Filling the Void in Eastern Canada.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:59 pm

Maybe some of the guys who have been around longer can comment.

There are numerous runs and destinations currently not being serviced by anyone, or at least not being serviced heavily.

I was toying with the idea of someone opening another Dash-8 service in Atlantic/Eastern Canada.

From what I was told (I was getting in the biz when Air Atlantic got out) was that they, (Air Atlantic) did pretty well, and it was just a pissing match gone arwy between Ken Rowe and Canadian, as to why they shutdown, I'm sure there's more to that.

Having been in the business in many different facets and in different locations I know there's a void open enough for at least a 5-6 aircraft operation. Speaking of something 50-70 seats in size. With a lot of the smaller communities booming these days (YDF for example amongst others) There is a market for someone to get into with the right type of equipment and set-up.

IMO a low cost low frills Dash-8 set-up would do quite well on the right routes. The Q of course would be the weapon of choice.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts? Before someone from Ontario or Alberta says no-one lives here, I'd like to hear comments from people who have either worked around this part of the country, and/or live here as to their thoughts.

CanJet had great load factors, but the airplane just didn't fit in the Atlantic Canadian market like it did on the HZ-YZ runs and the like.

Nightshiftzombie · Post by **Nightshiftzombie** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:53 am

Can't speak to the Nfld side, but you can drive from allmost anywhere in the Maritimes to just about any place else in about 4 hours. (I'm talking the bigger cities) When you figure an hour worth of dicking around in an airport, flying usually isn't worth the hassle.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:58 am

The local market is thin. Long haul flow within Canada is thin. YHZ and YYT being the only exceptions. Outside of that, YSJ and YFC might work with a turboprop if you can keep the costs down. There's just not enough traffic willing to pay airfares+tax+dep fees+++ to make air travel worthwhile.

Until the economy really booms and the region grows, it's too slim to start up. Better off running a clapped out 37 out of YYZ to Florida on charters, despite all the competition.

Just my $.02

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:19 pm

This is what people percieve from the outside, but myself personally have seen the load numbers on various airlines in the past. Given the amount they were willing to pay then, I assume the loads would be the same now or greater, and for less money someone could make money with a Q400 on the same routings, IMO anyway.

However, there are obviously people up there smarter than me but still, it seems to me the airlines, and business never thinks of operating down here... frustrating to the industry here, and its people.

Thanks for the comments!

flyin' fish · Post by **flyin' fish** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:51 pm

Don't forget Deer Lake. That little town has always shown fantastic loads year 'round and little competition to the mainland. The YYZ-YDF run was a success for CanJet, even management can't deny that the company made money on that route. YYT was virtually impossible to get out of during the summer for all airlines. NFLD is defintiely viable for more aircraft. Hopefully WestJet and Air Canada will pick up the frequency in the near future.

Troubleshot · Post by **Troubleshot** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:05 pm

I think your bang on with your idea as far as connecting NFLD to the rest of the Maritimes with a smaller type aircraft...where I do see some problems is with the lack of route networking to YYZ, a Dash 8 simply would not cut it and if you don't service YYZ I think you would have load factor issues on some routes outta Newfoundland... but I could be wrong.

I'd work for ya though

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:29 am

flyin' fish wrote:Don't forget Deer Lake. That little town has always shown fantastic loads year 'round and little competition to the mainland. The YYZ-YDF run was a success for CanJet, even management can't deny that the company made money on that route. YYT was virtually impossible to get out of during the summer for all airlines. NFLD is defintiely viable for more aircraft. Hopefully WestJet and Air Canada will pick up the frequency in the near future.

I notice Air Canada flies a A319 in there once and a while if not daily?

Also Jazz has a couple of flights from YHZ, I have also heard that YDF is booming pretty quick, at the obivious expense of YDF... kinda like YQM and YFC

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:48 am

It would be interesting to really understand the market there today. Would a 19 seater with frequency be good? Would long haul LCC to Florida in the winter and across Canada in the summer work? You really need to know what the industrys are that have reqgular business travel and to where. Is there much intra maritime/provincial travel and if so, would smaller gauge/more frequency be the opportunity?

It's been tried and failed in the past. You'd really need to understand the market very well and find the right airplane at the right cost to make it work. And...there could be creative ways of doing it: you buy and crew the airplane and get a major travel agency chain to market/overbrand and sell your flights. They pay you fixed, they assume the risk. They bring a distribution network to the table with many corporate accounts. You bring them the fully fueled and crewed airplane.

I still think it's slim pickings. Buy a hovercraft.

flyin' fish · Post by **flyin' fish** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:16 am

invertedattitude wrote:
flyin' fish wrote:Don't forget Deer Lake. That little town has always shown fantastic loads year 'round and little competition to the mainland. The YYZ-YDF run was a success for CanJet, even management can't deny that the company made money on that route. YYT was virtually impossible to get out of during the summer for all airlines. NFLD is defintiely viable for more aircraft. Hopefully WestJet and Air Canada will pick up the frequency in the near future.
I notice Air Canada flies a A319 in there once and a while if not daily?

Also Jazz has a couple of flights from YHZ, I have also heard that YDF is booming pretty quick, at the obivious expense of YDF... kinda like YQM and YFC

Air Canada uses a 319 or a Jazz RJ out of Montreal to Deer Lake. I don't think there's a Deer Lake - Toronto non-stop flight. You have to connect in YHZ. Personally, I think there should be direct flights from Fort Mac to YDF. There's already one for YYT.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:23 am

flyin' fish wrote:
invertedattitude wrote:
flyin' fish wrote:Don't forget Deer Lake. That little town has always shown fantastic loads year 'round and little competition to the mainland. The YYZ-YDF run was a success for CanJet, even management can't deny that the company made money on that route. YYT was virtually impossible to get out of during the summer for all airlines. NFLD is defintiely viable for more aircraft. Hopefully WestJet and Air Canada will pick up the frequency in the near future.
I notice Air Canada flies a A319 in there once and a while if not daily?

Also Jazz has a couple of flights from YHZ, I have also heard that YDF is booming pretty quick, at the obivious expense of YDF... kinda like YQM and YFC
Air Canada uses a 319 or a Jazz RJ out of Montreal to Deer Lake. I don't think there's a Deer Lake - Toronto non-stop flight. You have to connect in YHZ. Personally, I think there should be direct flights from Fort Mac to YDF. There's already one for YYT.

YQM-YMM too via Empress (Canadian North)

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:42 am

New routes announced for eastern Canada. Earlier today, we introduced non-stop service on three new routes for Atlantic Canada, connecting Halifax and New York City, Deer Lake, NL, and Toronto, and Halifax and Edmonton. The new daily flights will commence this spring.

“We are delighted to offer the convenience of these additional non-stop flights to travellers flying to and from Eastern Canada, including those who wish to connect with our expansive global network,” said Daniel Shurz, Vice President, Network Planning. “The introduction of daily, year-round service April 1 between Halifax and LaGuardia will facilitate travel between the Atlantic provinces and the great destination of New York City. Starting May 4, Air Canada will further enhance service in western Newfoundland by offering the only daily non-stop service year-round between Deer Lake and Toronto. Finally, on June 15, Air Canada will begin seasonal daily service between Halifax and Edmonton, complementing our existing Halifax-Calgary service. The Edmonton service will operate until September 16.”

The Halifax-New York, LaGuardia service will be operated by Air Canada Jazz using a 50-seat Bombardier CRJ regional aircraft. Flights will depart Halifax at 11:45 a.m. and arrive in New York at 12:30 p.m. They will leave New York at 1 p.m. and arrive in Halifax at 3:40 p.m.

The Deer Lake-Toronto service will be operated by Air Canada using a 120-seat Airbus A319, featuring Executive Class service. Flights will depart Toronto at 2:55 p.m. and arrive in Deer Lake at 7:05 p.m. They will leave Deer Lake at 7:55 p.m. and arrive in Toronto at 9:18 p.m. The new route will complement existing daily year-round service from Deer Lake to Montreal and Halifax.

The Halifax-Edmonton service will also be operated by Air Canada using an Airbus A319. Flights will depart Edmonton at 10:30 p.m. and arrive at Halifax at 6:10 a.m. They will leave Halifax at 8:10 a.m. and arrive at Edmonton at 10:30 a.m.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:14 am

Well, Porter's got 10 Q400 options in addition to the 10 firm if someone wants to persuade Don Carty and Bob Deluce to set up a base on their AOC out east...

EastCoaster · Post by **EastCoaster** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:31 am

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:35 pm

I can't let anymore out on this but I can tell you that a CanJet entry back into the domestic end of things, while it may seem unlikely right now, would spell an end to the new startup. Guess we'll see what happens.

Sounds like a winner already.

captain thicknjuicy · Post by **captain thicknjuicy** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:02 am

CanJet............

V2 · Post by V2 » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:26 am

i've seen yqy-yhz flights with only 4 or so ppl on board, plus with jazz already out there and not much in the line of new routes, best to choose the right aircraft for the job

yycguy · Post by **yycguy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:21 am

You won't be the first to try and build a new Air Altantic...

Provincial Airlines has tried for years to make a sked service from Nfld to Halifax work, but the high load factors are seasonal.

Prince Edward Air worked hard at making YYG - YHZ work as a feeder into CanJet, but it too was sporadic with loads and eventually failed.

There was an upstart airline out of Charlo NB (an old Air Atlantic hotspot) headed for YUL and YYZ, a few years ago (planes and pilots were from Skylink Express). Rumor was that they had very high reservations and full loads planned for the summer months but they burnt through their operating budget in the fall and winter and the bank shut them down before the summer arrived.

Some charter companies do rather well out east, but it's hard to compete with the airlines for pricing on any scheduled service.