaningful chat.

This is a poll, Tony. A vs. B. Enlighten us.. I must have missed the million times where you thought comparing WS to AC was apples to oranges? We both fly people, right? We both employ thousands of people, right? We're both in the game to make money, right? The discussion hasn't gotten sour so why not keep it going?

2low · Post by **2low** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:10 pm

Tony's just mad his fucking shitty company is losing.

Get over it sweety.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:38 am

tony, like many other AC'ers, haven't figured out yet that you DON'T have to have the same bad attitudes and airplanes in order to compete. Which is why, slowly and surely, their market share is being eroded away.

apples and oranges, yes, and I am damn glad we are. I hope it stays that way too!

Air Canada vs. Westjet

Air Canada vs Westjet - Which is the all around better airline?