ACPA-ALPA meeting

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:01 am

Dockjock The reason I say no more hiring off the street is not a slight in anyway against OTS guys (I have many good friends who were hired that way), it is if we were one big "list" (with two different unions divided at the EMJ with common bidding ability) the only fair way is if you want to work at AC you go through Jazz. Why would Jazz guys say yes to GS and agree to BOTL and wait their turns to jump onto say the A320, only to have someone jump ahead of them OTS? The GS would quickly fall and then we would be back at square 1. IMHO anyway.

In a union enviroment, DOH is gospel. If were one list, wouldn't a new hire go to the bottom of it? That would be the Jazz end. The question is how would that work with two unions...

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:10 am

Dockjock wrote:Exclusive hiring from Jazz would change the landscape of the industry in Canada dramatically.
A balance of hiring from Jazz and off the street is a better option as it brings in the military, expat, and charter contingent into the hiring mix (status quo). If the only entry level job in the ACE family was DH8 F/O the company might as well just follow the path to its logical conclution, turn Seneca College into a cadet program and hire people right out of high school.

I agree Dockjock, however, it isn't our problem. We need to address our own problems. The wages for Airline Pilots has taken such a @#it kicking we need to collectively fix it.

The fact that a Military Pilot has to start in the right seat of an RJ or Dash 8, to retire on a 777, does not break my heart. He will be thankful if we can fix the pay issue.

An EMB Captain make less money than a 737 or DC9 Captain did 20 years ago.

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:20 am

Dockjock wrote:Exclusive hiring from Jazz would change the landscape of the industry in Canada dramatically.
A balance of hiring from Jazz and off the street is a better option as it brings in the military, expat, and charter contingent into the hiring mix (status quo). If the only entry level job in the ACE family was DH8 F/O the company might as well just follow the path to its logical conclution, turn Seneca College into a cadet program and hire people right out of high school.

Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't that is how things were say 8 years ago.

I flew with a Captain here at Jazz and he mentioned that back in the late 90's AC was hiring 100% out of the regionals. He also mentioned that guys that were coming on to the regionals were getting upgrades in about an year, due to such good movement. Oh yeah and the regionals were not hiring out of college either.

767 has a good point, Who cares where you start, if the conditions are good enough on both sides, people should not have any problems coming to Jazz first and then work their way up IMHO.

Again I hope everything work out well come 09.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:33 am

Darkhelmet...I think you are mistaken...in the late '90s, AC was hiring from everywhere, not just regionals....Air Georgian, FlightExec, Knighthawk, etc...

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:55 pm

My point wasn't how this would affect current AC or Jazz pilots. But it places a whole lot of jeopardy onto future pilots in the industry. There are already precious few companies to work for. Don't forget a decade ago one's array of airline prospects included Air Nova, Air Ontario, Inter Canadien, Canadian Regional, Air BC, Air Canada, Canadian, and (for argument's sake) Westjet even though it was tiny at the time. Now through consolidation it is reduced to AC, WJ, and Jazz, (ignoring of course the charter operators of which there seemingly will always be 2 or 3). And now the proposal is to reduce AC and Jazz to 1? Pretty slim chances for the up-and-comers. The point I suppose is the # of jobs is the same, or perhaps more even, but the options are fewer.
Concentrating on improving profitability and justifying improved wages is better to me than artificially trying to bludgeon the business into giving us what we want. A market-based solution will always be preferable and to me the "global solution" is a blunt, force based, union tactic that will have many unintended (negative) consequences.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:02 pm

Dockjock wrote: to me the "global solution" is a blunt, force based, union tactic that will have many unintended (negative) consequences.

What sort of consequences are you thinking about? The company has whipsawed the two factions back and forth to drive down wages. By getting together in some way, we will be ensuring that doesn't happen again in 2009.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:15 pm

Something will sure be done before 2009. It's now or never.The whole thing will involve a give and take from both sides. Some will be happy, others are never happy. Bottom line is Milton will be facing ONE group. The end result, a united workforce where if one strikes, so does the other. Time for management to stop waisting money and give it back to it's most valuable asset, the employees. If things don't go this way, we can all just build that fence a little higher and keep bitching.

thrust set · Post by **thrust set** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:07 pm

It's funny both sides have been down this road many times with trying to engage in talks to join as one united group. Everytime we are not on the same page one group "lays down it's cards and comes out with a flush". Lets not all forget that originally the CRJ 100's were going to be on Air Nova's property. What happened? What did we as one half of a divided group do to acquire those airframes ? During CCAA what slight of hand trick did Calin do with signing two conflicting contracts? What happened? How much time, effort, and money do we have to give up on both sides to protect each others scope clauses.

I personally would like to see pilots in our ACE family taken care of. And by that I mean AC mainline and Jazz. Well what happens to the pilots off the street you say. Well let them apply, interview and ask them, "Will you be happy on a Dash, CRJ, EMB, Airbus or maybe relief on a 767 340 777?" Do you really think someone will say, " I'll take the Bus and the 767 but not the CRJ or please not the Dash!"

Maybe some of our higher time pilots and expats around the world might pass but should we not be worrying about who matters here.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:06 pm

All this concern about Ex-pats, military and OTS guys having to fly a dash BOO HOO!!! I could give a rats fat ass about what they think. The fact is, the whipsawing has to stop or everyone hired wether its an EMB or dash will be making peanuts. Hell , we already are.

Join up the 2 sides and start protecting what we have!!!

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:16 pm

Bottom line is Milton will be facing ONE group. The end result, a united workforce where if one strikes, so does the other. Time for management to stop waisting money and giving it back to it's most valuable asset, the employees. If things don't go this way, we can all just build that fence a little higher and keep bitching.

Nothing could be better if the "group" were to be united, however I think we are a long way off from that. There is not much point discussing the logistics of a common list or anything to that effect. The main focus of GS at this point is common bargaining strategies, to avert the whipsaw, at least that is how I have understood it to be. As can be seen by the numerous posts, getting to some sort of agreement to create a common list is not going to be easy, nor is it likely to produce any concrete results.

As for unity and striking... well don't hold your breath. Milton is not the least bit worried about that... chances are he will be long gone by then anyways. As for whoever happens to be at the helm, they have no worries, as all they will do is beg the Feds to legislate strikers back to work - and the Feds will be more than happy to oblige.

Might be worth looking into more effective ways of showing our discontent. If strking proves to be short lived.

Airband · Post by **Airband** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:48 am

KAG wrote:And all future new hires would then have to go through the Jazz system and work there way up to mainline, that would be the only fair way of doing it.

...and the incentive or perceived advantage for AC mgmt to sign-off on such an arrangement woud be?

Stick-Shaker · Post by **Stick-Shaker** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:48 am

Almost certainly this is going to be BOTL result. Fair or not (depending on your perspective). ACPA wouldn't even be talking unless this was a good deal for them. My perspective.

Johnny767 · Post by **Johnny767** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:44 am

Stick-Shaker wrote:Almost certainly this is going to be BOTL result. Fair or not (depending on your perspective). ACPA wouldn't even be talking unless this was a good deal for them. My perspective.

You are correct, ACPA will never agree to anything else. Is it fair (in a perfect world) absolutely not. The Jazz MEC will hopefully be looking for other avenues to make the deal palatable?

Will the Xenophobes at ACPA get over their fear of a Representation vote? .....I personally doubt it.

What about your DOH for travel.

Remember ACPA tried to go after the CRA boys who retained their DOH for travel.

I still think it's a long shot but wish the Jazz guys the best.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:57 am

What about your DOH for travel.

Remember ACPA tried to go after the CRA boys who retained their DOH for travel.

Jazz already have this.
Re the CRA boys, I think they got a pretty fair award regardless of how they travel.

Will the Xenophobes at ACPA get over their fear of a Representation vote? .....I personally doubt it.

Regarding the rep vote, there doesn't even have to be one. Agreements could be signed while maintaining two separate groups. I suppose you think it's ok for ACPA to just hand over power but not ALPA? BOTL flowthrough is just one barganing tool amongst others. I'm willing to bet there will be an agreement.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:19 am

tonysoprano wrote:
What about your DOH for travel.

Remember ACPA tried to go after the CRA boys who retained their DOH for travel.

Jazz already have this.
Re the CRA boys, I think they got a pretty fair award regardless of how they travel.

I think you guys may be talking about 2 different situations here. Yes Jazz guys that STAY at Jazz have their DOH for travel. However if you get hired by AC via the current LOU18 you give up your Jazz travel date and it is reset to your hire date at AC. (example. I currently have a travel date of 2000, when I am unfrozen at Jazz and allowed to go to AC, my travel date will become Aug 2006)

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:19 pm

Disco Stu wrote:
socrates wrote:Hey KAG I heard the same thing, to bad the AC guys think they will have the embraers forever so they will never agree to it.

Ahh well I guess we will just end up with them in 2009 and guys at Jazz will be able to get upgraded with 1 year seniority instead of the guys at AC getting an upgrade in one year.

The company played the cards just right get a judge to award the embraers to AC so it looks like they had nothing to do with it, use them as a barganning tool to keep the unions from joining forces then send them to jazz in 2009 and then everyone loses.
It's attitudes like this that will result in you guys winning the race to the bottom.

Didn't take you long to get brainwashed by the garbage the bitter senior members of your union spew.

The day I sit right seat to YOU on an AIR CANADA plane is the day I slit my wrists.

Why can't you guys who go to Jazz be happy you are there. No one forced you to go there. If you wanted to fly for mainline, then maybe you shouldn't have gone to Jazz.

But please, continue telling me about how the Jazz guys are going to @#$! the mainline guys in 2009 by stealing their airplanes.

Because that's a really positive thing for the whole industry.

Sorry I took so long to get back Stu.

First off I would of thought my comment would of stirred the pot a little more but I guess not.

I actually agree with bottom of the list but the line has to be drawn soon AC is hiring guys like crazy and every month is another 20 ahead of me that don't have to be.

I want to hear from the AC guys though what do they think of drawing the line soon so all the new hires in the total system would go to the bottom of the jazz list?

By the way Stu if global solutions are not reached by 2009 do you think ALPA is just gonna sit there and make sure you guys get more regional jets and regional flying in addition to 36 more widebodies and possibly more..... I don't think so.

If my sources are correct was it not ACPA who walked away from the bargaining table last time.

But anyways thats all in the past and we are all way to junior at both companys to even argue about stuff like this.

I just want to retire at 60 in the left seat of a 777 making $250 000 + a year like everyone else.

But if it ends up being a dash 8 making $120 000 + so be it, I never complained once about this company, and I have absolutely no regrets about coming here.

SouthIsland · Post by **SouthIsland** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:13 pm

Honestly folks, this is why aviation has turned to shit. We've really lost sight of the big picture. We're now flying larger aircraft for less money than ever before! The pay at Jazz is embarassing, and to think we might one day be flying an Embraer for 32K a year makes me feel ill! I hope both sides can set their egos aside for 2 minutes and come up with a unified agreement that will benefit everyone. This constant bickering between unions only serves to degrade our profession further and canadian pilots as a whole suffer.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:59 pm

... and is making uncle Milty giggle.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:26 pm

Wasn't there something about the Embraer mentioned in the Global Solution talks???

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:03 pm

I don't know why there is such a big deal over these Embraer's ... I'd rather see more 705's and some new Q400's before the Embryo ...

Anyways ... let the circus continue ...

Loc

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:39 pm

I would guess that most customers would rather fly in the Emb than the 705. Yes the 705 is nice from a pilots perspective but its still a narrow fuselage, half the business travellers don't have overhead bins and it has troubles with not being able to take everyones bags on occasion.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:17 am

However if you get hired by AC via the current LOU18 you give up your Jazz travel date and it is reset to your hire date at AC. (example. I currently have a travel date of 2000, when I am unfrozen at Jazz and allowed to go to AC, my travel date will become Aug 2006)

Yes, that is what is "CURRENTLY" happening. But that may not happen after a new Global Solution is worked out.

I'd like to see a new agreement that puts all JAZZ pilots on the bottom of the AC list with their date of hire for vacation and travel ( ala CRA) and allows them stay at JAZZ as long as they like. Maybe even negotiate a grandfather clause for the ex Connector/JAZZ pilots currently at AC.

"Off The Street" new hires would go to JAZZ or AC, but at the bottom of the new list. (bottom of the bottom). There would only be one new list effectively for both Jazz and AC. Jazz pilots could use their seniority to move to AC whenever they feel the timing is right. They would take with them their DOH and maybe even their years of service for the pay levels.

Regarding the rep vote, there doesn't even have to be one. Agreements could be signed while maintaining two separate groups. I suppose you think it's ok for ACPA to just hand over power but not ALPA? BOTL flowthrough is just one bargaining tool amongst others. I'm willing to bet there will be an agreement.

I think for this agreement to stick, or have any teeth, you will need to have one bargaining agent. That will have to be one of the hurdles to cross. We could have an agreement in principal and then implement it in 2009 when both JAZZ and AC contracts are open at the same time.

...and the incentive or perceived advantage for AC mgmt to sign-off on such an arrangement would be?

I believe AC management would have no choice because this is a labour issue. It will be covered under “Common Employer” because both sides are in agreement. The alternative to the agreement would be full merger of Jazz and AC.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:45 pm

Global Solution or not, in the end, the reality will be that Air Canada decides who flies their airplanes and who doesn't. I would like to see the GS happen but sadly, it is to the companies advantage that it doesn't.

It will take a very united front from the pilot groups to pull it off and I don't see ACPA making the required sacrifices. ie representation vote. IMHO, the vote has to happen.

socrates · Post by **socrates** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:07 pm

Its nice to hear from you on this one Jaques I would of thought your reply to the matter would of come sooner.

The best scenario that I have heard so far is 2 lists

Jazz List

ALPA on the top and ACPA on the bottom used for Jazz's aircraft

Air Canada List
ACPA on the top and ALPA on the bottom used for Air Canadas' aircraft

With all new hires going on to a third list.

With this scenario all pilots would be protected at both companys.

So I have 2 questions for the more senior guys around here...

Is this not a fair solution for both sides?

I have an idea of what representation vote is, but can someone please clarify.

Glen Quagmire · Post by **Glen Quagmire** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Meaning a vote as to who will represent the new group, ACPA, ALPA, NAMBLA etc.