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skyscraper · Post by **skyscraper** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:11 am

Hello all,

I was just wondering. Say someone is applying for a job flying at some company who requires 500 hours. What is to stop a pilot with 250 hours from writing 500 hours TT in his or her logbook to get a job with the company? Does this occur? I ask because it struck me one day that someone with low time could do that and potentially get away with sprucing up the logbook with another 250 hours of which was never really flown, and nobody would ever really know?

How does it work with employers who hire a pilot that maintains the hours needed to fly for their company? Do they check the logbooks and make sure the hours are certified? Curious to know how that system works.

Dick · Post by **Dick** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:05 am

Sometimes people do it and get away with it, sometimes people do it and get caught. It's kind of like robbing a bank, you do it and hope for the best. If you get caught, you live with the consequences. If you don't get caught, you live with your conscience. And remember, karma has a long memery.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:31 am

I'm on my 5th flying job, as well as being offered a few others. And never has anyone asked to see my logbook, although if your hours and experience don't seem to go together someone could ask. Really though, there isn't much difference between 250 and 500.

Don't do it though, dishonesty will always catch up with you one way or another.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:35 am

between 250 and 500, there is little of a difference. Once you're being checked out on the airplane, a good pilot will know the difference and the level that you're at.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:53 am

Shit you want the job for AC you could lie about 3000 hours...

The point of lying in your book isn't about getting caught or found out...

It's about not CRASHING...

Cause when you do crash insurance will start looking into your logbook and thats when the companies 500TT pilot liability goes out in smoke and you now owe the company a new aircraft, you're probably going to jail and a bunch of other shit....

So if you do pad your log book, and ofcourse it happens, we've got "padding the logbook" coined, when you are going to crash make sure you die.... Because the repercussions will not be pretty...

And if you do make it out alive, do you "fix" your book when you get a new job somewhere else???

Do you keep living said lie? Now since you still have those free hours, and you're with air operator #2, and you crash again insurance starts looking and again the new company that wanted 1000 hours, hired you when in fact you only had 800, what do you think they'll do...

[if you erase the faked hours, the new CP might wonder why and how you were hired with below the last op's hour minimums and he'll call them, so you may never be able to revert back to the original hours, so you'll be stuck living this lie and we've had nazi's in Canada that were here for 40 years, and they were eventually caught and deported, lies catch up to you]

But people cheat insurance companies, and they don't get caught, so the insurance company won't catch on....

This isn't a moral issue, it's a legal issue and not beforehand but an after the fact type thing... And when you screw up, it will haunt you....

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:00 am

Here is one for you.

Okay say you fudge your logbook to get you that 500 hour job. You spend a couple of years building up your time, now you write your ATPL. You have to take your book into to transport. They will go through it (they kept mine for about a week) but they may not catch it, who knows. Or say you get an interview with the airlines. Again they will ask you to bring your logbook in the interview. Okay they may not look at it or catch it. but you never know.....

Padding your book may get you the job, but it may screw you over later on, so you gotta ask yourself is it worth it?

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:23 am

From what I know the minimums companies set are typically set for what insurance they are holding outside of that they pick a number that they feel will give them a pretty good measure of a pilot for what type of equipment/operations they are running after that it is your attitude.

If you have an accident the insurance company will likely have a look at the pilots operating the machine on the day and thats when you could get into trouble.....my thoughts....

ATPL is something entirely different.....I know some guys that have two sets of log books.....not saying its right...but sometimes if you are a seasonal flyer...well we will leave it there.....

harveymushman · Post by **harveymushman** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:06 am

just my opinion but during the time that a pilot goes from 250 to 500 hours, if you are flying 703 or something like that, you learn a lot so would you rather fly like an okay 250 hour guy or a very poor 500 hour guy? 250 hours dousnt seem like much when you have thousands of hours but when it doubles your total time?

HM

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:26 am

Well, to any one thinking of doing this to get their first job: the industry is finally picking up in our favour - do NOT screw this up for any of us that actually do stuff legally and morally right.
I too, know of a padder and a liar, one who has felt the consequences of their decision to lie. One has not.
So i was hired once with less than the required minimums - the employer knew this but had been seting aside the 'mins' for years in order to hire for attitude and train for skill but a 'higher up' started enforcing those old mins after i had been hired.... Guess what, i was given an exemption to keep my job - why? luck? perhaps, or honesty. I went flying with the 'enforcer' and he said i was OK, that i would be granted an exception. It all worked out, and i didn't have to lie.
As other posters have said, this will all come out in the wash when (if) you have an accident or incident - then you are screwed, and so is everyone else behind you.
Don't do it.
i will beat you.

I also have not had my logbooks really scutinized by any employer, but i haven't anything to hide if they chose to do so.

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:37 am

If you like living a lie and waiting for the hammer to fall do it. If you like lying to your friends and fellow pilots along with your employer, do it. Not recommended!

Vector2ILS · Post by **Vector2ILS** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:50 am

Yeah definetly not a good idea. It is likely to raise eyebrows when you drop your logbook off to TC for your ATPL.
Plus, like it was said before, don't screw your buddies over...

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:55 am

Here is another one.

Ok, you lie and fudge your book to 500 hours and get the job. A year later you have 1500 hours. All the sudden a better job pops up but you need 2000 hours minimum....now what? You fudge your book again....heck it worked last time didn't it?

Like I said not worth it!

Fly safe

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:04 am

This does not need a really long explanation or examples.

It is dishonest. It is wrong.

that you would even contemplate it tells alot about your character.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:56 am

I also believe it is a criminal offence to "...knowingly falsify a logbook..."

There is nothing to stop you from applying anyway - Xsbank's Number One Rule of Job Hunting: Apply For Everything You Want Not What You Think You Can Get. Things are hopping - get looking.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:57 am

Who was it that was adding .1 to every trip they did in a twin otter not to long ago? Anyone remember what happened to him? TC got the logbooks for his A licence... Shortly after he was out of a job.. and said licence.. Not such a bright idea

It's morally wrong, it's legally wrong and it's also unfair to all of those out their slogging around doing the right thing and biding their time.

Now.. I've personally never had anyone look through my logbook, but if they did I won't worry as I've done nothing wrong.

But now.. with the computer based logbooks.. who's to say you couldn't fiddle something up nicely for finding that job that requires a bit more time then you have and just a quick swipe to erase the false entries when it comes time for A-licence? One of the many reasons the electronic logbook doesn't sit right with me..

Strega · Post by **Strega** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:01 pm

[
I too, know of a padder and a liar, one who has felt the consequences of their decision to lie. One has not.
.[/quote]

sometimes imoan when I hear about things like that

skyscraper · Post by **skyscraper** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:14 pm

trey kule wrote:This does not need a really long explanation or examples.

It is dishonest. It is wrong.

that you would even contemplate it tells alot about your character.

Thanks for the posts guys. I just want to clear up one very important thing. I didnt ask this question because I was thinking about doing it. I asked it because I was curious how it worked and if people can get away with it so easily. I mean 250-500 isnt that big of a difference really. I was never contemplating doing it, I never said I was either. So before you think I'm pondering such an act, read the first post and you'll know why I asked.

It was just out of curiosity. I dont even have any of my licenses yet. I was just wondering what would stop someone from 'padding' 250 to 500.

Thanks all!

TTJJ · Post by **TTJJ** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:43 pm

October 1, 1985.
I was sitting quietly in the TC office in Calgary watching an inspector go through my paper work for my ATP. (ATR at the time).

He was an old guy who had been an instructor during WW II.

He flipped randomly to a place in my log book, looked up the registration, phoned the company asking them how long was that flight and where it had flown and by whom.

He did that twice.
I scared the s--- out of me even though I knew that the log book was correct.

He closed the log book and politely, even elegantly, returned it to me. Giving me a Grand-fatherly look he said, “Son, I can’t guarantee that the hours in your log book are correct. However, if you ever have an accident one day I CAN guarantee you that I will find out if you lied. You have just seen how easy it is.
Son, don’t ever lie in your log book. It’s more than just paper. That’s you in there. It isn’t worth it.”

That is a direct quote, word for word from 21.5 years ago. It made quite the impression on me.

Take it for what it is worth.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:48 pm

Doesn't someone have to sign off agreeing that you've flown your hours? Or is it all left up to the trust system?

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:52 pm

Widow wrote:Doesn't someone have to sign off agreeing that you've flown your hours? Or is it all left up to the trust system?

You don't HAVE to have any signatures in there... but I've made a point of having them signed off as correct by my employers.. Makes it easier for everyone.. and makes me feel a bit better knowing someone else has confirmed that I haven't screwed it up or fudged numbers somehow.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:04 pm

widow a personal log book is only a legal document when you present it to the regulator for proof of time for a license, type rating, endorsement or proof of recency. Or to an insurance company for insurance coverage.

Those recorded times are a statement that you have in fact flown what you logged.

Any other time you log in your personal log is not a legal requirement but " your " statement as to what you flew so if you exagerate the time by padding or claim time you never flew and do not use it as proof of time for TCCA requirements or proof of time for isurance coverage your personal log is just another piece of fiction you can treasure.

Hint, the insurance companys are far more to worry about than TC.

Hope that helps.

A lot of older pilots just quit keeping a personal log because they get so far behind they just finally decide not to bother.

One of my wifes kept mine and I just never bothered to keep one since then.

Cat.

g5 · Post by g5 » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:06 pm

i think parker penning is like masturbation, any guy who says they haven't done it is lying. i also think that you should get a crayon and write a few type ratings on your license to make yourself that much more employable.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:14 pm

" I think parker penning is like masturbation, any guy who says they haven't done it is lying. i also think that you should get a crayon and write a few type ratings on your license to make yourself that much more employable. "

Can you be a little more specific with that broad statement?

Are you suggesting that all of us have logged time in our log books that are false and were not flown/

Or are you saying all of us have masterbated?

Cat

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:17 pm

g5 wrote:i think parker penning is like masturbation, any guy who says they haven't done it is lying.

Boy that's encouraging. But I don't believe it. You don't have to be a non-masturbator to be ethical.

electraguy · Post by **electraguy** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:42 pm

G5

Speak for yourslef G5 every hour in my logbook is one I have flown. I can't imagine "faking" an entry in my logbook and I know plenty of pliots who have never and would never do that. Your log book is a legal document, and I would not wanna be the guy who got nailed later on in there career for that one.

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