bobcaygeon wrote:It's for real, Michel Chiasson, VP of flight ops at Jazz, acknowledged it yesterday on a company website. 8 newhires right of school but didn't say which schools.
ya know, i am still not really sure i want airlines now and have doubts i ever will and respect anyone who knows that airline is for them- but this sucks. I have met a few College grads that deserve this kinda horseshoe up the woohaa... but for the most part, i want to punch most of them in their little presumtious high and mighty faces. And i am not a violent person. usually.
i don't consider the job i do or the ones i have done as 'paying my dues' i loved them, and can't imagine not having those memories / scars.
how boring is sitting around the proverbial campfire with the "insta-cup-a-Jazz" going to be...
A few years back, in spring 2001 I think, Jazz was supposed to hire 3 or 4 graduates right out of school at the CQFA in the Saguenay region of Quebec. It didn't work though because it got delayed a few month and the events we all know at the end of the summer just put an end to the whole deal.
On another note, 4 bursaries are awarded every year for graduates in the form of a type rating on the CRJ200. The only thing is that they have to complete the course in one month instead of the usual two. Not one has ever (as far as I know) failed. But hey, unless you have a EU passport, what can you do with an RJ type rating at 250hrs... The idea behind this has always been to prove to Air Canada that a 250hr pilot can successfully perform the job and that they should hire their graduates. They have proven it year after year for a long while.
Now, do I think it's a good idea? No. No because I've been working hard up 'til now and I certainly don't want to be undercut by some newbie. But beyond purely egoistic reasons, the decision-making skills at 250hrs are not as likely to be there. They may though, and having thousands of hours doesn't garantee anything BUT experience does help. A lot. The Cat, Doc and all those high-time guys had 250hrs once too. I don't even know these guys and I would trust them with my life in an airplane any day. But were they able to make sound decisions back then as they are today?
It could be argued that these airplanes fly themselves and, as mentionned earlier, require a different skill set when used under the conditions they use them. True, you're mostly just feeding the computer with numbers and doing your daily choregraphy. But, when the shit REALLY hits the fan, who would you rather have in front of the 100 passenger airplane? What about when Cloud Counter's angry God finds out the captain doesn't agree with Cloud Counter and gives him a heart attack to send him to hell faster? (No offense to non-crusading christians) When the FO has to take over or even stand up to the allmighty five-digit-hour grey-haired captain that turn out to be a complete moron, who do you want in front?
If Jazz really goes ahead with that, I suggest you talk to your respective families and advise them not to fly on Little Big Red. Oh, and their friend's families too, and so on. I can tell you, MY ass won't be on that plane and my money will go somewhere else.
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No Brakes
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
Apart from the obvious notes brought to light here (again), what really saddens me is that this is just the sign of things to come. The winds of change have been blowing for some time, I don't think anyone here can deny they haven't felt them. This begs the question... can we REALLY do anything about it? We can cry foul as long and as loud as we want but there is nothing regulatory from stopping carriers from doing just what jazz is trying to do... save a buck=make a buck. I think it's wrong, but until more stupid things and senseless losses happen it will continue. Turning to TC simply wont do anything. Transport has a history of being mainly reactive in grey areas. This is about as grey as they get. So, lets brace for impact. I guess then when one does go down or off the end we can all say "told ya so."
As for all the other airlines around the world hiring young low timers I will say this (from having instructed the swissair grads at flightsafety years ago) these are generally not your ordinary kids. Out of about some 5000 applicants every 4 months 30 were picked. They were exceptionally gifted. This is a far cry from the Seneca selection process (if there is even one). Korean air, Air China, Alitalia, Saudia, Austrian were all contract companies and they all had similarly stringent screening processes.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out safety wise, and industry pay wise. My gut tells me neither will be pleasant
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Please, no more witty sayings, smug advice, or bitter posts from low timers. Pay your dues. Be patient...
Nightflight, sorry no harm intended, I wasn't referring to "nutjob" as any particular person, rather the general rumour mill idea that gathers steam on avcanada with each new post. I hadn't actually seen any evidence up until now, just rumours.
Just out of curiosity since I have very limited knowledge of Seneca and the Ontario scene in particular.........who generally teaches the program at Seneca?
Is it higher time experienced guys, entry level instructors, experienced instructors with only instructor experience, bush pilots, etc.?
Maybe jazz isn't recieving the amount of or experienced resumes that they use too. I'm pretty sure several qualified and experienced people have turned down Jazz, due to the pay.
I mean..why leave a Multi-Pic position making 50-70k a yr to make 35K a yr? Cause its "an airline"? I think that most Turbine Captains are happier in their current situation and feel they are worth(and deserve) more than 35K a yr to operate a min. 35 pax airplane.
I understand whe sentiment here, from the people who have been slugging away for years. But has the military not been doing this for years? I would think flying a herc into Alert in pitch black would be a little more difficult then flying an RJ into Pearson or Trudeau. There are guys/girls bombing around in CF18's by themselves with probably around 4-500 hrs(just guess dont really know)
The CF will be putting people on the c-17 straight out of flight school as well. I dont know anything about the training at Seneca, nor have I ever met a graduate so cant speak for attitude or ability, but I dont really see an issue as long as the Capt has appropriate amount of experience. Just my two cents.
I'm surprised you can get that inflated head of yours into that tiny little cockpit of yours.
Honestly, you come across as a guy who never quite made it in the industry. You seem to think anybody who doesn't fly upside down isn't a "real" pilot. Get a grip.
First the skill set thing. The word set is to define a specific number of skills relevant to the topic. But as you think that sounds like something from the inquistioners' tower, I will be much more careful in selecting the words I use.
The rest of your post however, was interesting. I dont think your preaching to the choir here though.
The fear here, I think, is that Jazz will somehow become less safe with less experienced guys/gals in the right seat. But is that really going to be the case? As is said, plenty of other airlines all over the world have cadet programs, and it seems to work for them. I'd also suspect that most of the flying that the new Jazz people will be doing will be ILS to ILS - I can't see crew sched and captains letting a newby fly into somewhere like Castlegar right off the bat. Further, didn't Air Canada do something like this a few decades back? i don't see people refusing to fly with them..
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Last edited by North Shore on Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Ralliart wrote:Nightflight, sorry no harm intended, I wasn't referring to "nutjob" as any particular person, rather the general rumour mill idea that gathers steam on avcanada with each new post. I hadn't actually seen any evidence up until now, just rumours.
The top SIXTEEN grads from most of the aviation colleges in Canada (3 will be from Seneca) are being selected to be interviewed and have a sim ride on the Dash-8 sim.
From there, EIGHT (AT MOST) of the original sixteen candidates will be hired and are going to fly either the CRJ or the Dash-8 as an F/O.
This is a 3 year deal.
I’ve been told from reliable sources that Jazz has stated they plan to upgrade the successful candidates to capts in due time.
Those are the FACTS.
My opinion is that this is a great opportunity that I very much doubt more than a handful of people on this forum would pass up if they had that chance when they did their training.
Although I like to think “top grad” material is someone who is down to earth, my common sense tells me there will probably be some ego issues. I do also agree that initially, there may be issues with these F/Os being unable to do anything contrary to trusting their captain. And I do think there will be a lot of people who will be frustrated with the fact these grads are getting this golden opportunity, and even some people who will treat these grads with a huge amount of disrespect out of bitterness. (Which gets me thinking what if one of those bitter people was one of the Jazz capts, oh my).
On top of this I am sure that in the beginning these grads will make more mistakes than would an “ex Ho driver”.
However, I seriously doubt that these mistakes will be out of carelessness or neglect, like countless aviation accidents (AEROBATIC, AIRLINE OR OTHERWISE) and I very much doubt these mistakes will be life threatening and be anything more than an embarrassing moment for that pilot and a lesson learned.
The pilots from these colleges will be pilots who are trained to the legal standard and who I’m sure in all cases will be individuals who are talented, motivated and eager at the opportunity (yes even the Seneca grads).
After all, these “top grads” picked by the colleges will be representing their colleges and I guarantee they will be under a fucking microscope.
Besides if airline flying is as easy as Hedley says Jazz should just hire his 14 year old (if he could get his head through those tiny cockpit doors), that way I’m sure everyone would be much safer than having top college grads as the F/O.
I Like Myself wrote:The top SIXTEEN grads from most of the aviation colleges in Canada (3 will be from Seneca) are being selected to be interviewed and have a sim ride on the Dash-8 sim.
From there, EIGHT (AT MOST) of the original sixteen candidates will be hired and are going to fly either the CRJ or the Dash-8 as an F/O.
This is a 3 year deal.
I’ve been told from reliable sources that Jazz has stated they plan to upgrade the successful candidates to capts in due time.
Those are the FACTS.
My opinion is that this is a great opportunity that I very much doubt more than a handful of people on this forum would pass up if they had that chance when they did their training.
Although I like to think “top grad” material is someone who is down to earth, my common sense tells me there will probably be some ego issues.
Are there points for second place?
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She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.
Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
1. Success in aviation is as much based on what year you were born as how good a pilot you are.
2. Going to college, while useless to some, actually does appear to open doors for you that aren't open to others.
3. The baby boom demographics are catching up with us as a society.
4. Someone at Seneca is a hell of a negotiator.
5. The job of airline F/O doesn't really require any experience to do safely, it's more about training. Captain is an entirely different story.
6. Despite what most non-airline pilots tell themselves about how lame the job is and how great their own is, a little part of everyone wants to be an airline pilot, wear the hat, roll the suitcase, and flirt with the F/A's on layovers. Otherwise why bother to care about this at all?
7. There are plenty of mega-egos outside of airlines and colleges, too.
8. Most airline hiring processes are completely arbitrary. Its more about a weeding out process than an actual selection process. Ticking off the various boxes on an application is often worth more than you'd think.
9. All pilots make mistakes- airshow heroes, military, airline captains, college grads alike...nobody is exempt from having mother nature slap you down one day, no matter how many hours you've got.
10. There will always, always be somebody with less hours than you, younger than you, that gets promoted faster. Just learn to accept it.
so the colleges will pick the top grads.... should be interesting. at the college I went to there was so much dick sucking and ass kissing that the person who would have been picked for top grad wouldn't have been even close to the best pilot.
I talked to a jazz capt last aug, this guy started right out of college nearly 30 years ago. he had been there so long he was completely bored and had very little good to stay about the job. I guess thats what 30 years of airlines will do to ya. as for me, I think the most fun flying you will do is the stuff that leads up to the airline job. there is only one reason to work at an airline IMHO.... k maybe two reasons. Pension and Flight benefits!
at this point I have no interest in the airlines and will proabably never even apply. I say let them have it.... they can spend their 30 - 40 years being bored stupid and living in a hotel!
I wonder since Jazz is going to hire right out of school are they going to eventually drop the wages. Hey how about an even 12000 a year for the snot nosed brats. Jazz is so cheap already,unbelievable.Thank you Jazz,you sure make it easy to decide where NOT to send a resume.
“Given all things being equal, the simplest answer to a question will be the correct one.”
Simply put, they are running out of candidates with any sort of time or with any sort of skill. Not at this time…but they are starting to! Talked to a friend, who met a guy, who dated a girls whose mother once drove this guy down to the airport somewhere who told here that he knew this Jazz training fella who said that this is the case. On top of that out of 8 candidates for sim, on this one particular day, 4 flunked out.
As for just Seneca, it’s not. There are other colleges involved as well. So if all you folks with time would like to go down for an interview, all of the captains who might have to fly with these potential direct entry pilots thank you.
North Shore wrote:Well, seeing as I'm trying to get Jazz to give me a call, (more to cement my decision that where I am is better than there!) I find it rather frustrating that they value 200+hrs of circuits and a diploma more than my 4200 of everything else and a degree. ..
You want to know why you have not been called? Because of your attitude. You think you're entitled to an interview before a new grad simply because of your background and experience. This sense of entitlement is the number one reason why you and others like you will never be called. You will be the complainer and troublemaker all through your career as your bitterness seeps through on every pairing. Airlines want to hire applicants who love their present job and are happy to simply be involved in avaition and are not just passing time waiting for "the call". The fact that you even care that they haven't called you yet says soooooo much about your attitude. I know guys with half your time that are already on course. Better get used to it.
You want to know why you have not been called? Because of your attitude. You think you're entitled to an interview before a new grad simply because of your background and experience.
I find that funny, at least North Shore sounds like he actually has experience. I think actual experience should be why people are getting called. I dont know about anyone else but im not comfortable flying in a dash or RJ knowing the captain is flying single pilot. And thats what it will be. Anonymous1 i dont know if you have much experience, maybe your one of the grads, but let me tell you there is no way that anyone with no experience can even come close in ability to anyone who has been in the industry for a while.Someone who has flown in the crap and had to make decisions. I hope this topic doesnt bring all the 200 hour wonders on because really they are not in a position to even have an opinion about anything aviation related in Canada until they get out there and see what its about..
