And he's wasting his time on AvCanada, like we all have some sort of clout!!!!
DND moves to single source FWSAR platform
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
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mellow_pilot
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:04 am
- Location: Pilot Purgatory
He's trying to build grassroots support for the aircraft amongst communities, such as the aviation community, hiking community, anyone who might need to use such services. I received an e-mail from someone directly involved with the FWSAR project, developing the SOR, about a guy making the rounds around Canadian internet forums under the name of either Rescue Randy or RLP spreading distorted and false information to such groups.mellow_pilot wrote:
And he's wasting his time on AvCanada, like we all have some sort of clout!!!!
Now, now... You too have been caught doing this once or twice in the past and it's a fairly strong accusation. Better that you stick to presenting the facts in support of your position rather than speculating on who another member may or may not be based on an email you received...WJflyer wrote:...spreading distorted and false information to such groups.
Actually, the guy alerting me flipped through this forum and spotted this guy's handle, and it was seen by a couple CF members on various other websites, including a forum frequented by CF members. On the army.ca forums, a CF pilot from the Directorate of Air Requirements who is Deputy Project Director for the FWSAR project called him out, and he admitted it:CD wrote:Now, now... You too have been caught doing this once or twice in the past and it's a fairly strong accusation. Better that you stick to presenting the facts in support of your position rather than speculating on who another member may or may not be based on an email you received...WJflyer wrote:...spreading distorted and false information to such groups.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/ ... #msg509160
He and his boss has caused unimaginable damage to the FWSAR project due to the pressure EADS has put on Canadian media. The project is already behind schedule, and now thanks to EADS, it is even further behind due to damage control. The first birds, according to the first timeline the DND has created should already be in service already. The Buffs should have been by now begun its retirement, and the Hercs re-tasked primarily to transport duties.
It is unfortunate that the FWSAR discussion has fallen to personal attacks in yet another forum trying to discredit RLP Rescue Randy. I know both RLP and the DAR guy personally. RLP has been flying SAR forever in Labs, Buffs and Hercs all across the country (thus the Rescue Randy nickname given him) and recently retired as an accomplished senior officer. Now, he consults for EADS. The DAR guy's and RLP's visions of the FWSAR acquisition process differ considerably but at the end, they both have the best interests of the SAR mission at heart.
The DAR guy thinks he has the right aircraft now. His office has done the studies and produced stats justifying their criteria for the C27J.
RLP wants a competition. The FWSAR fast-track purchase died a long time ago when the Assist Dep Minister Material balked at the sole source purchasing concept. We're getting more Hercs before FWSAR. The Buffs are extended past 2010. Without the rush, RLP is promoting a competition before the aircraft selection.
There is a term frequently used when describing the huge procedural leap from steam-driven instruments to glass cockpits. The initial ignorance was described as "we didn't know what we didn't know." Can both aircraft fly at low search speeds without extreme flaps? What is the difference between the actual accel/stop distances as compared to the advertised t/o and ldg ground rolls? Do the aircraft have adequate visual search effectiveness? Using an engine as an APU, is that a smart way of doing business? Do the aircraft have realistic crosswind limitations? Is there enough floor space for SAR Techs? Hopefully these questions, and more, are answered before spending a huge chunk of the taxpayers dollars. Before buying a fleet of aircraft, as much as possible, we should know "what we don't know."
WJFlyer, before you start lecturing me or bad-mouthing anyone else, be advised that like RLP, I have extensive FWSAR experience and am professionally familiar with the FWSAR project. Lastly, I don't buy cars by just reading brochures.
The DAR guy thinks he has the right aircraft now. His office has done the studies and produced stats justifying their criteria for the C27J.
RLP wants a competition. The FWSAR fast-track purchase died a long time ago when the Assist Dep Minister Material balked at the sole source purchasing concept. We're getting more Hercs before FWSAR. The Buffs are extended past 2010. Without the rush, RLP is promoting a competition before the aircraft selection.
There is a term frequently used when describing the huge procedural leap from steam-driven instruments to glass cockpits. The initial ignorance was described as "we didn't know what we didn't know." Can both aircraft fly at low search speeds without extreme flaps? What is the difference between the actual accel/stop distances as compared to the advertised t/o and ldg ground rolls? Do the aircraft have adequate visual search effectiveness? Using an engine as an APU, is that a smart way of doing business? Do the aircraft have realistic crosswind limitations? Is there enough floor space for SAR Techs? Hopefully these questions, and more, are answered before spending a huge chunk of the taxpayers dollars. Before buying a fleet of aircraft, as much as possible, we should know "what we don't know."
WJFlyer, before you start lecturing me or bad-mouthing anyone else, be advised that like RLP, I have extensive FWSAR experience and am professionally familiar with the FWSAR project. Lastly, I don't buy cars by just reading brochures.
The probability of survival is dependent on the angle of arrival.
Air force may abandon $3-billion plan
Instead of new search-and-rescue planes, officials consider replacing Buffalo engines
By DANIEL LEBLANC
Friday, February 16, 2007 – Page A6
OTTAWA -- The Canadian Forces are contemplating putting new engines on their 40-year-old unpressurized Buffalo aircraft instead of buying new search-and-rescue planes, defence officials said yesterday.
The Canadian air force is flush with cash and is getting set to receive $13-billion in new planes and helicopters.
But the project to buy $3-billion in new search-and-rescue aircraft, which was long deemed a priority, is languishing and could be sacrificed if the military prefers to acquire other combat equipment.
Lieutenant-General Steve Lucas told the defence committee of the House that search-and-rescue capabilities could continue to be handled by the Buffalo and Hercules aircraft in the future.
The fleet of six Buffalo aircraft was purchased in 1967, while the 32 Hercules vary greatly in terms of age, having been bought between 1964 and 1996.
"Fixed-wing search and rescue is a priority for us, but there are mitigation measures there," Gen. Lucas told MPs.
"There are still a number of hours left in the newer Herc 130s that we have. The Buffalo aircraft is still a very capable platform, but will require some investment in it if, in fact, we choose to go that route," he said.
A spokeswoman for the Department of National Defence explained that the Buffalo could require new engines to keep flying if the purchase of new aircraft is delayed.
"Extending the life of the existing Buffalo aircraft fleet is an option under consideration," Lieutenant Carole Brown said. "The engineering and airworthiness requirements for such an extension, including the potential requirement for new engines, are being currently examined."
Gen. Lucas said it is up to the government to choose what it wants to do with its money. The answer might come in the country's new defence strategy, which is currently before the Harper cabinet.
"We have a couple of options available to us. Once again, that comes down to a prioritization issue," Gen. Lucas said.
The previous Liberal government had announced funding for search-and-rescue airplanes in 2004, but other aircraft have since moved to the top of the priority list. The government has signed a contract with the Boeing Co. to buy four C-17 cargo planes, and is moving on the purchase of Chinook medium-and-heavy-lift helicopters and new C130J Hercules transport planes.
An industry expert expressed disappointment at the proposal to keep the Buffalo in the air in years to come.
"Refurbishing a very old aircraft is not without risk. It would likely involve significant structural work and could require some avionics replacement, and even an engine upgrade. The supply of spare parts continues to be an issue," the source said. "Overall, such action may forestall a major capital expenditure for some time, but at what resource and operational cost?"
The Buffalo is a relatively slow aircraft that is stationed on the West Coast for search-and-rescue operations, where it is often tasked to fly over mountainous terrain.
"Although this is by no means the biggest [search-and-rescue] region in Canada, it is the busiest. The mild West Coast sees hundreds of people getting lost or in trouble while hiking, mountain climbing, boating and flying," DND's website says.
Regarding the project to buy new search-and-rescue planes, there has been a recent controversy in Ottawa over the fact that only one aircraft was seen to be able to meet DND's requirements. Opposition parties alleged the military was gearing the competition in favour of a specific manufacturer.
Instead of new search-and-rescue planes, officials consider replacing Buffalo engines
By DANIEL LEBLANC
Friday, February 16, 2007 – Page A6
OTTAWA -- The Canadian Forces are contemplating putting new engines on their 40-year-old unpressurized Buffalo aircraft instead of buying new search-and-rescue planes, defence officials said yesterday.
The Canadian air force is flush with cash and is getting set to receive $13-billion in new planes and helicopters.
But the project to buy $3-billion in new search-and-rescue aircraft, which was long deemed a priority, is languishing and could be sacrificed if the military prefers to acquire other combat equipment.
Lieutenant-General Steve Lucas told the defence committee of the House that search-and-rescue capabilities could continue to be handled by the Buffalo and Hercules aircraft in the future.
The fleet of six Buffalo aircraft was purchased in 1967, while the 32 Hercules vary greatly in terms of age, having been bought between 1964 and 1996.
"Fixed-wing search and rescue is a priority for us, but there are mitigation measures there," Gen. Lucas told MPs.
"There are still a number of hours left in the newer Herc 130s that we have. The Buffalo aircraft is still a very capable platform, but will require some investment in it if, in fact, we choose to go that route," he said.
A spokeswoman for the Department of National Defence explained that the Buffalo could require new engines to keep flying if the purchase of new aircraft is delayed.
"Extending the life of the existing Buffalo aircraft fleet is an option under consideration," Lieutenant Carole Brown said. "The engineering and airworthiness requirements for such an extension, including the potential requirement for new engines, are being currently examined."
Gen. Lucas said it is up to the government to choose what it wants to do with its money. The answer might come in the country's new defence strategy, which is currently before the Harper cabinet.
"We have a couple of options available to us. Once again, that comes down to a prioritization issue," Gen. Lucas said.
The previous Liberal government had announced funding for search-and-rescue airplanes in 2004, but other aircraft have since moved to the top of the priority list. The government has signed a contract with the Boeing Co. to buy four C-17 cargo planes, and is moving on the purchase of Chinook medium-and-heavy-lift helicopters and new C130J Hercules transport planes.
An industry expert expressed disappointment at the proposal to keep the Buffalo in the air in years to come.
"Refurbishing a very old aircraft is not without risk. It would likely involve significant structural work and could require some avionics replacement, and even an engine upgrade. The supply of spare parts continues to be an issue," the source said. "Overall, such action may forestall a major capital expenditure for some time, but at what resource and operational cost?"
The Buffalo is a relatively slow aircraft that is stationed on the West Coast for search-and-rescue operations, where it is often tasked to fly over mountainous terrain.
"Although this is by no means the biggest [search-and-rescue] region in Canada, it is the busiest. The mild West Coast sees hundreds of people getting lost or in trouble while hiking, mountain climbing, boating and flying," DND's website says.
Regarding the project to buy new search-and-rescue planes, there has been a recent controversy in Ottawa over the fact that only one aircraft was seen to be able to meet DND's requirements. Opposition parties alleged the military was gearing the competition in favour of a specific manufacturer.
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electraguy
- Rank 4
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:33 pm
buffalo
Well I would say the Spartan is the best option. Putting engines on the Buffalos would be a huge waste of money, the airframe is old and very tough to get parts for these days. The CASA is a neat little aircraft, but being as they have already shed a wing in the SAR role with another country I don;t think that is going to play well with there bid to build our SAR aircraft. The Spartan should be a good aircraft, being built by lockheed if i remember correctly. It would be smart to stay on the contintent to buy an aircraft this time, i would hope that DND has learned there lesson with the commorat.
Son, Your gonna have to make your mind up about growing up and becoming a pilot.. You can't do both!!
The Brazilians have retired their Buffalo fleet... I do not know the status of their airframes.EI-EIO wrote:are there lower-hour Buffalos that can be re-engined rather than trying to do it with the operational aircraft? This has shades of the fiasco in the UK where they keep trying to re-invent the Comet - ahem - Nimrod with dizzyingly expensive results.
The major problems most SAR techs see regarding the Buff that I have managed to gather there are three main points regarding the Buff that are problematic: first, spare parts availability, engines, and lack of pressurization.
Airframe life is not much of a question; the bird is unpressurized, meaning that there is a long life for these birds in the airframe. Look at how long some of the Dakota's are flying today; most date back to World War II.
Spare parts will be a problem; the Buff is an orphan. Re-engining will only fix that so far, it's everything else on the airframe that is getting increasingly hard to find, meaning that such parts are often special orders. Some of that can be alleviated by contracting spare parts to Viking Air, which from my understanding currently owns the rights to the DHC-5 Buff (in other words, we are now passing the buck for spare parts availability).
A Buff rebuild and re-life program could work, but from the various examples of such programs around the world, we will have to be sharp and diligent regarding cost overruns.
The whole point regarding the FWSAR project was about replacing the orphan fleet of Buffs in CF service and bumping the Hercs off primary SAR duties, and possibility, at the time the project was initiated, replacing the Twin Otter (ever since Viking Air made their intentions known that they were restarting Twin Otter production, that point became moot, and became more of an issue of reducing the number of fleet types in CF service). Rebuilding the Buffs may well be the only option because of how badly the project has been delayed (this was supposed to be a simple purchase, but it became a major boondoggle through the actions of various government members in the former Liberal government, and industry, Bombardier and EADS). The technology used in SAR has moved beyond the point that the CF is currently at right now, and it is increasingly difficult to argue against that any current SAR aircraft must have current off-the-shelf equipment.
The current C-27J Spartan is built by Alenia, which had some assistance from Lockheed, with the updating of the design. Lockheed had since ended their relationship with Alenia, most because they weren't benefiting from marketing the C-27J Spartan with the C-130J. That, from my view, burned Lockheed bad because the C-27J Spartan is now the leading contender for the US Army JCA program (Lockheed submitted the C-130J, but they were disqualified because the Herc was too big, and the whole point of the JCA program was about buying an aircraft smaller than the Herc to replace the C-23 Sherpa, C-12 Huron and C-26 Metroliner), and it is expected that the winner will be announced in March of this year.electraguy wrote:Well I would say the Spartan is the best option. Putting engines on the Buffalos would be a huge waste of money, the airframe is old and very tough to get parts for these days. The CASA is a neat little aircraft, but being as they have already shed a wing in the SAR role with another country I don;t think that is going to play well with there bid to build our SAR aircraft. The Spartan should be a good aircraft, being built by lockheed if i remember correctly. It would be smart to stay on the contintent to buy an aircraft this time, i would hope that DND has learned there lesson with the commorat.
Interesting lesson. Canada's process had better be procedurally correct and transparent.
http://www.jurnalul.ro/articol_71677/ro ... ulled.html
Romania Had Bidding Granting Italy’s Alenia a Contract with Romania’s Air Force Annulled 03 Februarie 2007 | de Dan Constantin
The public bidding for buying seven medium- and short-courier transport planes to service the Romanian Air Force was annulled after scandal broke regarding the integrity of the process.
The main criterion for selecting the winning company was advertised to be the price. EADS CASA, in Spain, entered the competition with its C-295 plane, and Alenia Aeronautica, of Italy, entered its C27J Spartan.
The bidding book, outlining the technical requirements for the deal was carefully altered to favor the Italians’ offer. However, on opening the envelopes, the selection committee panicked when seeing that the EADS offer made the main criterion, as it was 12 million cheaper than the one of Alenia.
Playing the technical requirements against EADS, the selection committee disqualified the company from the bidding process, which triggered a huge scandal. It did not help that the media found out of the problems the Spartan plane posed to its buyers in Greece, where the planes where proven to actually leak water inside.
Alenia mounted a media campaign in Romania, to counter the information revealed by Jurnalul national, while EADS Spain contested the result of the bidding.
The National Authority in Charge with Solving Complaints did not manage to make the first term for solving the case and was subjected to a lot of pressure. Later on it invalidated the deal, but not in very clear terms. Catalin Popescu, spokesperson for the authority, said the bidding was annulled because “it infringed upon the principles of non-discrimination, fair treatment and transparency in public acquisitions.”
The Air Force commander Gheorghe Catrina refused to undersign the results of the bidding, while the Defense minister Sorin Frunzaverde showed he favored the Italians, after Silviu Berlusconi supported the case of Frunzaverde’s Democrat Party for its membership in the European Popular Party.
If Alenia fails to appeal the decision in court, then the bidding will start all over again.
There are reasons now to wait for an internal investigation inside the Ministry of Defense, to get to the names which tried to distort the bidding for personal gain. We’ll be back…
Translated by ANCA PADURARU
Everything you wanted to know about Caribou and Buffalo found here: http://www.dhc4and5.org/index.htm
http://www.jurnalul.ro/articol_71677/ro ... ulled.html
Romania Had Bidding Granting Italy’s Alenia a Contract with Romania’s Air Force Annulled 03 Februarie 2007 | de Dan Constantin
The public bidding for buying seven medium- and short-courier transport planes to service the Romanian Air Force was annulled after scandal broke regarding the integrity of the process.
The main criterion for selecting the winning company was advertised to be the price. EADS CASA, in Spain, entered the competition with its C-295 plane, and Alenia Aeronautica, of Italy, entered its C27J Spartan.
The bidding book, outlining the technical requirements for the deal was carefully altered to favor the Italians’ offer. However, on opening the envelopes, the selection committee panicked when seeing that the EADS offer made the main criterion, as it was 12 million cheaper than the one of Alenia.
Playing the technical requirements against EADS, the selection committee disqualified the company from the bidding process, which triggered a huge scandal. It did not help that the media found out of the problems the Spartan plane posed to its buyers in Greece, where the planes where proven to actually leak water inside.
Alenia mounted a media campaign in Romania, to counter the information revealed by Jurnalul national, while EADS Spain contested the result of the bidding.
The National Authority in Charge with Solving Complaints did not manage to make the first term for solving the case and was subjected to a lot of pressure. Later on it invalidated the deal, but not in very clear terms. Catalin Popescu, spokesperson for the authority, said the bidding was annulled because “it infringed upon the principles of non-discrimination, fair treatment and transparency in public acquisitions.”
The Air Force commander Gheorghe Catrina refused to undersign the results of the bidding, while the Defense minister Sorin Frunzaverde showed he favored the Italians, after Silviu Berlusconi supported the case of Frunzaverde’s Democrat Party for its membership in the European Popular Party.
If Alenia fails to appeal the decision in court, then the bidding will start all over again.
There are reasons now to wait for an internal investigation inside the Ministry of Defense, to get to the names which tried to distort the bidding for personal gain. We’ll be back…
Translated by ANCA PADURARU
Everything you wanted to know about Caribou and Buffalo found here: http://www.dhc4and5.org/index.htm
The probability of survival is dependent on the angle of arrival.
