Seneca grads to go direct entry Jazz & Mid East

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:15 am

But I suppose you’re right. It’s much better to fill the cockpit with stubborn experienced pilots rather than young, open-minded rookies that actually still possess an ounce of passion for the job. With comments like yours, it’s a miracle anyone even wants to be a pilot.

Then there some of us who are older who recognize that the zero to a jet crew training system does work.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:43 pm

BankAngle1987 wrote:What other countries employ this “crock” of a cadet program…hmm…England, Germany, most of Europe actually, South Africa, China…but of course, what do these countries know right? After all they’re not half as successful as our booming aviation industry . .

How much does it cost to get on with BA?? 100k pounds?? How much does the tax man have to pay for?????

If Jazz wants to hire all the fresh meat, let them, but let them PAY for it. I don't care if they hire only seneca grads... But I don't want to be paying for it...

I snubb the guys paying for PPC and I snub the guys collecting EI to pay for type ratings...

PS. If you snub one act you better snub the other ones, because they're all "unfair" one way or another.... Or, you can be "for it," but you better be in favour of all other methods of getting somewhere...

spartacus · Post by **spartacus** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:33 pm

Exactly.
If the colleges are going to be Jazz's training grounds, then the funding from the tax payers should stop and all the colleges should be funded by Jazz.

BankAngle1987 · Post by **BankAngle1987** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:48 pm

I completely agree with that concept. However, can we be assured that AC Jazz is going to remain financially stable enough to fund college programs? Probably not, and they're no comparison to giants like BA and CP who fund their own programs, but it is a valid point. I'm happy that at least there are a few who offer constructive criticism, not just mindless ego-banter.

Brantford Beech Boy · Post by **Brantford Beech Boy** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:39 pm

I'm not 100% sure but I believe that the gov't funding of Seneca (don't know about Sault & Confed) was either slashed signifigantly or cut-off altogether when they changed the program from a 3 year diploma to a 4 year degree.

I do know that the program is drastically different from the one I graduated from in 1995.

BBB

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:44 pm

AFAIK, the flight training is still funded by the Ontario government; it's the degree that warranted the tuition hike.

Non-subsidized colleges will be involved with this experiment too.

V1 · Post by V1 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:00 pm

This seems like a lot of talk and no real evidence of this happening?
Are there any REAL links on this anywhere?

People are taken directly out of flight school all over the world, why not in canada?
That doesn't mean that everyone that has worked and earned their experience come out with nothing.

spartacus · Post by **spartacus** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:00 am

BankAngle1987 wrote:I completely agree with that concept. However, can we be assured that AC Jazz is going to remain financially stable enough to fund college programs?

Unfortuantely that is not my problem, KWIM?
A for profit company should not have it's training subsidised by the gov. Either Jazz can fund them, or the students end up paying for it all, much like in the US.

g5 · Post by g5 » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:48 am

With regards to British Airways, they haven't conducted a cadet program since the whole airplanes hitting the buildings fiasco.

If you look, they require 1000 hrs on over 20 tonne aircraft, or more recently 500 hours on A320 with current type.

BankAngle1987 · Post by **BankAngle1987** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:26 am

Okay, good call on the BA actually I wasn't aware of that. However companies like Cathay and Air Mauritius operate these programs, just to name a few. What about Lufthansa? They're a Star Alliance member just like Jazz and they're not exactly struggling...

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:40 pm

Whether or not you agree with who gets the end product, we are set up so that government pays the lion's share of education costs. Its become skewed a bit recently with grads having huge debt loads, but we, the taxpayer, pay for all the training for all the professions. If you want an MBA and a nice high salary potential at the end, it will cost you $55,000 for an executive MBA at Ottawa U. or McGill for that nice piece of parchment. You might go to a school where the building was donated by Molson or Labatts or Ho Chi Minh and you will pay a lot, but not all of what it costs.

Just because a more 'prestigious' company like Jazz(!) wants the grads makes no difference to the system. If Jazz can make money with the grads, then so can any other company.

Get over this Jazz thing - a dozen or so direct-entry pilots will not make any difference to your life, except the size of your ulcer. Go back to worrying about Al Quaida or global warming.

When times are good, as they are now (believe it or not!) why bother with Jazz? If you have enough for Jazz, go right past and go Westjet/AC, or Cathay or Singapore or....

petey · Post by **petey** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:06 pm

I'm seeing a lot of comparisons to companies like BA and Cathay. Fair enough, a 250 pilot can read checkilists for a jet aircraft; however, in these other parts of the world ie. Asia, there is much more demand for pilots, then there is supply. In Canada, with an abundance of "overqualified" pilots to fly for Jazz, what would be the reason? Ahh well. Good luck to these grads, just means I can skip working with them, I hear a bunch have attitudes.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:40 pm

Makes no difference to me...

However.. for all you folk that are worried about this and the seniority issues and job positions.. Remember this..

When the industry tanks in 2-3-4 years from now (it's GOING to happen.. it always does.. cyclical) these guys will be laid off and are pretty much useless for any of the jobs available outside of Jazz in Canuckland. What bush or SPIFR or float operator etc. is going to hire a 1500hr right seat dash 8 or RJ kid who has no PIC??

Best of luck to the folk who go that route.. I hope it works out in the best interest of the company and their careers.

Cheers,
Rowdy

jim_from_texas · Post by **jim_from_texas** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:08 pm

Well the smart ones would go overseas (Asia) and get f/o and s/o spots on widebody ac. Flying for an airline with a solid and structured training as well as flying by the book(pretty much) large turboprop or rj will give them a good head start. When the times get tough bush guy will have to stick with the bush but an airline guy who is willing to stick his nose outside of Canada will have more opportunities for career advancement.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:05 pm

I am not so sure about the Gulf Air hiring of low-time expats. Gulf Air does hire low-time locals and does run an ab-initio scheme (for nationals of Bahrain and Oman), however, the lowest I've seen for expats is around 2000 hours TT.

As for concerns about what happens theoretically when the airline industry tanks in a few years-- well, the 1500 hour CRJ FO might be in the same unemployment line with the C-185 driver, but the CRJ FO has a seniority number and will be back before any new hires. These guys are very fortunate, they are at the right place, right time, in the industry.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:50 pm

Let's face it, with what Jazz pays, this would be the only way they can guarantee their new hires won't be going to WJ or mainline within the next 2 years after date of hire.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:07 am

co-joe wrote:Let's face it, with what Jazz pays, this would be the only way they can guarantee their new hires won't be going to WJ or mainline within the next 2 years after date of hire.

I don't think this guarantees anything for Jazz...

Smitty · Post by **Smitty** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:36 am

I think the main difference in the Middle East and Asia is the fact that they want more local talent in the pointy end of the aircraft. Most expat Captains will agree that as long as things go textbook, there is no problem. The inexperience shows when the cadets are forced outside the comfort zone resulting in helmet fire and the Captain is forced to take control.

I do agree that such programs should be self funded. Any pilot that has lived in Ontario should not have to fund their competition.

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:33 pm

What I just don't understand about all of this is why higher time pilots care about this topic at all. Why would an experienced pilot even consider quitting a turbine job to move to Toronto for $35K when they can make $50 - $60k flying a King Air around. Also, you really screw yourself for going onwards to AC by going to Jazz first as you likely won't "pass" your interview to AC. I think living in the north where you can buy a house for less than $500k and not sit in traffic for an hour beats sitting at Jazz. Some of you guys are pretty screwed up in your thinking.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:25 pm

Anonymous1 wrote:What I just don't understand about all of this is why higher time pilots care about this topic at all. Why would an experienced pilot even consider quitting a turbine job to move to Toronto for $35K when they can make $50 - $60k flying a King Air around. Also, you really screw yourself for going onwards to AC by going to Jazz first as you likely won't "pass" your interview to AC. I think living in the north where you can buy a house for less than $500k and not sit in traffic for an hour beats sitting at Jazz. Some of you guys are pretty screwed up in your thinking.

This is getting off topic, but seeing as I started this one I'd like to take the liberty of offering a different perspective. Well you see Anonymous, it's about different strokes for different folks. Some of us actually like the big cities and the lifestyle that goes with it. I have lived up in the North and flown all over it and couldn't wait to get back to Toronto. Also there is the family part of the equation. Most of mine and my close friends are here. To put it simply, I just plain love it here and gladly accept things like traffic and the higher cost of living as the trade off. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the weekend getaway up North to cottage country, but wouldnt want to live there 24-7.
Cheers!!!

grammar boy · Post by **grammar boy** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:38 pm

You guys are all full of shit:

http://jobs.workopolis.com/jobshome/db/ ... _maxjob=21

Take note of this part:

In order to be considered for employment pilots must meet certain basic criteria:

* possess a Canadian Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL);
* have a minimum of 1,500 hours fixed wing flight experience *;
* 1,000 hours pilot in command (PIC) experience is preferred*;
* have a minimum of 500 hours multi-engine flight time*;

* Please provide a detailed breakdown of your flying experience (by equipment and type including PIC time) in a cover letter (in case you thought the asterisk stood for "unless you are a College Avaition Grad)

@#$! you guys are gullible...

Like shooting fish in a barrel this place is!

Tui · Post by **Tui** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:58 am

Either way, everyone is looking at taking lower time pilots. NAC and Wasaya have done it, why not Jazz? Everyone is re-evaluating their mins with the lack of pilots.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:17 pm

I heard today from a reliable source this is all rumour.

bcflyer · Post by **bcflyer** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:06 pm

altiplano wrote:I heard today from a reliable source this is all rumour.

Wonder why the Dircector of Flight Ops at Jazz would confirm it then?

Dark Helmet · Post by **Dark Helmet** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:55 am

grammar boy wrote:You guys are all full of shit:

http://jobs.workopolis.com/jobshome/db/ ... _maxjob=21

Take note of this part:

In order to be considered for employment pilots must meet certain basic criteria:

* possess a Canadian Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL);
* have a minimum of 1,500 hours fixed wing flight experience *;
* 1,000 hours pilot in command (PIC) experience is preferred*;
* have a minimum of 500 hours multi-engine flight time*;

* Please provide a detailed breakdown of your flying experience (by equipment and type including PIC time) in a cover letter (in case you thought the asterisk stood for "unless you are a College Avaition Grad)

@#$! you guys are gullible...

Like shooting fish in a barrel this place is!

You won't find it on the Jazz website. The news is posted on the Jazz Ops. website. It is a password protected website that only Jazz pilots have access to.

Bottom line, It is not 100% official, but they are seriously looking at it. And most likely it will happen based on what was posted on the flt ops site.

Now as far as who is funding this........who knows. IMO I can imagine there will some taxpayers money involved. Think, if Jazz can afford to fund this, they can afford to pay their pilot better. If they can afford to pay their pilots better, many would stay. If their pilots stay, there would not be a need to bring 200 hours pilots who won't be able to jump ship in the first place.