ACPA-ALPA meeting

[KAG]

Tonny...
Yes you’ve found me out…I’ve deluded myself into believing WJ is the answer because my dreams of flying for the all mighty mother ship are dashed…Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

Until recently (a couple months back) I was bent that I didn't wait for AC, get called or whatever. It has been a series of events; attitudes and bullshit that has made me over the last year decide I think I would rather work for WJ. Yes I'm pissed AC didn't call, then again I'm also pissed I didn't take what’s her name to my high school prom...get where I'm going with this?

Maybe I should have spoken in proper tenths in my last post, I didn’t think it would confuse anyone.

On a serious note tonny, I know WJ isn't going to be perfect. Fact is I don’t usually buy into anything 100%. All I want is to go to work, make a decent wage, and have a good lifestyle in a relatively easygoing atmosphere. No drama, few politics, just enjoy my job, go home and enjoy life. So if by my enthusiasm you seem to take some kind of offense, then shit man don’t read my posts. Yes I’m excited about the prospects of working for the teal team, rolls reversed I‘m sure you’d feel the same way.
But don’t worry I’m not about to come on here and ram the koolaid down anyone’s throat and preach to the choir as it were.

Flame away.

[Localizer]

Disco ......

Hey .... I'm sorry I misread your comments. I felt a different take on what you were saying. I am totally in agreement that this kind of talk isn't going to help either side.

Loc

[tonysoprano]

Kag.
Follow your dreams and don't ever let the politics get to you. Unfortunately the AC politics have. You haven't even given the mainline a chance to call but you've already made up your mind. That tells you something. Go where your heart leads you, you won't regret it. Sorry for sounding harsh.

[The Hammer]

After reading this discussion, I hope you guys aren't allergic to latex cause I'm pretty sure Milton likes to wrap it up.

Reach for your ankles boys and girls

[whipline]

Tony, if I worked for AC and read your posts I would be embarrassed. Its great your proud of your job but for God's sake get your blinders off.

If KAG doesn't want to make 34,000 flying for JAZZ then good on him. If AC didn't think he was good enough for an interview/job then good on him. If he's tired of the BS between two idiot pilot groups then good on him. By the way whats your fetish about wide body airplanes tony? You often refer to them.

Best of luck KAG, I would have made the exact choices you have!! If WJ doesn't work out PM me your CV.

[tonysoprano]

Whipline.

If KAG doesn't want to make 34,000 flying for JAZZ then good on him. If AC didn't think he was good enough for an interview/job then good on him. If he's tired of the BS between two idiot pilot groups then good on him. By the way whats your fetish about wide body airplanes tony? You often refer to them.

Kag could make alot more than that at Jazz and even more at the mainline if he had really given it a chance. His point is he can't put aside the politics. It's not money or size of airplane. It's all about being happy. I'm not disagreeing with him. I started this thread with some possible good news for guys like KAG but of course the losers come out in numbers to hijack the good news and next thing you know it's a pissing match. I would put you in that category of misunderstanding what I write. I love widebodies. So what? It's what I happen to be doing for the moment. I have a choice in what I fly, that's one of many reasons I love where I work. I love c-150's. I love 737 NG's. If it flies, and I can make a living, great. Catch my drift? The one thing that sets me and 99% of AC guys apart from others is the ability to rise above the politics. What a terrible waste when you can't.

[KAG]

No worries tonny, hope I didn't come off half-cocked either, which I tend to do. I truly hope the GS works out and both party's can come away better off and there by regain some lost ground for our little industry.

As for jazz guys making claims about "stealing AC planes", not cool. Sure we can fly em cheaper, but really it's only hurting ourselves and putting more money in Miltys back pocket. If it meant me flying an EMJ for RJ wages or AC keeping em - I say AC keeps em. We’ve let pride and anger hurt each other long enough.

One thing I will say Tonny (I just read your last post) The money at jazz is one of the other reasons I'm leaving (aside from the politics). I knew what the pay was starting out, but I didn't know it would take 12 years to break 62K (guess I should have asked). and thats about how long it would take to go CPT. Long upgrade time, poor pay, there really isn't much financial reason to stay at Jazz as a new hire, and alot of us are realising that - IE why so many new hires are leaving for greener pastures. Money aside, jazz really is a great company to work for don't get me wrong. I really do enjoy this job.

[tonysoprano]

IMHO the right thing to do is for Jazz to ask for more money flying what they fly, not flying bigger planes for less money than anyone else. This does not help the industry, let alone AC and Jazz. But revenge can overpower common sense, it might seem. ACPA will not go for that, rest assured. Milton knows this.

[KAG]

IMHO the right thing to do is for Jazz to ask for more money flying what they fly, not flying bigger planes for less money than anyone else. This does not help the industry, let alone AC and Jazz. But revenge can overpower common sense, it might seem. ACPA will not go for that, rest assured. Milton knows this.

I totally agree!!!

[skyhigh]

At Jazz there is already a huge lineup waiting to jump ship. Money isn't everything, but its a BIG part of it. Until management realizes this, it will be constantly be a revolving door. It will not be a career airline for most. Yes we can wait for 2009, but if WJ calls, I'd be hard pressed to turn it down in hopes that it will turn around in 09.

Hey KAG if this job pans out, are you moving back to Cowtown?

[KAG]

Not sure yet. Planning on staying in YYZ for a bit, and just get a feel for the ports and commuting. Who knows I may shot for YHZ.

[Brick Head]

ACPA has made it abundantly clear, in its last newsletter on GS, that they will not entertain any solution that would adversely effect even the most junior mainline pilot.

ANY was in capital letters.

Jazz was spun off as a separate company under ACE. It is well known that ACE will likely cease to exist within a short while. I have never heard of two completely separate companies having a single seniority list. Have you?

Okay. What is ALPA's position on the most junior Jazz pilot. Or even the most senior ones who went through CCAA.

DH,

The point I was trying make is that these talks are likely not about a single list or single bargaining unit.

The talks are more likely limited to opening up the lines of communication, to prevent the company from manipulating us to our mutual detriment.

I think because people are throwing around the term "global solution" the expectation is that these talks are similar to the last ones. The objective is primarily the same but the tools disposable to the two parties is considerably different.

I only made the comment because I think everyone has put the horse way ahead of the cart. Unfortunately the silence of the two unions has created this situation. On the flip side every time they open their mouth on this issue, they get lobbied to death by factions within their own union. Silence has become a necessary evil for the process to have a chance.

[Dark Helmet]

ACPA has made it abundantly clear, in its last newsletter on GS, that they will not entertain any solution that would adversely effect even the most junior mainline pilot.

ANY was in capital letters.

Jazz was spun off as a separate company under ACE. It is well known that ACE will likely cease to exist within a short while. I have never heard of two completely separate companies having a single seniority list. Have you?

Okay. What is ALPA's position on the most junior Jazz pilot. Or even the most senior ones who went through CCAA.

DH,

The point I was trying make is that these talks are likely not about a single list or single bargaining unit.

The talks are more likely limited to opening up the lines of communication, to prevent the company from manipulating us to our mutual detriment.

I think because people are throwing around the term "global solution" the expectation is that these talks are similar to the last ones. The objective is primarily the same but the tools disposable to the two parties is considerably different.

I only made the comment because I think everyone has put the horse way ahead of the cart. Unfortunately the silence of the two unions has created this situation. On the flip side every time they open their mouth on this issue, they get lobbied to death by factions within their own union. Silence has become a necessary evil for the process to have a chance.

Brick head, I hear ya

Thrust set made a good point on one of his previous post, and that we should sit back and let the 2 groups work out an agreement that will enable us to bargain with management come 2009.

I agree with ya on the necessary silence

Cheers

[Johnny767]

I don't see how BOTL for Jazz is going to benefit Jazz pilots, Sounds like just a buffer for ACPA to have in case of layoffs, and to control what we can and can't fly.( I hope I am wrong when I say this)

Well...here lies the question you have to ask yourself. When Air Canada is hiring out of Cessna 150's (like they have in the past,) then what.

That 'line in the sand' just gets harder to cross.

Should the Jazz guys cut their losses now, or never?

ANYBODY at Jazz that thinks ACE will remove a Fleet Type, of 60 + Aircraft, is delusional.

Jazz MEC bargained the RJ wages down to 85K / year, just to screw Mainline.

Honestly guys that is pathetic and I'm sure most of you agree.

Find an ex CRA Pilot that came to Canadi>n under it's Flow through and ask them how their career has changed? They were very senior at CRA and came to the BOTL and...

.....never looked back.

[Glen Quagmire]

Johnny your tone isn't helping anyone’s cause; I sense an air of superiority. It simply undermines what M. Tamme and B. Shury and the rest are trying to accomplish. We know that both sides haven't been guilt free when it comes to shady negotiations in the past, in which I completely agree with you is "pathectic". Bottom line is we all want fair wages and a good quality of life, which in case you haven't figured out has been eroded largely due to the fact that our group is xenophobic beyond comprehension. Ironically we should have nothing to be xenophobic about considering we are on average all middle aged white males with a passion for flight and similar backgrounds.

No one should want improved job conditions at the expense of the other, that doesn't simply end with Jazz and AC but with Junior and Senior, Widebody and Narrowbody etc. Moving forward together is the only way, in my opinion to restore what has been lost. As far as I am concerned AO should drop the lawsuit, OAC guys should take the stickers off their flight bags and Nova guys should, well I don't know keep it to 12 drinks or less per layover.

Lastly the point that Jazz guys shouldn't even want to work at AC because if they did then they should have simply bypassed Jazz and waited for mainline is a joke. The regionals were always the largest feeder for mainline, it was almost natural to go from Metro to Nova then AC. For sore reason now Jazz is a bad move if you aspire to fly a heavy, not sure why that is.

Good luck to both unions, keep the entire group in mind and no doubt we will be thankful come 2009.

[tonysoprano]

Glen.
Good points. AC's best pilot investment lies in the Jazz roster. That's where the mainline should be hiring from, exclusively. However, being where we are today, it is virtually impossible for ACPA to sacrifice any mainline seniority even at the expense of a stronger group. It's not an air of superiority you're getting, it's one group protecting their interest against the other's. I fear there is still a group (and I know who they are) within the higher ranks at Jazz who are looking for some kind of "revenge". This will be a tricky one to achieve. I can only hope I am proven wrong.

[Johnny767]

Johnny your tone isn't helping anyone’s cause; I sense an air of superiority. It simply undermines what M. Tamme and B. Shury and the rest are trying to accomplish. We know that both sides haven't been guilt free when it comes to shady negotiations in the past, in which I completely agree with you is "pathectic". Bottom line is we all want fair wages and a good quality of life, which in case you haven't figured out has been eroded largely due to the fact that our group is xenophobic beyond comprehension. Ironically we should have nothing to be xenophobic about considering we are on average all middle aged white males with a passion for flight and similar backgrounds.

No one should want improved job conditions at the expense of the other, that doesn't simply end with Jazz and AC but with Junior and Senior, Widebody and Narrowbody etc. Moving forward together is the only way, in my opinion to restore what has been lost. As far as I am concerned AO should drop the lawsuit, OAC guys should take the stickers off their flight bags and Nova guys should, well I don't know keep it to 12 drinks or less per layover.

Lastly the point that Jazz guys shouldn't even want to work at AC because if they did then they should have simply bypassed Jazz and waited for mainline is a joke. The regionals were always the largest feeder for mainline, it was almost natural to go from Metro to Nova then AC. For sore reason now Jazz is a bad move if you aspire to fly a heavy, not sure why that is.

Good luck to both unions, keep the entire group in mind and no doubt we will be thankful come 2009.

Quite the contrary, I firmly believe a deal must be reached.

1. The Senior Jazz Pilots have to get over the position of moving up the
Mainline list.

2. ACPA has to get over the fear of a representation vote and the fact that there will be NOTHING in it for the Jazz guys.

Reality is, the hiring will continue and each day that passes puts more names on the Mainline list.

If you can somehow dispute those facts, I'm listening.

Do you honestly believe that Jazz management isn't complicit in limiting the numbers taken from Jazz?

[JazzJetDriver]

"The Senior Jazz Pilots have to get over the position of moving up the
Mainline list."

I can assure you that there are no senior Jazz types that have any such aspirations, or at least none that I know of.

[Glen Quagmire]

Tony

The superiority came from elsewhere, both groups have lowered the bar so to speak. Nowhere do I suggest any sacrificing be made, the most junior ACPA pilot should be as protected as the most senior. That being said Jazz guys shouldn't have to worry either. I am not interested in a solution that has either side sacrificing, we all know where that would lead, more hard feelings and awkward shuttle bus rides.

Anyhow perhaps what you suggest is a quality idea. Mainline hires only from Jazz. Any pilot wanting to work at mainline starts on a Dash and flows through. It would create a common bond between the two groups with no need of merging any lists.

I consider the "revenge" crowd a minority fringe group, same as the "no jets for Jazz" guys, problem is these minority groups often wield heavy influence. The only defense against the unreasonable is ridicule (Thomas Jefferson), so let's go on a huge ridicule campaign and get some things done.

“Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude.”
-William James

Cheers

[Dark Helmet]

I don't see how BOTL for Jazz is going to benefit Jazz pilots, Sounds like just a buffer for ACPA to have in case of layoffs, and to control what we can and can't fly.( I hope I am wrong when I say this)

Well...here lies the question you have to ask yourself. When Air Canada is hiring out of Cessna 150's (like they have in the past,) then what.

That 'line in the sand' just gets harder to cross.

Should the Jazz guys cut their losses now, or never?

Johnny I was not trying to imply that, ACPA should have to make any sacrifices for ALPA, if I rubbed you that way I do apologize.

Having said that.

Jazz should not have to make any sacrifices at the expense of mainline either. This is exactly what management wants. We should put our differences aside and come up with an agreement to present to management that will benefit both groups.

As a jr Jazz pilot, I put some of my concerns forward. For example Like I don't want be the first ones to be laid off when a downturn comes because I have "Air Canada Jazz" written on my Hat versus "Air Canada". Thrust set and Brick head were kind enough to answer to that and I am saitsfied with their answers.

Like I mentioned, when and if I want to go to mainline I will jump through the proper hoops like everyone else and cut MY losses that way.

Find an ex CRA Pilot that came to Canadi>n under it's Flow through and ask them how their career has changed? They were very senior at CRA and came to the BOTL and...

.....never looked back

I don't believe CAI descrimintated CRA guys the way AC is descrimintaing Jazz applicants now. Or hired 400 somewhat pilots off the street ahead of them too. But like I said that is another topic on its own.

Do you honestly believe that Jazz management isn't complicit in limiting the numbers taken from Jazz?

IMO Mainline hires people for mainline, Jazz management has nothing to do with that. Jazz just freezes their pilots not deny them employment with mainline.

Oh by the way, for the record, before anyones gets their panties in a bunch and start giving me the "if you wanted to fly for mainline you should have had holded out for mainline" speech. I am perfectly happy at Jazz, aside from the pay it is a great place to work. I have no regrets what so ever in coming here.

Cheers

[bcflyer]

Just out of curiousity, what did an RJ captain at AC make?

[RussD]

The facts are that Jazz undercut the wages on the RJ in order to scoop the remaining few Aircraft from Air Canada during CCAA!

JohnnyIDKJ:

That's not even close to having any resemblence to the facts. No wonder you seem to be so twisted if you believe that kind smoke that's been blown up your arse.

One party did indeed succeed in downbidding the other to aquire the RJ's. But that happenned in 1993 when gold ole HaulAss and Gary (don't Call me Jimmy Dean) cut a deal to fly the RJ's (that the regionals had ordered)at the mainline, for less than the ACR's were paying for a Dash 8, Throw in a 5% general wage roll back and a No jet scope clause (which provided the motivation for the mainline to reject the merger in favour of scope)sealed the deal. That particular act pretty much set the stage for the ensuing decade and a half of fun and games between the two groups.

FYI Jazz was already operating RJ's when CCAA came along. We didn't need to negotiate a rate for those A/C (alot of folks didn't even want em,,,,given their less than cherry condition when we did get them,,, ). You see JohnnyIDKJ, we don't negotiate over a/c types here. Just status and length of service.

But all of that is in the (apparantly completely distorted) past. We's all just tryin to git along now. What you ( and for that matter me and the .0001%) of the group that visit's this pig pen thinks,, is totally irrelevent.

[Johnny767]

Way to go Russ, you've lowered the converstion to name calling. I certainly hope you are not involved in the negotiations, a bit emotional today?

Truth be known, I'm pulling for the Jazz guys in this one, as I believe there are more advantages for them, than for A/C.

None of this will have any effect on my life.

I would love to see an open vote at Jazz for BOTL? No-bump, no-flush, keep your DOH for travel etc. Never earn less than you do today;

eg. Stay as an RJ Captain, at the applicable rate of pay, until you elect to bid something different.

..pretty simple.

[KAG]

IMHO, BOTL is acceptable and is more than likely what we'll get if this goes through. Think about it - Any Jazz guy that wants to move up to some heavier iron could do it without jumping through all these hoops. Sure it may seen unfair to have 7 years at Jazz and your getting the left over’s from the AC new hires, but isn't that still better then nothing? Worst case you stay on a Jazz machine, keep your good sched, and hope your skipper wants the EMJ, you still end up better off with more movement.

Now for travel perks - DOH, and layoffs should also be DOH (how ever it was before). And all future new hires would then have to go through the Jazz system and work there way up to mainline, that would be the only fair way of doing it. May take some getting used to but in time it would become the expected progression.

[Dockjock]

Exclusive hiring from Jazz would change the landscape of the industry in Canada dramatically.
A balance of hiring from Jazz and off the street is a better option as it brings in the military, expat, and charter contingent into the hiring mix (status quo). If the only entry level job in the ACE family was DH8 F/O the company might as well just follow the path to its logical conclution, turn Seneca College into a cadet program and hire people right out of high school.