How many hours was it before you commercial guys felt you had it all figured out (stick and rudder wise)? 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000, never? And by that I mean could be totally relaxed and have consistently great landings in strong, gusty crosswinds, etc...Or are you always kind of tense in these situations? Coming up on the 500 hour mark and just wondering how long it takes to perfect this challenging art of flying!
Buck
When did you finally "Get It?'
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corporate joe
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Re: When did you finally "Get It?'
The day you stop being scared and start being relaxed is the day when you get yourself in trouble. It doesn't matter how many hours you have, you should always keep that same respect towards any landing you are facing. Many accidents have happened at airports where pilots knew the field, and had thousands of hours landing there.BuckNiner wrote:How many hours was it before you commercial guys felt you had it all figured out (stick and rudder wise)? 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000, never? And by that I mean could be totally relaxed and have consistently great landings in strong, gusty crosswinds, etc...Or are you always kind of tense in these situations? Coming up on the 500 hour mark and just wondering how long it takes to perfect this challenging art of flying!
Buck
Experience will allow you to recognize situations and will give you an edge to deal with them, but it will never replace good airmanship. Never take a situation for granted.
As they say, you start with an empty bucket of experience and a full bucket of luck, and the trick is to not empty your bucket of luck before you fill your bucket of experience.
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
Every new airplane I fly is a new challenge.
Flying is a constant learning process. That why, I feel, most pilots enjoy it so much. It rarely ever gets mundane.
Cat, what do you think? I'll bet you still learn new things at 30k hours. I know I do at 3k.
Flying is a constant learning process. That why, I feel, most pilots enjoy it so much. It rarely ever gets mundane.
Cat, what do you think? I'll bet you still learn new things at 30k hours. I know I do at 3k.
Remember complacency killsAnd by that I mean could be totally relaxed and have consistently great landings in strong, gusty crosswinds
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
Re: When did you finally "Get It?'
Nonsense! Respect for your aircraft, the conditions and your ability is what keeps you out of trouble. Fear subsides proportionately to your exposure to and experience with conditions.corporate joe wrote:BuckNiner wrote:How many hours was it before you commercial guys felt you had it all figured out (stick and rudder wise)? 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000, never? And by that I mean could be totally relaxed and have consistently great landings in strong, gusty crosswinds, etc...Or are you always kind of tense in these situations? Coming up on the 500 hour mark and just wondering how long it takes to perfect this challenging art of flying!
Buck.The day you stop being scared and start being relaxed is the day when you get yourself in trouble. It doesn't matter how many hours you have, you should always keep that same respect towards any landing you are facing.
The secret to handling aircraft is to positively control it at all times. Make the aircraft do what you want it to. Touch down in your target zone and don't be happy with anything less. I have not feared a maneuver in an aircraft since I had about 2500 hours. That was 14000 ago....
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Cat Driver
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First off yes, we never cease learning." Cat, what do you think? I'll bet you still learn new things at 30k hours. I know I do at 3k. "
Second before I get into an airplane I try and have the flight pre programmed in my mind with an out for every conceivable problem that may arise........then once airborne I try and visualize there I want the fuc.er to go and draw a path in my mind ahead of the airplane.....
...the real secret to this path is how narrow you want it to be....the more narrow the more accurate you fly....
......when landing I strive to land on the center of the center line markings within about one thousandth of an inch......and at an exact point on the runway.....
and the airplane must be aligned with the center line with zero drift at touch down even in a X/wind that is at the outer limits of the control inputs to correct for.
Now back to the origional question asked by the person who started this thread.
If a pilot is having problems with their self confidence in any phase of flight it is a sign of having never completely understood the issue that you feel uncomfortable with.
Generally is is an indication of poor training from the start and not seeking out someone who can get to the root of why you are uncomfortable.
Flying an airplane is really not all that difficult and with proper training you should be able to fly it at its limits with confidence by the time you receive your Commercial license.
If there are some areas you feel uncomfortable with find a good teacher who can show you the limits and instill confidence in your own ability to fly accurately......
It is no more complex than that.
The most satisfying part of flying for me is taking a pilot who lacks skills and in short order have them flying like Bob Hoover and thinking ahead of the machine......
You do not leave it up to the airplane where it wants to go....you do not suggest to the airplane where you want it to go...
...you make the fuc.er go exactly where you want it to go...every time.
No one can be perfect..but everyone can strive for perfection.
N O T E ::::::::::::!!!!!!!!!
This is what I am referring to....
I was addressing the red part of the question.....the stick and rudder part of flying should be perfected before you get your CPL because without having perfected that part of flying you will be screwed learning the rest of being an accomplished airman as you learn from experience during the rest of your career." How many hours was it before you commercial guys felt you had it all figured out (stick and rudder wise)?[/
Last edited by Cat Driver on Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Rudderless
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Always be prepared, no matter how small the trip! I know I sound like a boy scout, but as long as you plan ahead, make yourself aware of what you need to know for the flight, and you stay ahead of the aircraft, you'll be comfortable. If you rush, or if you don't plan for contingencies, you're probably going to feel some anxiety.
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Cat Driver
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Thank you, seldom does anyone agree with my ideas on teaching and the art of flying." Well Cat Driver, your post really is all that needs to be said on this topic. I couldn't agree more.. "
Were I to have posted that on the flight training forum I would have been attacked as a heretic and a misscontent stuck in a by gone era before the dawn of real flight instructors.
You do not have to know molecular structure of the machine to make said structure go where you want it to go in the correct attitude for the task at hand.
I guess I'm just to simplistic in my way of doing things.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Let me be clear that there is no "fearing" of anything. And I am not concerned with decision making, etc...I was more trying to convey the fact that the "hands and feet" skill of flying is hard to perfect. And since I have personally watched some 705 operators still wheelbarrowing airplanes when landing in crosswinds or landing left or right of centreline I have concluded that some pilots are still learning far into their careers. If someone is content to bounce their aircraft in every third landing, or touch down 1500 ft. down the runway that's their own business. But I am hoping that at some point later on in my career I will line up on final with the wind howling 90 degrees to the runway and grease the airplane in on the centre of the numbers time after time after time. Maybe this is an unattainable goal? I'm sure there are many that will say it's not going to happen and I can tell you that I witness poor flying all the time by pilots that have 1000's of hours.
Cat: I know you have a beef with today's poor training but when a guy goes from flying a 172 down south to flying a tailwheel a/c on wheel/skis, at "gross" weight, in sub-marginal VFR, into a skinny, snow covered mine strip with a 17 knot crosswind he will still have some figuring to do. I have yet to see a pilot with 200 hours who has accumulated all the "stick and rudder" he will need in his entire flying career.
Cat: I know you have a beef with today's poor training but when a guy goes from flying a 172 down south to flying a tailwheel a/c on wheel/skis, at "gross" weight, in sub-marginal VFR, into a skinny, snow covered mine strip with a 17 knot crosswind he will still have some figuring to do. I have yet to see a pilot with 200 hours who has accumulated all the "stick and rudder" he will need in his entire flying career.
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Cat Driver
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BuckNiner, I am sorry you have taken my comments the wrong way.
I did not say you feared the airplane I was only trying to get to the reason why you seem to be having problems controlling one as you indicated in your first post.
You your self state you are having difficulty with the " Hands and feet " part of flying, my position is there is nothing more important than good hands and feet in making the airplane do what you want it to do.
BuckNiner I don't really give a rats ass about the state of ab-initio flight training in Canada as there is nothing I can do to make it better...but I do care about re-teaching those who have left the training segment of aviation with " hands and feet " skills that find a 17 knot X/wind to be something that requires them to work at landing an airplane.
As to this:
I can however once again state beyond any reasonable doubt that any normally wired person can be taught how to fly a light aircraft to a very high level of skill hands and feet wise in 200 hours.....for sure something as basic as x/winds fall well into that realm of flying skills...because they are " B A S I C " flying skills.
BuckNiner, it is not my intention to get into a situation whereby you feel I am being unfair to you, I was only trying to respond to a question you posed here in the most honest manner I could.
Cat
I did not say you feared the airplane I was only trying to get to the reason why you seem to be having problems controlling one as you indicated in your first post.
You your self state you are having difficulty with the " Hands and feet " part of flying, my position is there is nothing more important than good hands and feet in making the airplane do what you want it to do.
BuckNiner I don't really give a rats ass about the state of ab-initio flight training in Canada as there is nothing I can do to make it better...but I do care about re-teaching those who have left the training segment of aviation with " hands and feet " skills that find a 17 knot X/wind to be something that requires them to work at landing an airplane.
As to this:
That is a difficult one to respond to in a definitive manner because during a pilots career he/she will be learning many new skills as airplanes evolve more and more towards automation." I have yet to see a pilot with 200 hours who has accumulated all the "stick and rudder" he will need in his entire flying career."
I can however once again state beyond any reasonable doubt that any normally wired person can be taught how to fly a light aircraft to a very high level of skill hands and feet wise in 200 hours.....for sure something as basic as x/winds fall well into that realm of flying skills...because they are " B A S I C " flying skills.
BuckNiner, it is not my intention to get into a situation whereby you feel I am being unfair to you, I was only trying to respond to a question you posed here in the most honest manner I could.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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I have already explained how I try and land regardless of the conditions, sometimes it is not perfect but by striving for perfection I have yet to have one get out of control, even in conditions far outside of the demonstrated limits of the airplane." I think we need to define "perfection" here."
So I'm interested in your thoughts on perfection.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat in no way am I talking about being in or out of control of an a/c. Obviously that HAS to be down pat. What I am talking about is a smooth stable approach, touching down on the centre of the first 100 ft. of the runway....gently with no wandering, in any wind conditions.
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Cat Driver
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Hmmm...
When you were training toward your commercial license were you not taught to be able to touch down in a 100 foot zone?
100 feet is really a lot of runway as a touch down target.
When you next land forget 100 feet aim for 50 feet and work down from there......
The best way to gain confidence in landing short is to practice the curving approach to touch down, that will make the aim point far easier to hit with the wheels.
Be sure to do it both left and right so you can do it equally well either way.
Remember when flying the curved approach in a high X/wind you must fly the curve into the X/wind...not with the X/wind behind you......
When you were training toward your commercial license were you not taught to be able to touch down in a 100 foot zone?
100 feet is really a lot of runway as a touch down target.
When you next land forget 100 feet aim for 50 feet and work down from there......
The best way to gain confidence in landing short is to practice the curving approach to touch down, that will make the aim point far easier to hit with the wheels.
Be sure to do it both left and right so you can do it equally well either way.
Remember when flying the curved approach in a high X/wind you must fly the curve into the X/wind...not with the X/wind behind you......
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I'm sure everybody's goal is perfection. The fact is that it is EVIDENT that this is not occuring in day to day operations. Would you not agree to this? You can go to any airport and watch poor landing after poor landing. Striving toward a goal and actually attaining it CONSISTENTLY are two different things.
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corporate joe
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"Fear" was obviously a word that some got stuck on, without taking the rest into context. Even though it's not the right word to use, I figured the explanations around it would allow it to be understood nonetheless. I guess the closest word I can think of is "respect" (which is a word I also used if I am not mistaken). I respect the challenge that any landing may bring, never underestimate it no matter how good I know my aircraft, no matter how nice it is outside and no matter how many times I have landed at that airport. I am a human and for that reason I am a mistake waiting to happen, and it is with this "respect" for the situation that is presenting itself in front of me that I prepare myself.
Snowgoose said it exactly as I should have said it: "complacency kills". "Fear" complacency. Don't "fear" it by panicking and getting nervous and being uncomfortable, "fear" it by not underestimating it and being as sharp as you can.
EDIT: P.S.: remember that the human being is usually the weakest link in the chain and it is in that context that I say that it is safer to be a little worried than it is to be overconfident.
Snowgoose said it exactly as I should have said it: "complacency kills". "Fear" complacency. Don't "fear" it by panicking and getting nervous and being uncomfortable, "fear" it by not underestimating it and being as sharp as you can.
EDIT: P.S.: remember that the human being is usually the weakest link in the chain and it is in that context that I say that it is safer to be a little worried than it is to be overconfident.
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
I fly with a guy that has 15,000 hours and has flown everything from B200 to Ho's to 727's and still it aint perfect and he is the first to admit when he has made a mistake...........like a few posts above you never stop learning...its an airplane....nothing more nothing less....it will do what it wants....
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Phillip Banks
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Blue Side Down
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It took me about 300 hours and experience on certain aircraft to get such a handle on things that I could fly my own predictions to the ground, or figure out how to actively fix things in the approach. A thousand or so t/o's and landings while towing gliders over a summer helped to really nail things down.
It comes down to both quality and quantity. 1000 cycles on a tailwheel are probably worth thrice that on a nosedragger. Almost soiling your pants helps to boost the curve every now and then too.
I've done one season on floats now, and while the understanding and mechanics are there, the thought of the next landing still scares the hell out of me. It's a good thing, in the beginning.
Like CJ said above... never underestimate the possibilites; just be ready for any weird and wacky stuff that could occur, and enjoy the greasers in the mean time.
It comes down to both quality and quantity. 1000 cycles on a tailwheel are probably worth thrice that on a nosedragger. Almost soiling your pants helps to boost the curve every now and then too.
I've done one season on floats now, and while the understanding and mechanics are there, the thought of the next landing still scares the hell out of me. It's a good thing, in the beginning.
Like CJ said above... never underestimate the possibilites; just be ready for any weird and wacky stuff that could occur, and enjoy the greasers in the mean time.
I agree with your first post, Cat. I would like to add that we used to say that the guy with 1000 hours is the most dangerous pilot at the base - he thinks he's getting pretty sh*t-hot and nobody can fly his airplane better than he can. He feels very confident because he really hasn't scared himself badly, oh, for a couple of months now. In fact his skills should be getting pretty good and if he has the right attitude he is ready to really absorb what is going on around him and reflect upon what it means to make a good decision. Now, if he doesn't think he knows all of it, he might actually start to learn what it means to be a person responsible for other's lives and property, and how important what he does next is to other people's families and friends. If he's not already getting it at work, this is a good time to get the CP to take a ride with him, to do some circuits, to have the CP simulate an emergency or two, to do some of the things together that you might not be so sharp at. Rent Cat for an hour or two!
Remember how dangerous this is - its not like skiing where you hurt yourself - you've got my family in there.
Remember how dangerous this is - its not like skiing where you hurt yourself - you've got my family in there.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Every pilot has a different level of skill and will never be better than his or her best, and that may be better or worse than the next person. Every airplane has its own characteristics and quirks. And every day brings its own challenges with weather conditions and what you happen to be doing with the airplane at the time. It's a dynamic environment where one flight is usually different somehow from the previous one.
The most competent and justifiably confident pilots I have ever seen are the ones who don't let their guard down. They always strive for perfection, and sometimes even achieve it. But they never let it go to their heads. They laugh at their own screw ups unless it's potentially serious, then they give themselves a kick in the ass. They are their own worse critic and their own best instructor. They learn from their experience and that of others. As they gain more and more experience, they realize more and more how much they don't know. But they vow to learn it.
And here's the big thing...they are in control of their aircraft, they are not a passenger in it.
There is not a threshold you cross and suddenly "get it". It is a gradual process that hopefully doesn't end until your very last flight with 30,000 hours in the log book.
The most competent and justifiably confident pilots I have ever seen are the ones who don't let their guard down. They always strive for perfection, and sometimes even achieve it. But they never let it go to their heads. They laugh at their own screw ups unless it's potentially serious, then they give themselves a kick in the ass. They are their own worse critic and their own best instructor. They learn from their experience and that of others. As they gain more and more experience, they realize more and more how much they don't know. But they vow to learn it.
And here's the big thing...they are in control of their aircraft, they are not a passenger in it.
There is not a threshold you cross and suddenly "get it". It is a gradual process that hopefully doesn't end until your very last flight with 30,000 hours in the log book.
Every pilot is different, but when someone has accumulated around 1,000 hours, you'll have a pretty good idea as to how good a stick & rudder pilot he's going to be. Some people are more naturally good at it, while others have to work at it, while an unlucky few will never "get it".
No one gets every landing perfect, unless they're lucky every time
One important point .... someone with 1,000 hrs accumulated over 20 yrs (eg 50 hrs/yr) is likely not going to be as good as their identical twin who accumulated 1,000 hrs in 2 yrs (500 hrs/yr). The intensity with which experience is gained makes a big difference, IMHO, to the skill attained.
To put it simply, fly every day. Twice a day, if possible.
FWIW when I check someone out in the Pitts (and they get safe) I tell them the worst thing they can do is take some time off. They need to fly, fly, fly. I tell them to go out and buy 3 sets of tires and try to burn them all off as fast as they can. In a Pitts, somewhere between 300 and 500 landings, someone "gets it", and the shorter the time period during which they accumulated that experience, the better.
The really weird thing is that once someone is "safe" in a Pitts, crosswinds are of no concern whatsoever. I know, this sounds really bizarre, but with the high stall speed (Vref 100-110 mph) any crosswind is a smaller percentage, and with the small vertical fin and big rudder, and short distance between the mains and the vertical fin, the best gift you can give any Pitts pilot is a strong, steady crosswind, so that he can actually see during the flare (and sideslip)
When I first got checked out in Pitts in California, we did the basic six-pack of spins, and during the landing, the crosswind component I had exceeded the demonstrated x/wind during certification, which helped me, as odd as that sounds.
No one gets every landing perfect, unless they're lucky every time
One important point .... someone with 1,000 hrs accumulated over 20 yrs (eg 50 hrs/yr) is likely not going to be as good as their identical twin who accumulated 1,000 hrs in 2 yrs (500 hrs/yr). The intensity with which experience is gained makes a big difference, IMHO, to the skill attained.
To put it simply, fly every day. Twice a day, if possible.
FWIW when I check someone out in the Pitts (and they get safe) I tell them the worst thing they can do is take some time off. They need to fly, fly, fly. I tell them to go out and buy 3 sets of tires and try to burn them all off as fast as they can. In a Pitts, somewhere between 300 and 500 landings, someone "gets it", and the shorter the time period during which they accumulated that experience, the better.
The really weird thing is that once someone is "safe" in a Pitts, crosswinds are of no concern whatsoever. I know, this sounds really bizarre, but with the high stall speed (Vref 100-110 mph) any crosswind is a smaller percentage, and with the small vertical fin and big rudder, and short distance between the mains and the vertical fin, the best gift you can give any Pitts pilot is a strong, steady crosswind, so that he can actually see during the flare (and sideslip)
When I first got checked out in Pitts in California, we did the basic six-pack of spins, and during the landing, the crosswind component I had exceeded the demonstrated x/wind during certification, which helped me, as odd as that sounds.
Last edited by Hedley on Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blue Side Down
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shimmydampner
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Re: When did you finally "Get It?'
There is always something new to learn and always room for improvement on your skills.BuckNiner wrote:Coming up on the 500 hour mark and just wondering how long it takes to perfect this challenging art of flying!
Buck
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shimmydampner
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